Moving forward - Now that the race for 4th is over

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Kerry07 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:25 pm

kartiek wrote:Well, it seems like Mourinho was found "house hunting" in London recently.

Considering it's been made pretty clear that he doesn't want to stay with Madrid next season, it's highly likely he's going to be at Tottenham or Chelsea next season.

If he ends up at either (dont see Abramovich taking him back tho.. ego wouldnt allow it).. then along with Man U and Man city, thats another slot in the top 4 taken for the forseeable.

It would make coming 5th for us an achievement.

I dont think people realise just how close we are to becoming an also ran. Mourinho is the one sure fire bet that would mean we wouldnt.
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Postby Benny The Noon » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:44 pm

Maureen will never be manager of Liverpool so please get that thought out of your head.
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Postby Scottbot » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:06 pm

Obviously there is still a small chance we could push on and get that 4th spot but it now seems very very unlikely and I must admit I haven't really believed we would qualify for a little while now. However, I'm not sure it's the disaster that so many in the media and our fan base paint it to be. For so many years I was so scared of failing to qualify because it almost certainly meant that we would lose certain players like a Gerrard, a Torres or an Alonso but that fear has gone for me now. Stevie is going nowhere, he's clearly made his peace and will see out his career with the club and the only two players I think we have to worry about potentially having their heads turned are Reina and Suarez. Suarez hasn't been here long and with the year he's just had and the incredible support he has received from the club and the fans I don't think he will be going anywhere. Reina might be a different story but again, if he sees progress being made I suspect he will give it another season to see if we can make it back into the big time.

Also, I wonder if we're actually ready for the demands of Champions League whilst putting up a decent challenge on the domestic front? The club have spent some money but much of it has been on developmental players like Henderson and Coates whilst Carroll is having to learn how to play the game all over again. It doesn't look like the owners will be big spenders in the summer (although I'd hope there will be money to spend on a couple of quality players) so it seems to me that the onus is very much on developing the talented (but unproven) group of youngsters we have coming through in the reserves at the moment. The next gen tournament has been a good experience for these lads but reserve team footy isn't the greatest (it has essentially become an under-19 league) so what better place to truly blood these kids and get them the necessary experience than in next season's Europa League. Clearly we will never be able to match the financial muscle of City or Chelsea so it seems our best hope of getting back into the title mix over the next 4-5 years is based on producing 2-3 absolutely top quality players through the academy plus a few solid squad players as well. Sterling (for me) is going to be a star, i'm convinced of it and I expect Jack Robinson to be a top top player for many years as well. Flanno looks to have the makings of a good pro and Suso, Morgan and Ngoo all have a chance at the next level but only if they get the opportunities to play.

I don't know that the owners see it in quite the same way but I'm honestly not that bothered that we're not going to make 4th spot season and I'd almost rather we focus wholly on the FA Cup and see if we can't blood a few of these kids between now and the end of the season.
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Postby Benny The Noon » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:21 pm

A voice of reason at last - Great post Scott
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Postby SouthCoastShankly » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:25 pm

Although I am preparing for the worst I will not commit to deciding whether we will have CL football next year until march is over. If at the end of this month we are still way off 4th even after the game in hand then I'll hold my hands up and say its over.

However if we are within 5 points with 7 games to go then no one could write us off. Fingers crossed.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:26 pm

Scottbot wrote:Obviously there is still a small chance we could push on and get that 4th spot but it now seems very very unlikely and I must admit I haven't really believed we would qualify for a little while now. However, I'm not sure it's the disaster that so many in the media and our fan base paint it to be. For so many years I was so scared of failing to qualify because it almost certainly meant that we would lose certain players like a Gerrard, a Torres or an Alonso but that fear has gone for me now. Stevie is going nowhere, he's clearly made his peace and will see out his career with the club and the only two players I think we have to worry about potentially having their heads turned are Reina and Suarez. Suarez hasn't been here long and with the year he's just had and the incredible support he has received from the club and the fans I don't think he will be going anywhere. Reina might be a different story but again, if he sees progress being made I suspect he will give it another season to see if we can make it back into the big time.

Also, I wonder if we're actually ready for the demands of Champions League whilst putting up a decent challenge on the domestic front? The club have spent some money but much of it has been on developmental players like Henderson and Coates whilst Carroll is having to learn how to play the game all over again. It doesn't look like the owners will be big spenders in the summer (although I'd hope there will be money to spend on a couple of quality players) so it seems to me that the onus is very much on developing the talented (but unproven) group of youngsters we have coming through in the reserves at the moment. The next gen tournament has been a good experience for these lads but reserve team footy isn't the greatest (it has essentially become an under-19 league) so what better place to truly blood these kids and get them the necessary experience than in next season's Europa League. Clearly we will never be able to match the financial muscle of City or Chelsea so it seems our best hope of getting back into the title mix over the next 4-5 years is based on producing 2-3 absolutely top quality players through the academy plus a few solid squad players as well. Sterling (for me) is going to be a star, i'm convinced of it and I expect Jack Robinson to be a top top player for many years as well. Flanno looks to have the makings of a good pro and Suso, Morgan and Ngoo all have a chance at the next level but only if they get the opportunities to play.

I don't know that the owners see it in quite the same way but I'm honestly not that bothered that we're not going to make 4th spot season and I'd almost rather we focus wholly on the FA Cup and see if we can't blood a few of these kids between now and the end of the season.

A rational, reasoned response.
Some would have us believe we are on the edge of a cliff just about to fall into oblivion if we dont get fourth spot. These knobs are using phrases like "also rans" and "give Mourinho the job" Fu*king ar'seholes.
It will not be the end of the world and the owners wont fu'ck off. Life will go on and we will come back stronger. For all this doom and gloom talk we have won a cup, qualified for Europe and might win the FA cup. So we have already gone forward
Not bad for "also rans"
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Postby roberto green » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:46 pm

I'd love to see Kenny be a success again, but I don't count the cup win last week as anything major, a good day out but that's it, you have to admit its already forgotten and I would have 4th place any day

I love Kenny to bits for what he has done for our club but as they say love is blind and I just feel he won't be able to take us any further in the league, he's spent a shed load of money on overpriced, over hyped British players and if this was Rafa who had wasted this money on Carroll etc he would of been crucified,

if eveyone lets their head rule their heart instead of the other way around we would come to the same conclusion.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:03 pm

roberto green wrote:I'd love to see Kenny be a success again, but I don't count the cup win last week as anything major, a good day out but that's it, you have to admit its already forgotten and I would have 4th place any day

I love Kenny to bits for what he has done for our club but as they say love is blind and I just feel he won't be able to take us any further in the league, he's spent a shed load of money on overpriced, over hyped British players and if this was Rafa who had wasted this money on Carroll etc he would of been crucified,

if eveyone lets their head rule their heart instead of the other way around we would come to the same conclusion.

The minute you lose confidence as a supporter your natural reaction is to change the manager. This is brought on by the fear of failure and then the thought that if we had got rid of him sooner, the new one would have progressed us and we wouldnt be in the situation we are now.
It is understandable, especially among fickle football fans because this is (moreso nowdays) how things work in our culture. Its not working, so change it.
If we were sliding down the table with no hope of stopping it, I would consider thinking about changing the manager. If we were playing sh'ite and getting beat by teams who were supposedly not as good as us, I would consider thinking about changing the manager. If he didnt get us, didnt know what we expected and wasnt willing to give everything he had to bring the glory days back to this glorius club, I would consider thinking about changing the manager.
But KK is the best person we could get at this moment in time for what is needed. Let no-one kid you that Mourhino would care as much, love us as much and give as much as KK. When he is not good enough to do the job I believe he would step down rather than do anything to harm LFC.
Have faith
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Postby Kerry07 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:09 pm

roberto green wrote:I'd love to see Kenny be a success again, but I don't count the cup win last week as anything major, a good day out but that's it, you have to admit its already forgotten and I would have 4th place any day

I love Kenny to bits for what he has done for our club but as they say love is blind and I just feel he won't be able to take us any further in the league, he's spent a shed load of money on overpriced, over hyped British players and if this was Rafa who had wasted this money on Carroll etc he would of been crucified,

if eveyone lets their head rule their heart instead of the other way around we would come to the same conclusion.

here here.

I have stated numerous times i dont have the affiliation to Kenny that many others do. I never saw him as a player, and i wasnt yet a fan of the club when he was manager the first time. What i know of Kenny is highlight reels on LFCTV, youtube, and old videos i have...and i appreciate what hes done in the past.

This is 2012. We judge Kenny on now, not the past.

Kenny hasnt been in work for over a decade. He got the job here because of the fans.. and bar the british signings he has done a good job. But ultimately its the signings that make or break you. The day he went for Andy Carroll is the day he put himself behind the 8 ball. The performances at the tail end of last season were excellent... Suarez, Kuyt, Mereiles, Maxi.. those four in attack were superb. The problems started when he put in his british signings.. the fluidity, movement and wonderful link up play that had occured before their introduction went out the window. We saw all his british signings against Cardiff.. in what was a quite toothless performance. Against Arsenal the play was back to what it was at the end of last season.. fast, great link up play (particularly between Suarez and Kuyt).. the Arsenal defence were pulled all over the place.

If Kenny rectified the british signings this summer then we would be in a very good place. I cant see this happening tho.
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Postby roberto green » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:15 pm

Thommo's perm wrote:
roberto green wrote:I'd love to see Kenny be a success again, but I don't count the cup win last week as anything major, a good day out but that's it, you have to admit its already forgotten and I would have 4th place any day

I love Kenny to bits for what he has done for our club but as they say love is blind and I just feel he won't be able to take us any further in the league, he's spent a shed load of money on overpriced, over hyped British players and if this was Rafa who had wasted this money on Carroll etc he would of been crucified,

if eveyone lets their head rule their heart instead of the other way around we would come to the same conclusion.

The minute you lose confidence as a supporter your natural reaction is to change the manager. This is brought on by the fear of failure and then the thought that if we had got rid of him sooner, the new one would have progressed us and we wouldnt be in the situation we are now.
It is understandable, especially among fickle football fans because this is (moreso nowdays) how things work in our culture. Its not working, so change it.
If we were sliding down the table with no hope of stopping it, I would consider thinking about changing the manager. If we were playing sh'ite and getting beat by teams who were supposedly not as good as us, I would consider thinking about changing the manager. If he didnt get us, didnt know what we expected and wasnt willing to give everything he had to bring the glory days back to this glorius club, I would consider thinking about changing the manager.
But KK is the best person we could get at this moment in time for what is needed. Let no-one kid you that Mourhino would care as much, love us as much and give as much as KK. When he is not good enough to do the job I believe he would step down rather than do anything to harm LFC.
Have faith
YNWA

I can reason with what your saying and can kind of agree but I honestly don't think he will lead us on to the next level, like you said and I totally agree that he was the best man at the right time and no one loves a club as a manager more than him but I honestly deep down don't think he will ever lead us on to major glory,

I never would like to be proven more wrong btw.
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Postby yckatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:18 pm

roberto green wrote:I'd love to see Kenny be a success again, but I don't count the cup win last week as anything major, a good day out but that's it, you have to admit its already forgotten and I would have 4th place any day

I love Kenny to bits for what he has done for our club but as they say love is blind and I just feel he won't be able to take us any further in the league, he's spent a shed load of money on overpriced, over hyped British players and if this was Rafa who had wasted this money on Carroll etc he would of been crucified,

if eveyone lets their head rule their heart instead of the other way around we would come to the same conclusion.

if we had our best team out every week and we were getting played off the park every week i could at least see your point mate.
but gerrard was missing for the first half of the season and we lost probably our most consistent player of the last 18 months with a terrible injury that will keep him out until next season. on top of that suarez has missed 9 games through suspension.
despite all that we have beaten chelsea twice at their place, beat city away, united at home and arsenal away.
we have thrown away a lot of points in the league but in most of the games we have been the better side and missed chances to win. look how often we`ve hit the post, were not :censored: we are just not clinical but thats not a reason to change the manager.
a lot of fans like to blame the new signings but it`s not all their fault, most fans would baulk at the idea of criticising reina but he has cost us points this season, i thought he should have done better with both goals yesterday, against fulham away he dropped a clanger that cost us the game, against norwich at home he cost us 2 points by running out to try and punch the ball but not getting there, against man city away we started the game great until he let a terrible goal in that bounced underneath him, there`s around 10 points lost and nothing to do with the new signings.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:32 pm

roberto green wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:
roberto green wrote:I'd love to see Kenny be a success again, but I don't count the cup win last week as anything major, a good day out but that's it, you have to admit its already forgotten and I would have 4th place any day

I love Kenny to bits for what he has done for our club but as they say love is blind and I just feel he won't be able to take us any further in the league, he's spent a shed load of money on overpriced, over hyped British players and if this was Rafa who had wasted this money on Carroll etc he would of been crucified,

if eveyone lets their head rule their heart instead of the other way around we would come to the same conclusion.

The minute you lose confidence as a supporter your natural reaction is to change the manager. This is brought on by the fear of failure and then the thought that if we had got rid of him sooner, the new one would have progressed us and we wouldnt be in the situation we are now.
It is understandable, especially among fickle football fans because this is (moreso nowdays) how things work in our culture. Its not working, so change it.
If we were sliding down the table with no hope of stopping it, I would consider thinking about changing the manager. If we were playing sh'ite and getting beat by teams who were supposedly not as good as us, I would consider thinking about changing the manager. If he didnt get us, didnt know what we expected and wasnt willing to give everything he had to bring the glory days back to this glorius club, I would consider thinking about changing the manager.
But KK is the best person we could get at this moment in time for what is needed. Let no-one kid you that Mourhino would care as much, love us as much and give as much as KK. When he is not good enough to do the job I believe he would step down rather than do anything to harm LFC.
Have faith
YNWA

I can reason with what your saying and can kind of agree but I honestly don't think he will lead us on to the next level, like you said and I totally agree that he was the best man at the right time and no one loves a club as a manager more than him but I honestly deep down don't think he will ever lead us on to major glory,

I never would like to be proven more wrong btw.

Maybe he wont lead us on to major glory? But can anyone guarantee anything? Who would have known that Rafa would lead us to a 5th European cup? I dont remember anyone saying "This is the man who will bring back the glory days and give us one of the most memorable nights of our lives" Do you?
Rafa never looked like winning the league. Even when we came second we knew he would never be able to do enough to win it.
Some are listening to people who, by their own admission havent got a Fu*king clue about KK. Footballs not about signings, its about results. Our results have been good, but not great. But thats no reason to talk about sacking our manager and bringing in an egotistical mercenary.
We are not blinded by love and KK is open for criticism. But not by ignorant bell hends who want instant success and are just looking to stick the knife in at any opportunity
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Postby LFC2007 » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:53 pm

The FA cup is well within reach but to get fourth now would take a huge effort, maybe 10 wins in 12 or something of that order.

How does that leave our season? Well, success in the League Cup is progress on its own terms and the lack of progress in the league likewise. The League Cup win ends six seasons without a trophy, it gave the fans a day to savour at Wembley, and some of the players their first experience of winning a major trophy. You can never take away from us the fact that we've played in all the major cup competitions and won in the most dramatic of fashion in all of them. In the league, meanwhile, we're in a strikingly similar position to where we were at the same stage last season (a point better off, but four points further behind fourth with a game in hand). That's what the results tell us but like Kenny said, this is to ignore the teams performances and what they tell us about the team going forward.

For me, they tell of a side that does a satisfactory job in all but the final third of the pitch and in particular in the final act of goalscoring. In defence, we are miles further forward from where we used to be. Skrtel's form from since Kenny arrived has improved beyond all recognition and he alongside Agger have formed a rock solid defensive partnership that many doubted would succeed. Enrique has come in and been an instant hit, solving a problem we spent years trying to address unsuccessfully with the likes of Insua, Dossena and Aurelio, and, at right back, Johnson has had his best season for the club so far. At best, most of us wonder whether or not we need an extra CB as back up for Agger/Skrtel, but we no longer demand a complete revamp in that dept. They're all at a good age, too, and this is to say nothing of the youngsters we've coming through behind them: Kelly, Flanagan, Robinson, Coates.

In the attack, we've a lot more work to do in, though it's fair to say we've more than held our own in most games this season. It's a good measure of creativity and a lot of cutting edge that we lack. The stat's about hitting the woodwork speak for themselves, as does the number of times the oppo goalie has come to Anfield and played an absolute blinder. That said, it wouldn't repeatedly happen if it was purely luck, so we need to realise that serious change is needed. One top striker won't suddenly solve all of our attacking problems. The midfielders have also lacked for contribution in terms of end product whereas they should all be getting at least four or five league goals/assists a season when fit. Suarez, despite his mercurial talent, hasn't been prolific with us, either, and for a player of his ability, theres no reason he can't get 15 a season. Surrounding him with better players would be a start, but I think that on a personal level, he needs a to gain bit more composure in front of goal. Sometimes he's just too eager for his own good.

You don't normally rely on defenders for many goals, but it is something else to work on. Skrtel has a couple already in the league, Johnson has one, while Agger and Enrique have both had some unbelievable chances without scoring. We should remember, too, that when one problem is solved, new problems often arise. If we improve in the attack, we have to make sure to go on being as solid in defence. We can't necessarily be sure that Skrtel won't revert to his old dodgy self, less still that Agger's injuries will recur, and if if this comes to pass we need to manage it.

It's also never a bad idea to benchmark against the best to see how you might improve. If the template for success is there, why not look to learn something from it? Can we look at the likes of Downing and Henderson and say that they compare favourably to the likes of Silva and Nasri, Mata and Sturridge, Young and Valencia? If not, why not, then set about to change it. This is my own view, but I think it would be naive to think that coaching alone would be sufficient to make the necessary improvements in these positions. There are certain abilities that you just can't learn, so it's going to take new players I think, probably new signings. A striker or two, a winger or two, and a midfielder would be the emphasis I would have in the forthcoming window, though mindful all the time not to ignore the defence, just in case there are deals to be had.

Who do I see being the man in charge to make these changes? Kenny, of course. He deserves a chance to build on the progress that's unquestionably been made since he arrived at the club, as well to rectify the mistakes he's made. I notice that the same people who are keen for a change in our manager felt that AVB deserved more time at Chelsea, despite having taking over a side that finished second last season and spending tens of millions on new players. The irony. Maybe they are just incredibly biased towards their own opinions?
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Postby yckatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:01 am

good post LFC2007 and there`s some good posts further up the page by scottbot and thommo`s perm as well.
there`s actually some good posters on these boards.
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Postby Scottbot » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:16 am

We haven't won a trophy since 2006. Kenny brought us a victorious Wembley day not 7 days ago and I can't believe some of the rubbish i've read in this thread. It actually strikes me as out an out ungrateful. I fuc...kin love that we won that League Cup and it's still pretty fresh in my mind, not forgotten. Regardless of our league finish this season and supposing we could add an Fa Cup to the cabinet (we're still in this competition yanno) anyone suggesting we need a new manager right now is gonna look like a bit of an idiot.
Last edited by Scottbot on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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