Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

In fairness to Crouch Dawson, he has'nt got any pace, Cisse has pace beat a player only through his pace and get a cross in as witnessed in the Everton game at Goodison and against WBA set one up scored one, why could'nt he do the same yesterday?

Yup ! to be fair to Cisse ...Atleast he score more than PC and Mori ...

FFS, absolutely clueless!

For the record, while Cisse may have 5 more goals than Crouch to date, what really matters is the context of those goals...

For instance, 4 of Cisse's 17 goals came against TNS and FBK Kaunas in the CL qualifiers--not exactly stiff competition.  He scored 2 more against Anderlecht, the weakest team in our CL group by a country mile.  Another 2 of his goals were penalties (Birmingham and Newcastle)--well taken to be sure but the odds were on him scoring.  And, his FA Cup goal against Birmingham--Liverpool's 7th on the night--was the very definition of  a soft goal.  Several others of his have also added to the tally late on, when the match was largely already won.  A picture seems to be emerging...

(To be fair, Cisse's goals did win us the Supercup against CSKA Moscow.  His free kick was also the difference in our home win over Blackburn and he did create Robbie's goal (one of 3 assists this season) and score one of his own against WBA.)

Compare this to Crouch's goals.  Of the 12 he's scored this season (never mind the Dubious Goals Committee's deliberations) several have been vital.  He won us the game against Wigan (H), WBA (H) and, of course, against Man U in the FA Cup (incidently, the last time the Mancs dropped points in all competitions).  He's also chipped in with important goals at important times: his 2 against Birmingham in the FA Cup, ended the game as a contest and he scored the all-important opening goals against Everton (A) and Newcastle (A).  Plus, he's got five assists to go with his 12 goals.

And, in the category of match-winning goals, both Cisse and Crouch are tied with 4 this season.

So my (admittedly long-winded) point is that it is not simply a matter of number of goals scored, but rather a matter of the importance of the goals to the match in question.  In this respect, Crouch edges it for me. 

And, this is in addition to the larger point--made by numerous knowledgeable posters on this forum--that Crouch's all-round game offers so much more to the team than Cisse's.  So, count the goals all you want but Crouch is still a better Liverpool player than Cisse is by a good long way.

[kunilson]

has anyone mentioned whether or not Gerrard dived? i dont know if he tripped or not, but i know he didn't appeal for anything which is good....but from the instant replays i saw yesterday it looked as if he dived....which me off cos he's not that sort of player and we aren't that sort of team.....mostly   (kewell,garcia)

[stmichael]

has anyone mentioned whether or not Gerrard dived? i dont know if he tripped or not, but i know he didn't appeal for anything which is good....but from the instant replays i saw yesterday it looked as if he dived....which me off cos he's not that sort of player and we aren't that sort of team.....mostly   (kewell,garcia)

there was definitely no contact and gerrard knew it.

i was listening to the radio earlier today and they were talking about diving. there was one typical bitter chelsea fan who phoned in claiming gerrard was a "cheat" and referred back to the penalty which he "won" in the champions league final.

even more unbelievable were the typical mancs who also called gerrard a "cheat" despite the fact that every one of them would absolutely kill to have him in their side. also, it's hardly as if they can talk when you look at their side is it?

[redmikey]

st mick i say fu'ck em ....

chelski scum can chav dive a gob off as much as they like . they have no class despite all the money in the world

mancs are mancs what can you expect from the lowest of the low

[48-1119859832]

Gerrard & Garcia should be ashamed of themselves for diving, it has no place in football and I certainly don't want it at Liverpool. If Gerrard wants to dive he can go and play for Chelsea and the same applies to Kromkamp & Garcia and Garcia flagged the ref recently to get a player booked, this is unacceptable behaviour.

It makes Benitez look like a hypocrite when he's condemning such unfair play and then the likes of Kromkamp and Gerrard decide to have a dive, more so it makes Gerrard a huge hypocrite, after he came out a few weeks ago also condemning cheating and winning a game at any cost and yet he's diving like Robben.

[48-1119859832]

mancs are mancs what can you expect from the lowest of the low

Liverpool fans these days aren't much better either, stopping Alan Smith's ambulance from leaving and I believe some fans dis-respected George Best's minute silence?

[Woollyback]

mancs are mancs what can you expect from the lowest of the low

Liverpool fans these days aren't much better either, stopping Alan Smith's ambulance from leaving and I believe some fans dis-respected George Best's minute silence?

tiny monority, tail wagging the dog etc etc i'm sure you get the picture

[Lando_Griffin]

mancs are mancs what can you expect from the lowest of the low

Liverpool fans these days aren't much better either, stopping Alan Smith's ambulance from leaving and I believe some fans dis-respected George Best's minute silence?

Are you a f*cking Manc?

B*tching about all our "divers", Benitez is a hypocrite, and now this.

I know your retort will be something like "no rose-tinted specs" or some other such sh*te, but the fact is you seem to like to pull the team down.

Why is that? 

[TheoRacle]

For the record, while Cisse may have 5 more goals than Crouch to date, what really matters is the context of those goals...

For instance, 4 of Cisse's 17 goals came against TNS and FBK Kaunas in the CL qualifiers--not exactly stiff competition.  He scored 2 more against Anderlecht, the weakest team in our CL group by a country mile.  Another 2 of his goals were penalties (Birmingham and Newcastle)--well taken to be sure but the odds were on him scoring.  And, his FA Cup goal against Birmingham--Liverpool's 7th on the night--was the very definition of  a soft goal.  Several others of his have also added to the tally late on, when the match was largely already won.  A picture seems to be emerging...

(To be fair, Cisse's goals did win us the Supercup against CSKA Moscow.  His free kick was also the difference in our home win over Blackburn and he did create Robbie's goal (one of 3 assists this season) and score one of his own against WBA.)

Compare this to Crouch's goals.  Of the 12 he's scored this season (never mind the Dubious Goals Committee's deliberations) several have been vital.  He won us the game against Wigan (H), WBA (H) and, of course, against Man U in the FA Cup (incidently, the last time the Mancs dropped points in all competitions).  He's also chipped in with important goals at important times: his 2 against Birmingham in the FA Cup, ended the game as a contest and he scored the all-important opening goals against Everton (A) and Newcastle (A).  Plus, he's got five assists to go with his 12 goals.

And, in the category of match-winning goals, both Cisse and Crouch are tied with 4 this season.

So my (admittedly long-winded) point is that it is not simply a matter of number of goals scored, but rather a matter of the importance of the goals to the match in question.  In this respect, Crouch edges it for me. 

And, this is in addition to the larger point--made by numerous knowledgeable posters on this forum--that Crouch's all-round game offers so much more to the team than Cisse's.  So, count the goals all you want but Crouch is still a better Liverpool player than Cisse is by a good long way.

FWIW I don't think anyone can use the 'look at the opposition' argument when comparing goals scored.  I appreciate where you're coming from BB but when you're a striker it's all about taking your chances when the come no matter who the opposition is. 

Crouch and Morientes have both played against cr.ap oppostion specifically, the teams you mentioned! Using your argument, one may have expected Crouch and Morientes to bag a hatful against such poor opposition.
You also have to admit (I think) that Cisse's goals against Anderlecht especially were very well taken.

Not to say that I'm a huge Cisse fan , but I will supoort him as a Liverpool player and try to defend him against unjust criticism. 

I think all of our striker's (except Robbie) have a had a very frustrating season. Morientes has worked hard despite low confidence causing him to miss a few sitters and on other occasions he's just been plain unlucky.  Crouch has also worked hard but just doesnt have the physical attributes to be a leadining goal scorer.  He'll only ever be a provider and occasional scorer - but then again that's what rafa bought him for.  Cisse lacks the right temperament at the moment.  He can contribute as much to the team as Nando and Crouch if all were playing to the best of their ability. Trouble is if you're a striker you need to be playing upfront regurlarly with a partner you know and trust.  As much as rotation is a necessary evil, it definately prohibits the development of lethal strikeforce partnerships and you get strikers that begin to perform in fits and starts.

Its a tough one for Rafa alright! He has to decide what he's looking for up front.  Is it a lone striker in the Drogba/Crespo/Henry/Van Nistelroy mould in which case none of our guys seem to be up to scratch (especially Crouch). Or does he want a partnership  similar to dare I say it Owen/Heskey, Mido/Keane or Raul/Morientes?

Looking at the stats I posted earlier, the thing that sticks out to me is the amount of playing time for Henry, Van Horseface, Bent and Yakubu.  Even though we've played more games than anyone else, apart from Crouch our strikers all have at least 700 minutes  (nearly 8 full games!) less playing time.

I guess no one can use use the 'fatigued' excuse either!

[TheoRacle]

Well TheoRacle, i scored 2 goals and we have played only 2 games aswell, but mine where rockets from halfway, just like Stevie G. No lobs, chips, just a rocket and the other was from halfway but a chip

LOL - didn't the opposition have a keeper then? 

My first was a downward header that bounced on the line just inside the left hand post from a great right wing cross. The second was a curler into the top left corner from 25 yards after collecting the ball just on the halfway line. 

Unfortunately, we couldn't manage to hang on against the league leaders and gave away a penalty with about 15 to go to finish all sqaure at 2-2. 

Still scoring two made my day 

[RAGE UK]

jesus! how can you guys say that goal was set up by Crouch?  He couldn't control the ball, he thumbles and the ball bounced off his foot and went to Fowler which resulted a goal, just becuase he was the last person to touch the ball it doesnt mean he had set it up.   if Crouch had controlled the ball he would have a shot himself, he doesn't even know Fowler was there cos his awarness is !

Rubbish he layed it on and now you will tell us all that he did not lay the ball on for gerrard a few matches ago to.
crouch is getting better but it not superman he has just started scoring and setting up goals what more do you want.
next you will be telling us gerrards dive in the penaltey erea was not a dive.
sorry m8 i think you are a millian miles away on that comment.

[Bad Bob]

For the record, while Cisse may have 5 more goals than Crouch to date, what really matters is the context of those goals...

For instance, 4 of Cisse's 17 goals came against TNS and FBK Kaunas in the CL qualifiers--not exactly stiff competition.  He scored 2 more against Anderlecht, the weakest team in our CL group by a country mile.  Another 2 of his goals were penalties (Birmingham and Newcastle)--well taken to be sure but the odds were on him scoring.  And, his FA Cup goal against Birmingham--Liverpool's 7th on the night--was the very definition of  a soft goal.  Several others of his have also added to the tally late on, when the match was largely already won.  A picture seems to be emerging...

(To be fair, Cisse's goals did win us the Supercup against CSKA Moscow.  His free kick was also the difference in our home win over Blackburn and he did create Robbie's goal (one of 3 assists this season) and score one of his own against WBA.)

Compare this to Crouch's goals.  Of the 12 he's scored this season (never mind the Dubious Goals Committee's deliberations) several have been vital.  He won us the game against Wigan (H), WBA (H) and, of course, against Man U in the FA Cup (incidently, the last time the Mancs dropped points in all competitions).  He's also chipped in with important goals at important times: his 2 against Birmingham in the FA Cup, ended the game as a contest and he scored the all-important opening goals against Everton (A) and Newcastle (A).  Plus, he's got five assists to go with his 12 goals.

And, in the category of match-winning goals, both Cisse and Crouch are tied with 4 this season.

So my (admittedly long-winded) point is that it is not simply a matter of number of goals scored, but rather a matter of the importance of the goals to the match in question.  In this respect, Crouch edges it for me. 

And, this is in addition to the larger point--made by numerous knowledgeable posters on this forum--that Crouch's all-round game offers so much more to the team than Cisse's.  So, count the goals all you want but Crouch is still a better Liverpool player than Cisse is by a good long way.

FWIW I don't think anyone can use the 'look at the opposition' argument when comparing goals scored.  I appreciate where you're coming from BB but when you're a striker it's all about taking your chances when the come no matter who the opposition is. 

Crouch and Morientes have both played against cr.ap oppostion specifically, the teams you mentioned! Using your argument, one may have expected Crouch and Morientes to bag a hatful against such poor opposition.
You also have to admit (I think) that Cisse's goals against Anderlecht especially were very well taken.

Not to say that I'm a huge Cisse fan , but I will supoort him as a Liverpool player and try to defend him against unjust criticism. 

That's fair comment Theo...

FWIW, my aim was not really to disparage Cisse's contributions to the team, such as they are.  Several of his goals have been vital--including the ones against Anderlecht--so it would be churlish to not give credit where credit is due.

In fact, my main problem is less with Cisse himself (except when he's throwing his dummy out on the pitch, then I see fookin' red!  ) and more with some of his more misguided defenders on this board.  The ones who, in their efforts to defend Djibril, take the almighty p!ss out of Crouch without analyzing his OVERALL contribution to the team.  The ones who simply quote the comparative scoring stats as the last word on the subject and don't give a second's thought to what lies behind those tidy little numbers.  The one's who bleat on about Rafa having it in for Cisse and how we'd all see his true 'dji-brilliance' of he was played in his proper position, blah, blah, blah. 

Most of all, though, I'm annoyed with the Cisse defenders who, instead of actually discussing his merits and putting together cogent arguments about what he offers the team, simply fall back on the tired old retort: 'yeah, well at least he's better than Crouch.'  It just gets up my nose, is all and that's why I posted what I did about the context of each striker's goals.

[TheoRacle]

That's fair comment Theo...

FWIW, my aim was not really to disparage Cisse's contributions to the team, such as they are.  Several of his goals have been vital--including the ones against Anderlecht--so it would be churlish to not give credit where credit is due.

In fact, my main problem is less with Cisse himself (except when he's throwing his dummy out on the pitch, then I see fookin' red!  ) and more with some of his more misguided defenders on this board.  The ones who, in their efforts to defend Djibril, take the almighty p!ss out of Crouch without analyzing his OVERALL contribution to the team.  The ones who simply quote the comparative scoring stats as the last word on the subject and don't give a second's thought to what lies behind those tidy little numbers.  The one's who bleat on about Rafa having it in for Cisse and how we'd all see his true 'dji-brilliance' of he was played in his proper position, blah, blah, blah. 

Most of all, though, I'm annoyed with the Cisse defenders who, instead of actually discussing his merits and putting together cogent arguments about what he offers the team, simply fall back on the tired old retort: 'yeah, well at least he's better than Crouch.'  It just gets up my nose, is all and that's why I posted what I did about the context of each striker's goals.

Kudos BB, who'd be a manager eh?

I assume that none of your post was intended as a sly dig at my stats posts 

I think the RW problem that we've had this year has really affected the way the team plays and the formations that Rafa has been able to field.  Maybe next season with a specialist RW in the team we will see two distinct strike partnerships? Crouch and someone plus Fowler and someone.  Then when rotation is required, Rafa can at least keep each partnership together and get some continuity going.

Its pretty clear that he (Rafa) has been doing some forced experimenting this season and all things considered we're doing very well to be where we are and all our players deserve some credit for this alone. It will be interesting to see what the close season has in store.

[112-1077774096]

FFS, absolutely clueless!

and, of course, against Man U in the FA Cup (incidently, the last time the Mancs dropped points in all competitions).

so you call someone absolutely clueless and then go on to explain about the last time manure dropped points was in the FA cup, have they changed the format when i wasnt looking and now give points for this competition?

[Bad Bob]

FFS, absolutely clueless!

and, of course, against Man U in the FA Cup (incidently, the last time the Mancs dropped points in all competitions).

so you call someone absolutely clueless and then go on to explain about the last time manure dropped points was in the FA cup, have they changed the format when i wasnt looking and now give points for this competition?

Oops! 

Meant to say that Man U have won every game since we knocked them out of the Cup (ergo, they have not dropped any points in the league)...apologies!

And, TheoRacle: I was in no way slagging your recent statistics post, mate...it was quite eye-opening!