Liverpool FC Forum

[Thommo's perm]

good post LFC2007 and there`s some good posts further up the page by scottbot and thommo`s perm as well.
there`s actually some good posters on these boards.

And some sh'it ones as well (no need to mention names)

[red till i die!!]

The FA cup is well within reach but to get fourth now would take a huge effort, maybe 10 wins in 12 or something of that order.

How does that leave our season? Well, success in the League Cup is progress on its own terms and the lack of progress in the league likewise. The League Cup win ends six seasons without a trophy, it gave the fans a day to savour at Wembley, and some of the players their first experience of winning a major trophy. You can never take away from us the fact that we've played in all the major cup competitions and won in the most dramatic of fashion in all of them. In the league, meanwhile, we're in a strikingly similar position to where we were at the same stage last season (a point better off, but four points further behind fourth with a game in hand). That's what the results tell us but like Kenny said, this is to ignore the teams performances and what they tell us about the team going forward.

For me, they tell of a side that does a satisfactory job in all but the final third of the pitch and in particular in the final act of goalscoring. In defence, we are miles further forward from where we used to be. Skrtel's form from since Kenny arrived has improved beyond all recognition and he alongside Agger have formed a rock solid defensive partnership that many doubted would succeed. Enrique has come in and been an instant hit, solving a problem we spent years trying to address unsuccessfully with the likes of Insua, Dossena and Aurelio, and, at right back, Johnson has had his best season for the club so far. At best, most of us wonder whether or not we need an extra CB as back up for Agger/Skrtel, but we no longer demand a complete revamp in that dept. They're all at a good age, too, and this is to say nothing of the youngsters we've coming through behind them: Kelly, Flanagan, Robinson, Coates.

In the attack, we've a lot more work to do in, though it's fair to say we've more than held our own in most games this season. It's a good measure of creativity and a lot of cutting edge that we lack. The stat's about hitting the woodwork speak for themselves, as does the number of times the oppo goalie has come to Anfield and played an absolute blinder. That said, it wouldn't repeatedly happen if it was purely luck, so we need to realise that serious change is needed. One top striker won't suddenly solve all of our attacking problems. The midfielders have also lacked for contribution in terms of end product whereas they should all be getting at least four or five league goals/assists a season when fit. Suarez, despite his mercurial talent, hasn't been prolific with us, either, and for a player of his ability, theres no reason he can't get 15 a season. Surrounding him with better players would be a start, but I think that on a personal level, he needs a to gain bit more composure in front of goal. Sometimes he's just too eager for his own good.

You don't normally rely on defenders for many goals, but it is something else to work on. Skrtel has a couple already in the league, Johnson has one, while Agger and Enrique have both had some unbelievable chances without scoring. We should remember, too, that when one problem is solved, new problems often arise. If we improve in the attack, we have to make sure to go on being as solid in defence. We can't necessarily be sure that Skrtel won't revert to his old dodgy self, less still that Agger's injuries will recur, and if if this comes to pass we need to manage it.

It's also never a bad idea to benchmark against the best to see how you might improve. If the template for success is there, why not look to learn something from it? Can we look at the likes of Downing and Henderson and say that they compare favourably to the likes of Silva and Nasri, Mata and Sturridge, Young and Valencia? If not, why not, then set about to change it. This is my own view, but I think it would be naive to think that coaching alone would be sufficient to make the necessary improvements in these positions. There are certain abilities that you just can't learn, so it's going to take new players I think, probably new signings. A striker or two, a winger or two, and a midfielder would be the emphasis I would have in the forthcoming window, though mindful all the time not to ignore the defence, just in case there are deals to be had.

Who do I see being the man in charge to make these changes? Kenny, of course. He deserves a chance to build on the progress that's unquestionably been made since he arrived at the club, as well to rectify the mistakes he's made. I notice that the same people who are keen for a change in our manager felt that AVB deserved more time at Chelsea, despite having taking over a side that finished second last season and spending tens of millions on new players. The irony. Maybe they are just incredibly biased towards their own opinions?

good post

[Scottbot]

The FA cup is well within reach but to get fourth now would take a huge effort, maybe 10 wins in 12 or something of that order.

How does that leave our season? Well, success in the League Cup is progress on its own terms and the lack of progress in the league likewise. The League Cup win ends six seasons without a trophy, it gave the fans a day to savour at Wembley, and some of the players their first experience of winning a major trophy. You can never take away from us the fact that we've played in all the major cup competitions and won in the most dramatic of fashion in all of them. In the league, meanwhile, we're in a strikingly similar position to where we were at the same stage last season (a point better off, but four points further behind fourth with a game in hand). That's what the results tell us but like Kenny said, this is to ignore the teams performances and what they tell us about the team going forward.

For me, they tell of a side that does a satisfactory job in all but the final third of the pitch and in particular in the final act of goalscoring. In defence, we are miles further forward from where we used to be. Skrtel's form from since Kenny arrived has improved beyond all recognition and he alongside Agger have formed a rock solid defensive partnership that many doubted would succeed. Enrique has come in and been an instant hit, solving a problem we spent years trying to address unsuccessfully with the likes of Insua, Dossena and Aurelio, and, at right back, Johnson has had his best season for the club so far. At best, most of us wonder whether or not we need an extra CB as back up for Agger/Skrtel, but we no longer demand a complete revamp in that dept. They're all at a good age, too, and this is to say nothing of the youngsters we've coming through behind them: Kelly, Flanagan, Robinson, Coates.

In the attack, we've a lot more work to do in, though it's fair to say we've more than held our own in most games this season. It's a good measure of creativity and a lot of cutting edge that we lack. The stat's about hitting the woodwork speak for themselves, as does the number of times the oppo goalie has come to Anfield and played an absolute blinder. That said, it wouldn't repeatedly happen if it was purely luck, so we need to realise that serious change is needed. One top striker won't suddenly solve all of our attacking problems. The midfielders have also lacked for contribution in terms of end product whereas they should all be getting at least four or five league goals/assists a season when fit. Suarez, despite his mercurial talent, hasn't been prolific with us, either, and for a player of his ability, theres no reason he can't get 15 a season. Surrounding him with better players would be a start, but I think that on a personal level, he needs a to gain bit more composure in front of goal. Sometimes he's just too eager for his own good.

You don't normally rely on defenders for many goals, but it is something else to work on. Skrtel has a couple already in the league, Johnson has one, while Agger and Enrique have both had some unbelievable chances without scoring. We should remember, too, that when one problem is solved, new problems often arise. If we improve in the attack, we have to make sure to go on being as solid in defence. We can't necessarily be sure that Skrtel won't revert to his old dodgy self, less still that Agger's injuries will recur, and if if this comes to pass we need to manage it.

It's also never a bad idea to benchmark against the best to see how you might improve. If the template for success is there, why not look to learn something from it? Can we look at the likes of Downing and Henderson and say that they compare favourably to the likes of Silva and Nasri, Mata and Sturridge, Young and Valencia? If not, why not, then set about to change it. This is my own view, but I think it would be naive to think that coaching alone would be sufficient to make the necessary improvements in these positions. There are certain abilities that you just can't learn, so it's going to take new players I think, probably new signings. A striker or two, a winger or two, and a midfielder would be the emphasis I would have in the forthcoming window, though mindful all the time not to ignore the defence, just in case there are deals to be had.

Who do I see being the man in charge to make these changes? Kenny, of course. He deserves a chance to build on the progress that's unquestionably been made since he arrived at the club, as well to rectify the mistakes he's made. I notice that the same people who are keen for a change in our manager felt that AVB deserved more time at Chelsea, despite having taking over a side that finished second last season and spending tens of millions on new players. The irony. Maybe they are just incredibly biased towards their own opinions?

I'll second that, cracking post fella and a spot on assessment of where we are on the playing front as well.

[Penguins]

So this is now our measure of success?
7th in the league and a league cup win and all is fine...
How the mighty have fallen...
So a finish outside the top 4 and a league cup next season again and its plain sailing..?

[Scottbot]

So this is now our measure of success?
7th in the league and a league cup win and all is fine...
How the mighty have fallen...
So a finish outside the top 4 and a league cup next season again and its plain sailing..?

Don't be so dramatic. Look where we were 14 months ago. Look where we were 2 years ago. In a right fookin mess is where. It's all relative, sure compare this season to many of the glorious seasons of yesteryear and it's pretty bleak and of course everyone isn't saying it's tickety boo and we're happy with the League Cup BUT it doesn't mean we have to walk around with bandages on our wrists and a gun to our head like so many of our fan base.

[Thommo's perm]

So this is now our measure of success?
7th in the league and a league cup win and all is fine...
How the mighty have fallen...
So a finish outside the top 4 and a league cup next season again and its plain sailing..?

As you get older you realise that sometimes you have to accept things. Nobody believes that 7th and a cup is good enough. But we must be realistic and if thats what happens we have to accept it. We can have all the expectations and demands we want but if we have tried or best then theres not much else we can do.
Of course we can imagine what things would have been like with someone else in charge but thats hypothetical. We know that KK will not be happy with 7th and a cup and will be trying his damnedest to rectify it next season.
Its not plain sailing at all, but its not made any easier when pr'icks are calling for his sacking only to be replaced by someone who has made a living by being a mercenary.

[Dalglish]

Theres not a lot I can say that hasn't already been said with some notable posts from Scottbott, LFC 2007and Thommo's Perm.

In the final analysis it's all about expectation over reality. Many fans (particularly the older ones like me !) don't get caught up in the immediate instant solutions that are often demanded by a generation weaned on SKY, Internet Forums and Phone Ins.

I'm not in a position to effect any real change within the club as I don't work there nor have much influence other than being a paying customer (isn't that what Fans are known as these days ?;)) However I am in a position to support all that is good and DIFFERENT about Liverpool Football Club.

We are not Chelsea so lets stop calling for our manager to be replaced just over a year into the job. Your living on another planet if you believe Maureen would come here and I for one wouldn't want him anyway cos despite his ability to get the most out of the team the man's got a massive need to court all the publicity and adulation.

18 months ago we were in the High Court wrestling the club from the greasy fingers of Hicks and Gillet, in the relagation zone, playing football and didn't have a pot to in. Many would be wise to remember that.

Walk on ................It's what we do

[yckatbjywtbiastkamb]

well said lads

[Kerry07]

So this is now our measure of success?
7th in the league and a league cup win and all is fine...
How the mighty have fallen...
So a finish outside the top 4 and a league cup next season again and its plain sailing..?

Don't be so dramatic. Look where we were 14 months ago. Look where we were 2 years ago. In a right fookin mess is where. It's all relative, sure compare this season to many of the glorious seasons of yesteryear and it's pretty bleak and of course everyone isn't saying it's tickety boo and we're happy with the League Cup BUT it doesn't mean we have to walk around with bandages on our wrists and a gun to our head like so many of our fan base.

2 years ago.... we had 63pts (1.74 per game) and finished 7th
today ........... we have 39pts (1.5 per game) and sit 7th

so statistically we are worse off, and player wise are 70m down on average british signings on high wages. We are the 12th lowest scorers, and have 4 wins at home this season.

Was this your point?

I am in no doubt that the one thing keeping some from calling a spade a spade, is the fact a certain Kenny Dalglish is manager. He was afterall appointed by the fans, so the same fans are hardly gonna do so. One openly admits he would never do so...the blinkers are staying firmly on.


The best attacking pass and move football of the end of last season;

Liverpool 5 - 0 Birmingham; Reina, Flanagan, Carragher, Skrtel, Robinson, Spearing, Lucas, Maxi, Kuyt, Meireles, Suarez

Liverpool 3 - 0 Newcastle; Reina, Flanagan, Carragher, Skrtel, Johnson, Kuyt, Spearing, Lucas, Meireles, Maxi, Suarez

Fulham 2 - 5 Liverpool; Reina, Johnson, Flanagan, Carragher, Skrtel, Maxi, Lucas, Spearing, Meireles, Kuyt, Suarez

Thirteen goals in three consecutive games. Common denonimator; Maxi, Kuyt, Meireles, Suarez. Not just the goals, the performances

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/9475026.stm
"It was a sensational display from Liverpool, who have now scored 13 goals in their last three games and have climbed from 12th to fifth in the table since Kenny Dalglish took over."

He keeps that team, and adds one or two technical players, we have a very different season. Instead, he forked out 70million on average british players, put them into the team, and we havent looked anywhere near the same side. From 13 goals in 3 games, to 30 goals in 26 games.

After those three scintilating performances, where the movement and link up play of the forwards pulled the defences all over the place, Andy Carroll was put in against Spurs in what was a UEFA Cup decider, and the performance was utterly dreadful (i was there.. i seen the entire thing).

Fast forward to this season, and the Arsenal game... the movement of the forwards was superb.. no static player ruining the movement of the attacking play or restricting Suarez's space to run. The same link up we saw last season was back.. Kuyts two flicks through to Suarez that set him clear.

Its his british signings that has cost us dear in the league this season. The signings were a mistake, and he compounds it by picking them. Unless he rectifies this error, it will be same again next season.

The league table doesnt lie.

[Kenny Kan]

So this is now our measure of success?
7th in the league and a league cup win and all is fine...
How the mighty have fallen...
So a finish outside the top 4 and a league cup next season again and its plain sailing..?

Don't be so dramatic. Look where we were 14 months ago. Look where we were 2 years ago. In a right fookin mess is where. It's all relative, sure compare this season to many of the glorious seasons of yesteryear and it's pretty bleak and of course everyone isn't saying it's tickety boo and we're happy with the League Cup BUT it doesn't mean we have to walk around with bandages on our wrists and a gun to our head like so many of our fan base.

2 years ago.... we had 63pts (1.74 per game) and finished 7th
today ........... we have 39pts (1.5 per game) and sit 7th

so statistically we are worse off, and player wise are 70m down on average british signings on high wages. We are the 12th lowest scorers, and have 4 wins at home this season.

Was this your point?

I am in no doubt that the one thing keeping some from calling a spade a spade, is the fact a certain Kenny Dalglish is manager. He was afterall appointed by the fans, so the same fans are hardly gonna do so. One openly admits he would never do so...the blinkers are staying firmly on.


The best attacking pass and move football of the end of last season;

Liverpool 5 - 0 Birmingham; Reina, Flanagan, Carragher, Skrtel, Robinson, Spearing, Lucas, Maxi, Kuyt, Meireles, Suarez

Liverpool 3 - 0 Newcastle; Reina, Flanagan, Carragher, Skrtel, Johnson, Kuyt, Spearing, Lucas, Meireles, Maxi, Suarez

Fulham 2 - 5 Liverpool; Reina, Johnson, Flanagan, Carragher, Skrtel, Maxi, Lucas, Spearing, Meireles, Kuyt, Suarez

Thirteen goals in three consecutive games. Common denonimator; Maxi, Kuyt, Meireles, Suarez. Not just the goals, the performances

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/9475026.stm
"It was a sensational display from Liverpool, who have now scored 13 goals in their last three games and have climbed from 12th to fifth in the table since Kenny Dalglish took over."

He keeps that team, and adds one or two technical players, we have a very different season. Instead, he forked out 70million on average british players, put them into the team, and we havent looked anywhere near the same side. From 13 goals in 3 games, to 30 goals in 26 games.

After those three scintilating performances, where the movement and link up play of the forwards pulled the defences all over the place, Andy Carroll was put in against Spurs in what was a UEFA Cup decider, and the performance was utterly dreadful (i was there.. i seen the entire thing).

Fast forward to this season, and the Arsenal game... the movement of the forwards was superb.. no static player ruining the movement of the attacking play or restricting Suarez's space to run. The same link up we saw last season was back.. Kuyts two flicks through to Suarez that set him clear.

Its his british signings that has cost us dear in the league this season. The signings were a mistake, and he compounds it by picking them. Unless he rectifies this error, it will be same again next season.

The league table doesnt lie.

It's not having "blinkers" on though, I think this is the point you are missing. Rather, it's about having confidence and patience in man who knows the club better than anyone. I think Kenny himself would put his hands up first and say 'enough is enough', it's not working - he'd do that against the detriment of the club.

The season hasn't been the best league wise, nobodies wet enough to believe otherwise. But it comes back to having confidence and patience in a man and squad over a given period of time. Not, three quarters of a season!

Obviously it isn't good enough for you, the ilk, the nature of the 'stamp my feet I want it now' syndrome. Your "objectivity" is subjectivity and the amount of negative cr@p you bleat is akin to that of a plastic flag waving, Chelsea supporter.

[pixio1]

i would say give kenny and the team more time.

[Kenny Kan]

i would say give kenny and the team more time.

In 8 years of being here, that was most definitely the best post you've ever produced. Keep it up fella. 

[Reg]

i would say give kenny and the team more time.

In 8 years of being here, that was most definitely the best post you've ever produced. Keep it up fella. 

Apart from his grammar.

[metalhead]

Some brilliant posts, it's safe to say that the negative ones are the minority. We are a work in progress

[MickBarry]

What Kenny has in common with Rafa is the star striker walking out on the club within days of his arriving. In both cases - Owen and Torres, obviously - that move damaged both club and player. In the case of Torres, it gave us £50 million to spend with the proviso that we either spent it in 48 hours or waited till the summer.

We took a gamble on Carroll and it hasn't paid off. But it was a gamble forced on the club by the timing of the Torres transfer. It's not a big deal to get that wrong, but it's the mark of a great manager to square up to past mistakes and deal with them.  Shankly did it - Tony Hately was not worth a ha'p'nny, good call, move him on - and this summer is when Dalglish/Comolli will have to make a few hard decisions to make. It could be the making or breaking of them.

Course, the other thing we could try doing is just shifting the posts and crossbar upwards and outwards by about an inch.