Liverpool FC Forum

[kazza]

People should remember the term 'defend from the front'. Once upon a time, way back in the history of football, there was no such thing as a defender. You had a GK and a load of guys trying to score. But those guys also had to stop the other guys scoring (in fact originally there wasn't even a 'keeper). The idea of positions came later. Someone once said "here's an idea, you hang back and if they get the ball, you're already back there". It didn't suddenly become that mans job to stop the other team scoring. He was there in case. It's still the job of the team to defend. Goalkeepers too were an added tactic. If the guy at the back (what's now known as a defender) didn't clear the danger, he wasn't blamed. He was a last resort anyway. It's the teams fault for letting the ball get up there. Of course the more times the team fails to stop the ball getting up there is more times the guy at the back has to deal with it. Some players are better at defending than others, but it's still a team game and need to take the pressure off our defence higher up the pitch.

Skrtel's not a bad defender. None of them are. We need the team as a whole to reduce the amount of situations our defenders need to deal with. Dosent matter who our defenders are, no defender can be expected to deal with the amount of attacks ours deal with and be expected to remain error free.

Not sure I agree with that.

A large element of our playing philosophy (this season) has been counter attacking football. When you playing a counter attacking style you openly invite attacks and pressure in the knowledge that when they make a mistake or possession switches you can capitalise with pace.

I prefer Rodgers stance that our defence are making the wrong choices that lead to mistakes.

To counter attack effectively you have to press the opposition and force a loss of possession. That is the first line of defence.

[SouthCoastShankly]

People should remember the term 'defend from the front'. Once upon a time, way back in the history of football, there was no such thing as a defender. You had a GK and a load of guys trying to score. But those guys also had to stop the other guys scoring (in fact originally there wasn't even a 'keeper). The idea of positions came later. Someone once said "here's an idea, you hang back and if they get the ball, you're already back there". It didn't suddenly become that mans job to stop the other team scoring. He was there in case. It's still the job of the team to defend. Goalkeepers too were an added tactic. If the guy at the back (what's now known as a defender) didn't clear the danger, he wasn't blamed. He was a last resort anyway. It's the teams fault for letting the ball get up there. Of course the more times the team fails to stop the ball getting up there is more times the guy at the back has to deal with it. Some players are better at defending than others, but it's still a team game and need to take the pressure off our defence higher up the pitch.

Skrtel's not a bad defender. None of them are. We need the team as a whole to reduce the amount of situations our defenders need to deal with. Dosent matter who our defenders are, no defender can be expected to deal with the amount of attacks ours deal with and be expected to remain error free.

Not sure I agree with that.

A large element of our playing philosophy (this season) has been counter attacking football. When you playing a counter attacking style you openly invite attacks and pressure in the knowledge that when they make a mistake or possession switches you can capitalise with pace.

I prefer Rodgers stance that our defence are making the wrong choices that lead to mistakes.

To counter attack effectively you have to press the opposition and force a loss of possession. That is the first line of defence.

Counter attacking football only presses deep, not high.

Attacking
You only have to observe the style of our football for a few minutes in a game to see that we will never force a pass forward if there is not enough room to do so. Time and time again we will recycle the ball and intentionally play back to the defence to draw out the opposition formation. Thus creating space behind to attack.

Defending/Regaining Possession
Rarely do we apply pressure high up other than the forward attacking players (mainly Suarez). We almost always will only start pressurising the opposition as a team once they enter our half. The key to counter attacking football is striking a balance of how much pressure to absorb before you force a change in possession.

[RedAnt]

I agree with your theory, SCS, and hopefully in time we'll get the balancing act right. But if you're defenders constantly need to deal with the ball, be it from open play or free kicks, then the balance is wrong. Let's take the two CBs and two CMs as the defensive unit, in this case the ball should be pressed by the CMs whilst the CBs create a (nowhere to go) barrier. Of course the full backs should be around too, but they're waiting to burn it up the pitch when possession is gained. But for all Gerro's and Hendo's qualities, both are naturally attack minded players. They make bad decisions such as going to ground when they should stand, or thinking they have more time on the ball than they do. This inevitably leaves the defenders having to leave the barrier which leaves gaps.

Players like Skrtel aren't smart or quick enough to pick up the pieces. He dosent have the grace or finesse to fit into our style. Agger and maybe Sahko are the closest we have. Skrtel's instinct is to get his nut on it and get it away. Really what we're aiming for is Total Football, with players at the very least comfortable in every position on the pitch.

[Stu the Red]

Counter attacking football only presses deep, not high.

Attacking
You only have to observe the style of our football for a few minutes in a game to see that we will never force a pass forward if there is not enough room to do so. Time and time again we will recycle the ball and intentionally play back to the defence to draw out the opposition formation. Thus creating space behind to attack.

Defending/Regaining Possession
Rarely do we apply pressure high up other than the forward attacking players (mainly Suarez). We almost always will only start pressurising the opposition as a team once they enter our half. The key to counter attacking football is striking a balance of how much pressure to absorb before you force a change in possession.

Wrong, a counter attack can be launched from anywhere on the pitch from a goal keeper to a striker deep in the opposition half. It completely depends on how you win a ball, its as simple as that. It doesn't matter where. Teams start attacking from the defence, so technically, most goals are of a counter attacking nature. It just so happens Liverpool are excellent at it. Liverpool also play a lot of forward passes. They attack at pace and with intent. Just because a team keeps possession of the ball does not mean they are not playing on the counter attack. All great teams do both and do both brilliantly. Counter attacking at speed is absolutely crucial to being a good side. Liverpool often pass the ball around at the back to create space for midfield players when Suarez is upfront and not the strikers. They get the attacking players on the ball high up the pitch.
This does change slightly when Suarez has to accomadate Sturridge.

And halfy half... often we apply pressure high up the pitch and this is a major part of our game plan. Coutinho, Sterling, Suarez, Henderson and both full backs press the ball high up the pitch. Liverpool also on occasions play a fairly high line which is exposing the weaknesses of some of the average players we have in the back five. We do tend to play different tactics at different times and usually we've got it pretty spot on this season, which is promising.

[RedAnt]

Counter attacking football only presses deep, not high.

Attacking
You only have to observe the style of our football for a few minutes in a game to see that we will never force a pass forward if there is not enough room to do so. Time and time again we will recycle the ball and intentionally play back to the defence to draw out the opposition formation. Thus creating space behind to attack.

Defending/Regaining Possession
Rarely do we apply pressure high up other than the forward attacking players (mainly Suarez). We almost always will only start pressurising the opposition as a team once they enter our half. The key to counter attacking football is striking a balance of how much pressure to absorb before you force a change in possession.

Wrong, a counter attack can be launched from anywhere on the pitch from a goal keeper to a striker deep in the opposition half. It completely depends on how you win a ball, its as simple as that. It doesn't matter where. Teams start attacking from the defence, so technically, most goals are of a counter attacking nature. It just so happens Liverpool are excellent at it. Liverpool also play a lot of forward passes. They attack at pace and with intent. Just because a team keeps possession of the ball does not mean they are not playing on the counter attack. All great teams do both and do both brilliantly. Counter attacking at speed is absolutely crucial to being a good side. Liverpool often pass the ball around at the back to create space for midfield players when Suarez is upfront and not the strikers. They get the attacking players on the ball high up the pitch.
This does change slightly when Suarez has to accomadate Sturridge.

And halfy half... often we apply pressure high up the pitch and this is a major part of our game plan. Coutinho, Sterling, Suarez, Henderson and both full backs press the ball high up the pitch. Liverpool also on occasions play a fairly high line which is exposing the weaknesses of some of the average players we have in the back five. We do tend to play different tactics at different times and usually we've got it pretty spot on this season, which is promising.

Nice one Stu. You posted without calling anyone sh*t

But you're right, our defenders weaknesses are easily exposed. But from what I've read of BR since the Swans game is he's happy with the coaching and the system. He puts it down to errors and bad luck. I can't see any 'mind game' reasons he might do that, so he may really have faith in it. I've not read anything from anyone that believes a team that focuses primarily on attack, even at the expense of a credible defence can rise to the top and stay.

We may blunderbuss our way to the title this season, and whilst we are due massive credit for the attacking side, had teams such as Spurs and the Scum not messed up, we might not be flying so high due to our defensive deficiencies. If we get to the top this year, or just into the CL again, that's awesome. But if we want to stay at the top and be competitive in the CL, I hope BR recognises that there's work to do.

[damjan193]

Counter attacking football only presses deep, not high.

Attacking
You only have to observe the style of our football for a few minutes in a game to see that we will never force a pass forward if there is not enough room to do so. Time and time again we will recycle the ball and intentionally play back to the defence to draw out the opposition formation. Thus creating space behind to attack.

Defending/Regaining Possession
Rarely do we apply pressure high up other than the forward attacking players (mainly Suarez). We almost always will only start pressurising the opposition as a team once they enter our half. The key to counter attacking football is striking a balance of how much pressure to absorb before you force a change in possession.

Wrong, a counter attack can be launched from anywhere on the pitch from a goal keeper to a striker deep in the opposition half. It completely depends on how you win a ball, its as simple as that. It doesn't matter where. Teams start attacking from the defence, so technically, most goals are of a counter attacking nature. It just so happens Liverpool are excellent at it. Liverpool also play a lot of forward passes. They attack at pace and with intent. Just because a team keeps possession of the ball does not mean they are not playing on the counter attack. All great teams do both and do both brilliantly. Counter attacking at speed is absolutely crucial to being a good side. Liverpool often pass the ball around at the back to create space for midfield players when Suarez is upfront and not the strikers. They get the attacking players on the ball high up the pitch.
This does change slightly when Suarez has to accomadate Sturridge.

And halfy half... often we apply pressure high up the pitch and this is a major part of our game plan. Coutinho, Sterling, Suarez, Henderson and both full backs press the ball high up the pitch. Liverpool also on occasions play a fairly high line which is exposing the weaknesses of some of the average players we have in the back five. We do tend to play different tactics at different times and usually we've got it pretty spot on this season, which is promising.

This is true, I've been saying the same thing myself.

But I don't think it's fair to entirely blame the defenders for our weakness in defense because the way that we play and considering the exposure that those players have, it would be very difficult for any defender to cope.

[andy_g]

Wrong, a counter attack can be launched from anywhere on the pitch from a goal keeper to a striker deep in the opposition half. It completely depends on how you win a ball, its as simple as that. It doesn't matter where. Teams start attacking from the defence, so technically, most goals are of a counter attacking nature. It just so happens Liverpool are excellent at it. Liverpool also play a lot of forward passes. They attack at pace and with intent. Just because a team keeps possession of the ball does not mean they are not playing on the counter attack.

wrong. a counter attack is a tactic employed in response to an attack and is a fast and aggressive maneouver. this applies equally to military contexts and sports contexts. if the move starts deep in the opposition territory then you are technically speaking still attacking, not counter attacking. merely winning back the ball does not constitute a counter attack. and wrong - if a team is keeping possession they are not counter attacking. they are keeping possession.

as napoleon bonaparte himself once said "the greatest danger occurs at the moment of victory"

where did you say you got those coaching badges from? 

[babu]

[devaney]

Wrong, a counter attack can be launched from anywhere on the pitch from a goal keeper to a striker deep in the opposition half. It completely depends on how you win a ball, its as simple as that. It doesn't matter where. Teams start attacking from the defence, so technically, most goals are of a counter attacking nature. It just so happens Liverpool are excellent at it. Liverpool also play a lot of forward passes. They attack at pace and with intent. Just because a team keeps possession of the ball does not mean they are not playing on the counter attack.

wrong. a counter attack is a tactic employed in response to an attack and is a fast and aggressive maneouver. this applies equally to military contexts and sports contexts. if the move starts deep in the opposition territory then you are technically speaking still attacking, not counter attacking. merely winning back the ball does not constitute a counter attack. and wrong - if a team is keeping possession they are not counter attacking. they are keeping possession.

as napoleon bonaparte himself once said "the greatest danger occurs at the moment of victory"

where did you say you got those coaching badges from? 

Same shop Stu bought his glasses from at a guess  That was an enjoyable read. Can't wait for the comeback because you do realise that even if you and the military are correct you will still be wrong 

[andy_g]

Same shop Stu bought his glasses from at a guess  That was an enjoyable read. Can't wait for the comeback because you do realise that even if you and the military are correct you will still be wrong 

its part and parcel of life on this forum. stu is right and everyone else is wrong. but its a fun game to point out to him now and again that he's not infallible. and he does have a sense of humour, to be fair.

[Stu the Red]

Wrong, a counter attack can be launched from anywhere on the pitch from a goal keeper to a striker deep in the opposition half. It completely depends on how you win a ball, its as simple as that. It doesn't matter where. Teams start attacking from the defence, so technically, most goals are of a counter attacking nature. It just so happens Liverpool are excellent at it. Liverpool also play a lot of forward passes. They attack at pace and with intent. Just because a team keeps possession of the ball does not mean they are not playing on the counter attack.

wrong. a counter attack is a tactic employed in response to an attack and is a fast and aggressive maneouver. this applies equally to military contexts and sports contexts. if the move starts deep in the opposition territory then you are technically speaking still attacking, not counter attacking. merely winning back the ball does not constitute a counter attack. and wrong - if a team is keeping possession they are not counter attacking. they are keeping possession.

as napoleon bonaparte himself once said "the greatest danger occurs at the moment of victory"

where did you say you got those coaching badges from? 

Sorry you're rigbt... I forgot a counter attack if only a counter attack if you win the ball back deep in your own half...

*cough*wrong*cough...

A good explanation though Andy, thanks for that mate, I'd have never known what a counter attack is if it wasn't for you.

[Stu the Red]

its part and parcel of life on this forum. stu is right and everyone else is wrong.

 

[RedAnt]

Actually, militarily, a footballing counter attack is more akin to an ambush, isn't it? Draw them in and then attack, as opposed to launching a counter offensive. Either way though, we're letting the enemy get too close and cause too many problems in deep in our own territory. And I reckon Skrtel is more of a grunt than a sniper and is liable to cause destruction.

I'm a Skrtel fan. I like his attitude. I like that he gets stuck in when blows are flying. He's just wrong for the tactics. He'll do for now but I'm sure he'll be moving on come the summer.

[devaney]

Wrong, a counter attack can be launched from anywhere on the pitch from a goal keeper to a striker deep in the opposition half. It completely depends on how you win a ball, its as simple as that. It doesn't matter where. Teams start attacking from the defence, so technically, most goals are of a counter attacking nature. It just so happens Liverpool are excellent at it. Liverpool also play a lot of forward passes. They attack at pace and with intent. Just because a team keeps possession of the ball does not mean they are not playing on the counter attack.

wrong. a counter attack is a tactic employed in response to an attack and is a fast and aggressive maneouver. this applies equally to military contexts and sports contexts. if the move starts deep in the opposition territory then you are technically speaking still attacking, not counter attacking. merely winning back the ball does not constitute a counter attack. and wrong - if a team is keeping possession they are not counter attacking. they are keeping possession.

as napoleon bonaparte himself once said "the greatest danger occurs at the moment of victory"

where did you say you got those coaching badges from? 

Sorry you're rigbt... I forgot a counter attack if only a counter attack if you win the ball back deep in your own half...

*cough*wrong*cough...

A good explanation though Andy, thanks for that mate, I'd have never known what a counter attack is if it wasn't for you.

Shit Stu I'm in fkg shock mate  You do realise you have admitted you are wrong! What the fk is wrong with you man? I expect better than this! Is it an age thing? Get a fkg grip  What a tart 

[andy_g]

A good explanation though Andy, thanks for that mate, I'd have never known what a counter attack is if it wasn't for you.

the only correct thing you've said for ages, stu mate. anyway, don't thank me.... thank napoleon, alexander the great, genghis khan, montgomery and general custer.