Liverpool FC Forum

by **Kharhaz** » Sat May 15, 2010 12:17 am

s@int wrote:And at Valencia Bav he fell out with Jesus Garcia Pitarch too mate. Also Players, Alonso, Riera, Pennant, Crouch, Keane etc etc, Coaches, Heighway, Jose Ochotorena etc , Assistant manager Pako Ayestaran.Director Noel White, C.E.O. Parry, Managing Director Purslow, Owners Gillett & Hicks.

And those are only the ones we know about! How many others that we DON'T know about ?

So its not just idiots in the boardroom he has fallen out with, seems to me its anyone who says no to him

It was also that idiot Parry that appointed Rafa.

Right. If rafa is to stay we need to appoint someone influencial to counter rafas decisions on the pitch and on the training ground as clearly what he is doing isnt working. Rafa is surrounded by yes men, the club isnt coming first, its rafas will.

by **Keris** » Sat May 15, 2010 12:32 am

Maybe Rafa will change his methods/approach under different circumstances.
i.e without pressure from the board or being able to work with the players he really wants.

by **Kharhaz** » Sat May 15, 2010 12:44 am

Keris wrote:Maybe Rafa will change his methods/approach under different circumstances.
i.e without pressure from the board or being able to work with the players he really wants.

Aside from the rich clubs who can go out and buy the players they want, name a manager in the league who isnt under pressure from the board and can work with the players he really wants.

Rafa is under pressure moreso as most of the problems at the club on the pitch are caused by himself.

by **maguskwt** » Sat May 15, 2010 3:56 am

So wait... let me get this straight... I remember until a year ago, EVERYBODY (or almost) and their dog agrees for a fact that Parry is incompetent and screws up alot of transfer negotiations and contract renewals and that THAT is the reason why Rafa negotiated for more control in the transfer market. And I don't remember anyone on here saying " hey wait... hold on a minute... this is NOT good... Rafa should bear the responsibility of the failed transfer negotiations and contract renewals as well...". Instead all that was said was " Good Riddance".

And NOW... when only things are falling apart... it's "Rafa has too much control?" :laugh:

.... if you haven't noticed since Parry has gone, contract renewals has been fast and aggressive... transfers has been quickly done. If you haven't noticed, since Parry has gone, even though Rafa has more control, he wasn't backed financially for the past 2 seasons... but yeah it's ALL Rafa's fault...

I agree it has been a story of convenience... a story of convenience to easily change one's mind and blame Rafa on here...

by **maguskwt** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:18 am

s@int wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
s@int wrote:
maguskwt wrote:Lol so do you wanna be 6th or do you wanna be challengers?

If you want to be 6th stick with Rafa, if we want to be challengers we need a new manager.

If you want to be 6th just focus on asking for a new manager, If you want to challenge for the title, ask for new owners...

New owners won't necessarily mean any more money for players, a new manager however will mean a new approach on the field.

Or maybe you are one of those people who would rather see us even deeper in debt, just because spending huge amounts seems to be the only way the present manager can improve our performances?

I would prefer to spend little or even nothing on transfers in the short term if necessary to reduce our debt and get the stadium built. Relying instead on a new manager to get the best out of the players we have and making the most of what little money is available.

The most important goals are to reduce debt, build a stadium and get us back into the CL PLACES. With a profligate manager all three goals are under threat.

Very good plan [email]s@int...[/email] for that to happen we still need a new owner... and then let's hope if Hodgson or O'neill can do what you just said... but you contradict yourself by saying get a new manager to become challengers... your priority is not to challenge for the title but to only get back to top 4, reduce the debt and get the stadium built (which is fine by me)... because even Wenger when they were building the stadium could not challenge for the title...

My preference would be to get new owners and keep Rafa... because I believe Rafa can get us back into top 4... he's done it every year bar his 1st and this year and in the process broke the club's record points total 2 times. I don't trust the likes of Hodgson and O'neil. And in Europe there are few managers who does as well as Rafa...

by **Kharhaz** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:25 am

maguskwt wrote:So wait... let me get this straight... I remember until a year ago, EVERYBODY (or almost) and their dog agrees for a fact that Parry is incompetent and screws up alot of transfer negotiations and contract renewals and that THAT is the reason why Rafa negotiated for more control in the transfer market. And I don't remember anyone on here saying " hey wait... hold on a minute... this is NOT good... Rafa should bear the responsibility of the failed transfer negotiations and contract renewals as well...". Instead all that was said was " Good Riddance".

And NOW... when only things are falling apart... it's "Rafa has too much control?" .... if you haven't noticed since Parry has gone, contract renewals has been fast and aggressive... transfers has been quickly done. If you haven't noticed, since Parry has gone, even though Rafa has more control, he wasn't backed financially for the past 2 seasons... but yeah it's ALL Rafa's fault...

I agree it has been a story of convenience... a story of convenience to easily change one's mind and blame Rafa on here...

Are you kidding?

You really are clueless.

by **maguskwt** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:29 am

Kharhaz wrote:
maguskwt wrote:So wait... let me get this straight... I remember until a year ago, EVERYBODY (or almost) and their dog agrees for a fact that Parry is incompetent and screws up alot of transfer negotiations and contract renewals and that THAT is the reason why Rafa negotiated for more control in the transfer market. And I don't remember anyone on here saying " hey wait... hold on a minute... this is NOT good... Rafa should bear the responsibility of the failed transfer negotiations and contract renewals as well...". Instead all that was said was " Good Riddance".

And NOW... when only things are falling apart... it's "Rafa has too much control?" .... if you haven't noticed since Parry has gone, contract renewals has been fast and aggressive... transfers has been quickly done. If you haven't noticed, since Parry has gone, even though Rafa has more control, he wasn't backed financially for the past 2 seasons... but yeah it's ALL Rafa's fault...

I agree it has been a story of convenience... a story of convenience to easily change one's mind and blame Rafa on here...

Are you kidding?

You really are clueless.

No I'm not kidding... how am I clueless? I could very well say you're a d*ckhead without giving a reason as well...

by **maguskwt** » Sat May 15, 2010 4:48 am

I just don't understand where this Rafa can't be trusted with the transfers and therefore there should be a Director of Football to buy players non-sense come about. NOW that is being clueless. NO manager works like that. Just coaching the players he was given. Whether there is a Director of Football, CEO or Managing Director whatever they're called nowadays is in charge of transfers, he needs to work together with the Manager. If the Manager doesn't want a certain player, they cannot force a player into the squad. Isn't that why Mourinho never really used Shevchenko? A person like Parry serves to facilitate the transfers. In that sense Parry was doing a :censored:

job, fecking up transfer targets, being late at renewing contract talks with players, etc. THAT's why Rafa asked to be in control of transfers. Because he gets things done quickly. And NOBODY on here complained back then. Even in the NBA, even though their general managers are like what you would call 'coaches' they have their say in which players they want and if it's not an agreed upon player the trade won't take place. The two, Manager and Football Director HAS TO work together. If you want a Director of Football to make all the decisions to buy players and just Rafa to coach, then you might as well not have Rafa at all... have Sami Lee as our 'Manager'... :laugh:

by **Scottbot** » Sat May 15, 2010 8:03 am

maguskwt wrote:And NOW... when only things are falling apart... it's "Rafa has too much control?" .... if you haven't noticed since Parry has gone, contract renewals has been fast and aggressive... transfers has been quickly done. If you haven't noticed, since Parry has gone, even though Rafa has more control, he wasn't backed financially for the past 2 seasons... but yeah it's ALL Rafa's fault...

I agree it has been a story of convenience... a story of convenience to easily change one's mind and blame Rafa on here...

Give me a break Mags, I've yet to hear you try and defend Rafa's team selections, use of the personnel he does have, dogged refusal to change up his formation, terrible use of substitutions and the some of the ugliest and most turgid football we've seen in years this past season. I'm talking about the in-game stuff here, week to week. So so many mistakes.

You haven't tried to defend it because it can't be defended.

by **kazza** » Sat May 15, 2010 8:05 am

bigmick wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:THIS is gonna gut a few well loads actualy on here but Montse has told Rafa there not going anywere , they are staying put, Montse loves being a scouser Fact

I'll bet she loves Rafa being Liverpool manager too, why wouldn't she? Rafa loves it as well, where else in the World would he be able to have as much control as he does at Liverpool, and be able to finish seventh in the league and keep his job? The owners love it too. Who else could they get that would split the fan base so effectively and take the pressure off them so well?

That's why Rafa stays for next season. Not for any good reasons football wise, just because it's convenient for everybody.

Ahh, a typical Mick cheap shot, the comment is about Montse loving life in Liverpool and you turn it into critisism of the manager but I'll tell you where, almost any team will take him as a manager in a heartbeat, including teams he has already left.

Maybe people see what you don't (ie consistant improvement up until this year) and feel he is one of the best managers in the world, and worthy of another chance. Then again they may not have the luxury of seeing things through the eyes of someone that has no professional experience in football what so ever (oh yes, barring a couple of Sunday league appearances as a defender) :laugh:

Just maybe if they had your level of experience they will see things as you do.

by **Owzat** » Sat May 15, 2010 8:22 am

Who is responsible for.....................

Which players, positions and priorities Rafa spends his budget on? (regardless of how little/much)
What formation Rafa sticks rigidly to?
Who Rafa picks in his squad/team?
What defensive system Rafa picks regardless?
Who Rafa brings on as sub?
When Rafa brings subs on?
Who Rafa falls out with?

And consequently where we finish in the league. Many may bitch about the owners, lack of money etc, but net spend or whatever excuses might be offered for the squad, results etc, are people seriously suggesting that the below set of players is good enough only to finish SEVENTH?!?!?

REINA
Carragher
AGGER
Johnson
MASCHERANO
Kuyt
GERRARD
Aquilani
BENAYOUN
Rodriguez
TORRES

And any of the other players you might throw in, point being that is a set of players that managed properly should have done a damned sight better than it did. The much trotted out old pony about money doesn't excuse the following results :

LIV 1-3 AVL - villa are a decent side but a home defeat to them?!?
LIV 2-2 BIR - newly promoted side and we couldn't beat them at home, not that we've beaten them in the league under Rafa
BLA 0-0 LIV - very ordinary rovers side, couldn't even score against them
LIV 0-0 FUL - despite Woy's 'achievements' this season, we couldn't even score against a side with one away win, 11 away points and that conceded 31 goals on its travels
WLV 0-0 LIV - no goals against newly promoted Wolves
HUL 0-0 LIV - I know it was playing out the season but we could have finished sixth with a win against a relegated side and we didn't even score - they've conceded nearly as many goals at home as Fulham have away!
SUN 1-0 LIV - the beachball may have taken MOTM for the winner, but that was in the first 10 minutes and we couldn't even score
POR 2-0 LIV - bottom of the pile and penniless, not even scoring against a side that conceded 32 goals at home and 11 sides beat at fratton park
WIG 1-0 LIV - six points above the drop zone, again couldn't even score

Excuses for not beating that lot, or at least getting a better result? Can't be money or squad, unless any of those have better squads or players? Torres may not have played too many of those games, but we should still have better players without him than the opponents - bar maybe villa which is included because they are not fantastic and it was a home game.

Just SEVEN additional points would have seen us finish fourth, I'm thinking from that little lot we should have managed it.

by **maguskwt** » Sat May 15, 2010 9:49 am

Scottbot wrote:
maguskwt wrote:And NOW... when only things are falling apart... it's "Rafa has too much control?" .... if you haven't noticed since Parry has gone, contract renewals has been fast and aggressive... transfers has been quickly done. If you haven't noticed, since Parry has gone, even though Rafa has more control, he wasn't backed financially for the past 2 seasons... but yeah it's ALL Rafa's fault...

I agree it has been a story of convenience... a story of convenience to easily change one's mind and blame Rafa on here...

Give me a break Mags, I've yet to hear you try and defend Rafa's team selections, use of the personnel he does have, dogged refusal to change up his formation, terrible use of substitutions and the some of the ugliest and most turgid football we've seen in years this past season. I'm talking about the in-game stuff here, week to week. So so many mistakes.

You haven't tried to defend it because it can't be defended.

Well Scott it's because I was responding to all these ridiculous accusations which does not relate to football at all... Rafa has become the scapegoat for anything and everything that's gone wrong for this club. By all means criticize his strategy, his substiutions, his formations, his purchase of Aquilani etc etc... you have your own opinions and I have my own opinions on those things. But to say that Rafa is an unambitious yes-man and that's why the owners are keeping him or that we should have a Football Director to choose which players to target for because Rafa cannot be trusted with funds or that Rafa is asking to keep all the money from transfers because he has fallen out with Gerrard and Torres and he wants to sell them is pure rubbish...So why are you blaming me for responding to these accusations when the accusations nowadays are in itself not football related? :laugh:

And to get the record straight, I myself don't see Rafa as blameless... he has made some poor decisions in building the squad. Here are some of my criticisms:

1. He sold Riise when Riise still had alot to offer. I would like to point out here that back then on here the majority of you were giving stick to Riise like you give stick to Kuyt. I was one of the few who was defending him and when he was sold most people on here didn't bat an eyelid.

2. He sold Finnan who was one of the most consistent performers.

3. He sold Bellamy. We should've kept him because he has passion and he is a decent back-up.

4. He bought Aquilani when we needed an immediate reinforcement to replace Alonso.

5. I don't know what happened with the Robbie Keane fiasco but it looked ugly. Plus we didn't bring in replacement for him.

6. During the Alonso deal to Real Madrid, if Rafa didn't have any money to spend, he should've brokered a player + cash deal for Huntelaar.

As for refusal to change up his formations and personel last season... I just don't get it... if he chops and changes it's rotation... if he doesn't he's being stubborn and an ego-maniac isn't it? Make up your mind people! :laugh:

Seriously though... this season he didn't have much choice because of injuries and Aquilani not becoming fit fast enough.

by **Ben Patrick** » Sat May 15, 2010 9:59 am

Who said Rafa was a yes man mags

The thing about changing formations and personnel is to do with him sticking with a formation all season that only works really when you have Torres as the striker.
Ngog on his own upfront has killed us this season. Yet Rafa has persisted all season long.

by **tubby** » Sat May 15, 2010 10:11 am

s@int wrote:
bavlondon wrote:
s@int wrote:
Greavesie wrote:
s@int wrote:Certainly if the poster believes that everyone always plots against our manager its a great piece, if however one considers who is the only constant character in all these charades both at our club and at others one might come to a very different conclusion. The list of cartoon villains has become rather too long now

do you think Rafa's the only problem? surely you recognise that 'senior sources' are also at least part of the problem...

I believe there is a definate problem between the board and the manager. No doubt there are faults on BOTH SIDES, but taking Rafa's history of problematic relationships into account I would doubt that he is the innocent party sobbing gently on the sidelines.

To lose one board member Mr Benitez, may be regarded as a misfortune, to lose another looks like carelessness. (to misquote Oscar)

Saint you don't work for Liverpool Football Club so you cant really just assume he is a problem. At the end of the day if he was given a proper budget in the first place we wouldn't even be discussing this. Maybe you can take into account our history of having idiots at board level? After all it was Moores and Parry combined who sold us to the yanks.

And at Valencia Bav he fell out with Jesus Garcia Pitarch too mate. Also Players, Alonso, Riera, Pennant, Crouch, Keane etc etc, Coaches, Heighway, Jose Ochotorena etc , Assistant manager Pako Ayestaran.Director Noel White, C.E.O. Parry, Managing Director Purslow, Owners Gillett & Hicks.

And those are only the ones we know about! How many others that we DON'T know about ?

So its not just idiots in the boardroom he has fallen out with, seems to me its anyone who says no to him

It was also that idiot Parry that appointed Rafa.

Could it also be that Rafa being the nice guy that he is choses to work with clubs that are not the richest in their league. He tries to get sucess the hard way and when people say they will support him and dont then he has a right to be angry.

He signed a 5 year contract and didn't even get the money he was promised. He was never told that money was also for renewing new contracts. How would you feel if you had that happen to you on the back of last season and having just sold one of the best players in the world? Id be pretty :censored:

off too mate.

It seems your hatred towards Rafa is blinding the real issue which is the ownership. Id fear for the club if Rafa left and the owners were still here as no other top manager would touch this club with a bargepole after what they have done. And then watch the top players also walk out the door.

But at least Rafa will be gone right? :laugh:

by **Ben Patrick** » Sat May 15, 2010 10:22 am

Bav, now Rafa is with us because he chose not to work with the richest club in the league ?
If you seriously believe that then i am shocked.

The Alonso one keeps cropping up, he had to sell a world class player and didnt get the money to replace him.

Err no mate, he didnt, he could have not treating him like sh!te the previous summer for one.
And he could have said your going nowhere son, your on a long term contract.

HIS OWN DECISIONS MATE !!

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