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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Big Niall » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:18 pm

s@int wrote:I think the arguements from both sides are becoming ever more desperate and its time a few people on both sides took a step back. Rafa is neither a genius or an idiot, and is trying to do his best(hopefully) for the team. Surely the time to discuss the merits or faults of the manager is at the end of the season.

I don't believe Rafa would get much stick if he wins the CL and gets us 4th place, and I think if he fails to get fourth place or win a cup he will be gone anyway.

Certainly I don't agree with changing the manager part way through a season, especially one with a proven track record in the cups still available for us to win.

Hopefully by the summer the problems with the owners will be sorted, a couple of cups and fourth place will have put us all in a happy mood, a couple of good signings(winger and creative second striker) and we are in line for a title challenge for next season.

Failure and we won't need any discussion, as he will be long gone anyway.

I agree that we shouldn't change a manager during a season and he should be judged at the end.

however - pipping Everton,Villa,Man city for 4th is NOT an achievement. Finishing close to the winners would be.

Nobody doubts Benitez ability to win a cup either. This whole debate is about the league as that shows  what a team is really all about.
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Postby Big Niall » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:21 pm

Its rotation and crazy selection that has me annoyed (and the long ball).

I mean - playing Kuyt before Crouch,

having a right winger (pennant) on the bench so your tall centre forward Kuyt can play wide on the right (chelsea game), bringing on your right winger but putting him on the left even though you have a left winger (Kewell) on the bench. The game before playing Lucas out on the left wing while your expensive left winger (babel) is on the bench.

Playing Crouch and Torres 5 times all season from the start.

Does any of this make sense?
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:27 pm

Big Niall wrote:
s@int wrote:I think the arguements from both sides are becoming ever more desperate and its time a few people on both sides took a step back. Rafa is neither a genius or an idiot, and is trying to do his best(hopefully) for the team. Surely the time to discuss the merits or faults of the manager is at the end of the season.

I don't believe Rafa would get much stick if he wins the CL and gets us 4th place, and I think if he fails to get fourth place or win a cup he will be gone anyway.

Certainly I don't agree with changing the manager part way through a season, especially one with a proven track record in the cups still available for us to win.

Hopefully by the summer the problems with the owners will be sorted, a couple of cups and fourth place will have put us all in a happy mood, a couple of good signings(winger and creative second striker) and we are in line for a title challenge for next season.

Failure and we won't need any discussion, as he will be long gone anyway.

I agree that we shouldn't change a manager during a season and he should be judged at the end.

however - pipping Everton,Villa,Man city for 4th is NOT an achievement. Finishing close to the winners would be.

Nobody doubts Benitez ability to win a cup either. This whole debate is about the league as that shows  what a team is really all about.

The thing is Niall, while all the talk is about the league, imagine the last game of the season ..... CL FINAL win. No matter where we finish in the league is anyone really going to be calling for Rafa's head after cheering him and the team to victory? Really?

While the league and our progress is vital to the future of our club, the reality is if we win a cup there isn't going to be Rafa out chants heard around Anfield or many Rafa out posts on here either for that matter.

I agree that the league is where the eventual success or failure of Rafa will be judged, but I also believe a cup will buy him another season as long as we finish 4th. No matter how far back from the champions we are.
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:45 pm

Big Niall wrote:however - pipping Everton,Villa,Man city for 4th is NOT an achievement. Finishing close to the winners would be.

Its a :censored: sad inditement of football today that shi.te lad.

Winning the FA Cup, that would be an achievement.

Winning the European cup, that would be an achievement.

Winning hte Carling Cup (to a lesser extent) would be an achievement.

Finishing in a position so as to qualify for a tournament next season, second, third or fourth is not and never will be an achievement. ITs is a necessary means to an end in the modern day football environment.

We will not (without the help of google or wikipedia) remember in a few years who was second, third and fourth in the league. We WILL remember who won cup competitions.
JUSTICE FOR THE 96

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Postby Big Niall » Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:54 pm

My point was that Wimbledon,Coventry,Everton can win the FA cup, good day out & a nice win but not a sign that a team is going places, West Ham came within a penalty shoot out of winning it two years ago but nearly got relegated last year. Millwall got to the final a few years ago by beating all lower division teams. WE could get to the quarters by beating Luton (in administration), a non league team and Barnsely. Beating those three teams doesn't prove anything.

A cup is no sign of progress. While nobody remembers who came second in the league, if we put a great run together and finished 5 points behind the winners we'd all feel that we are making progress and in with a shout next season.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:31 pm

s@int wrote:
Big Niall wrote:
s@int wrote:I think the arguements from both sides are becoming ever more desperate and its time a few people on both sides took a step back. Rafa is neither a genius or an idiot, and is trying to do his best(hopefully) for the team. Surely the time to discuss the merits or faults of the manager is at the end of the season.

I don't believe Rafa would get much stick if he wins the CL and gets us 4th place, and I think if he fails to get fourth place or win a cup he will be gone anyway.

Certainly I don't agree with changing the manager part way through a season, especially one with a proven track record in the cups still available for us to win.

Hopefully by the summer the problems with the owners will be sorted, a couple of cups and fourth place will have put us all in a happy mood, a couple of good signings(winger and creative second striker) and we are in line for a title challenge for next season.

Failure and we won't need any discussion, as he will be long gone anyway.

I agree that we shouldn't change a manager during a season and he should be judged at the end.

however - pipping Everton,Villa,Man city for 4th is NOT an achievement. Finishing close to the winners would be.

Nobody doubts Benitez ability to win a cup either. This whole debate is about the league as that shows  what a team is really all about.

The thing is Niall, while all the talk is about the league, imagine the last game of the season ..... CL FINAL win. No matter where we finish in the league is anyone really going to be calling for Rafa's head after cheering him and the team to victory? Really?

While the league and our progress is vital to the future of our club, the reality is if we win a cup there isn't going to be Rafa out chants heard around Anfield or many Rafa out posts on here either for that matter.

I agree that the league is where the eventual success or failure of Rafa will be judged, but I also believe a cup will buy him another season as long as we finish 4th. No matter how far back from the champions we are.

Saint I want Benitez out, NO MATTER what happens at the end of the year. I want a manager who will bring the league title back to Anfield. IMO Benitez can't do this. I respect and understand why people wish to give Benitez more time but I can't see him changing and his current method isn't up to winning the league.

So for me he has to go, European Cup,FA Cup, fourth placed or not.
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2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby burjennio » Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:45 pm

god_bless_john_houlding Posted on Feb. 13 2008,16:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (s@int @ Feb. 13 2008,14:27)
Quote (Big Niall @ Feb. 13 2008,14:18)
Quote (s@int @ Feb. 13 2008,13:42)
I think the arguements from both sides are becoming ever more desperate and its time a few people on both sides took a step back. Rafa is neither a genius or an idiot, and is trying to do his best(hopefully) for the team. Surely the time to discuss the merits or faults of the manager is at the end of the season.

I don't believe Rafa would get much stick if he wins the CL and gets us 4th place, and I think if he fails to get fourth place or win a cup he will be gone anyway.

Certainly I don't agree with changing the manager part way through a season, especially one with a proven track record in the cups still available for us to win.

Hopefully by the summer the problems with the owners will be sorted, a couple of cups and fourth place will have put us all in a happy mood, a couple of good signings(winger and creative second striker) and we are in line for a title challenge for next season.

Failure and we won't need any discussion, as he will be long gone anyway.

I agree that we shouldn't change a manager during a season and he should be judged at the end.

however - pipping Everton,Villa,Man city for 4th is NOT an achievement. Finishing close to the winners would be.

Nobody doubts Benitez ability to win a cup either. This whole debate is about the league as that shows  what a team is really all about.

The thing is Niall, while all the talk is about the league, imagine the last game of the season ..... CL FINAL win. No matter where we finish in the league is anyone really going to be calling for Rafa's head after cheering him and the team to victory? Really?

While the league and our progress is vital to the future of our club, the reality is if we win a cup there isn't going to be Rafa out chants heard around Anfield or many Rafa out posts on here either for that matter.

I agree that the league is where the eventual success or failure of Rafa will be judged, but I also believe a cup will buy him another season as long as we finish 4th. No matter how far back from the champions we are.

Saint I want Benitez out, NO MATTER what happens at the end of the year. I want a manager who will bring the league title back to Anfield. IMO Benitez can't do this. I respect and understand why people wish to give Benitez more time but I can't see him changing and his current method isn't up to winning the league.

So for me he has to go, European Cup,FA Cup, fourth placed or not.


Your constant whinging makes me sad

Please change the record

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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:14 pm

This is going to take some time, so bare with me.

This is where I see Liverpool Football Club right now.

We are a side unable to compete for the league title, this could be for one of a several reasons, obviously the main one looks to be Benitez' tactics. But I don't think we're capable of competing and we must accept it, and lower our exceptations. We as fans may all be desperate for a league title, but it's going to be at least another 3-4 years before one comes our way with the current state of affairs. Even a new manager isn't the quick fix answer, because we'll still be those 3-4 years behind the top sides. Can we really be patient for those years? I'd like to say I am but I'd be lying. I'm not patient to wait another 4 years without a league title. I expect us to win it every year because that's what I became a customed to in the 70s and 80s.

Secondly the current crop of players. For me they should be good enough to challenge for the league, if played and managed in the right way. I think our starting 11 is as good as anybody's in the league. Our spine is certainly the best in the league IMO and don't forget it is just my opinion. No facts or anything, just an honest opinion. Here's why our spine is the best in the league though. Reina is the best keeper in the world IMO. Carragher, best centre half in the land and Agger is as good as any ball playing centre half around. Also they compliment each other so well. Gerrard is the world's best central midfielder and take any one of other three central midfielders they can give any other pair of midfielders a run for their money. As for up front, Torres is as good as anything around in the world, and Crouch causes havoc and chips in now and then with a couple of goals. Out wide is where we struggle, full backs and wingers. For me Finnan and Arbeloa are two good full backs for left and right but aren't as good as the other three top side's full backs. The same goes for the wingers. I'm a huge fan of both Pennant and Babel but they're not as good as what the other three offer. Now for the rest of the squad, we have quality in depth with the likes of Alonso, Lucas, Skrtel. Then for the players who take the brunt of the criticism on here, my personal ones are Kuyt, Aurellio and Kewell. Now I've never been a fan of Kuyt, but I think that's been obvious, but I will defend him here. Sammy Lee goes down as a hero at Anfield, for doing the same thing Kuyt does. Run around for 90 minutes and never give up. But the reason Lee is praised is because it wasn't his job to score whereas it is for Kuyt. There's always three or four who we would all like to see the back of. Voronin being top of that list for everyone.

Now for the youngsters coming through. There hasn't been a young lad break through and stay in the side on a regular basis since Gerrard. There also hasn't been many youngsters coming in at all since the academy was moved over to Kirkby, which is a huge reason IMO why they can't stay in the side. When the youngsters/reserves trained at Melwood they knew the first team and weren't as shell shocked or nervous going into the side as they are now because they knew the players they were playing with. I firmly believe that is a huge factor in the reasons for kids not being able to play in the first team for a long periord. Sticking with the kids, I've been impressed from what I've seen and heard about them this year and the last couple. I believe that some of our current youngsters will make the grade at Anfield, but the only way they will is by giving them a go, that takes a huge amount of bottle and with us being now 18 years without a title, it'd take a very brave man to have that bottle. But throughout our history our best players have been those who've come through the youth setup or have had a few years in the reserves first.

On the transfer debate, it's no secret that I think Benitez has made far to many bad buys. That's based solely on the incoming player. Not cost or what we sold them on for, but solely on the player and what they achieved at the club. There's always the exceptations to that, and I will give credit Benitez for bringing in seven or eight players who I class to be world stars. I don't need to name them as we know who they are already. So to some extent Benitez has been able to cancel out his 20-30 bad buys with the 7-8 world stars. No manager (not even Shanks and Bob) got it spot on all the time. Also comparing Benitez' signings to anyone elses is pretty pointless (yes I've done it myself, but I still see it pointless) because you can sit there and ask why didn't Benitez take on Tevez as well as Mascheranho, but to counter that you can say why didn't Ferguson buy Reina instead of Van Der Sar. Like I said no manager gets transfers spot on all the time, so I think it's important that we credit Benitez on those who've been great signings for the club and it's these players who in those 3-4 years I mentioned earlier who'll be the reasons we are challeneging.

Now for the board. I admit it must affect Benitez, not knowing if he's going to be in charge at the start of next season, but the only way to clarify that is by performing. The fact that we are performing BELOW very high expectations is why his job uncertain. The truth is, if we were admitted that we're not good enough to win the league, then this would be a great season. A chance of fourth, going well in europe and a realistic quater final in the FA Cup. That would be a good season for a side uncapable of winning the league, but because we still assume we should be challenging it looks like a poor season. Sticking on the board, I think they were wrong for publically admitting they'd spoken to Klinsmann and other of their antics have been pathetic at best. So again I can see why people, certainly those who support Benitez, will blame the yanks for this season. It's not an ideal situation, but I still think Benitez should concentrate with the ongoings on the pitch, rather than complaining about what's happening behind the scenes.

Finally for us fans. We need to be realistic and back Benitez to the heavens while he's in charge. I don't want Benitez as our manager because as I've stated many times I don't feel he can win us the league. But if Benitez is the manager at the start of next year, I will say the same as I have for the last 18 years "this is our year" So I will support Benitez to win us the league at the start of next year. I'd also like to see the rest of you anti-Benitez, to have the same idea. Back him and the players (including Voronin and Kuyt) to get it right.

That's it, and sorry if it doesn't belong in here, I'm sure someone will put it in the right topic.
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3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby Ace Ventura » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:18 pm

Big Niall wrote:My point was that Wimbledon,Coventry,Everton can win the FA cup, good day out & a nice win but not a sign that a team is going places, West Ham came within a penalty shoot out of winning it two years ago but nearly got relegated last year. Millwall got to the final a few years ago by beating all lower division teams. WE could get to the quarters by beating Luton (in administration), a non league team and Barnsely. Beating those three teams doesn't prove anything.

A cup is no sign of progress. While nobody remembers who came second in the league, if we put a great run together and finished 5 points behind the winners we'd all feel that we are making progress and in with a shout next season.

If thats the case about anyone winning the FA cup name the last side outside the top 4 that did it.

I think Saint is speaking sense in what he says. If we came fourth and won a cup then it would be a good season, it would be dissapointing in the league definately. But as Leon has also said winning trophies is all that should matter.
Despite our prediciment again in the league every season (so far) under Rafa we have reached finals, winning the champions league, FA cup and even the super cup and Community shield (not exactly prestigous but you have to be in em to win em) and coming runners up in the Champions league last season and the Carling cup first season.

I have been very frustrated this season with the way the league has petered out again so early but if he wins yet another trophy and gets in the top then i think he would definately deserve another season.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:23 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:If thats the case about anyone winning the FA cup name the last side outside the top 4 that did it.

Everton 95. 1-0 against United, Paul Rideout header. Since then it's been United, Chelsea, Arsenal and ourselves who've won the cup.

Glad I could clear that up  :D
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby Ace Ventura » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:54 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:If thats the case about anyone winning the FA cup name the last side outside the top 4 that did it.

Everton 95. 1-0 against United, Paul Rideout header. Since then it's been United, Chelsea, Arsenal and ourselves who've won the cup.

Glad I could clear that up  :D

Thanks GBJH but i knew the answer, was merely making a point  :D
Winning the FA cup in this era is not something that your Wimbledons and Evertons can do anymore.
Last edited by Ace Ventura on Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:58 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:If thats the case about anyone winning the FA cup name the last side outside the top 4 that did it.

Everton 95. 1-0 against United, Paul Rideout header. Since then it's been United, Chelsea, Arsenal and ourselves who've won the cup.

Glad I could clear that up  :D

Thanks GBJH but i knew the answer, was merely making a point  :D
Winning the FA cup in this era is not something that your Wimbledons and Evertons can do anymore.

I thought you knew, and Wimbledon certainly can't win it anymore, as they no longer exist

MK Dons and Everton would be more accurate  :D

Glad I could clear that up aswell  :D
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2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby 112-1077774096 » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:03 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
peewee wrote:next season if rafa is still boss gerrard may as well get this out of the way at the start of the season and tell us at that point we will be involved in a battle for fourth with city, spurs, everton etc

peewee in hates Rafa shocker - read all about it.

leon in changing the facts to have a sly dig shocker.

I have never said I hate rafa, I have however started to dislike him because of his stubborness and naivity. But amazing out of the many posts in here you choose mine, but at least I know why after reading the peewee thread in the special mods section.   :oops:
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Postby Sabre » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:06 am

peewee wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
peewee wrote:next season if rafa is still boss gerrard may as well get this out of the way at the start of the season and tell us at that point we will be involved in a battle for fourth with city, spurs, everton etc

peewee in hates Rafa shocker - read all about it.

leon in changing the facts to have a sly dig shocker.

I have never said I hate rafa, I have however started to dislike him because of his stubborness and naivity. But amazing out of the many posts in here you choose mine, but at least I know why after reading the peewee thread in the special mods section.   :oops:

Special mods section?

What's that? How did you know it exists? And more importantly, why didn't we have one when we were moderators?

FFS, I resign as a mod, and the work conditions are improved. Next thing I'll learn is that the mods are in Hawaii deliberating and drinking Rum.  :D Special mods section and the stuff!  :D
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Postby account deleted by request » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:19 am

The special Mod's section is a bloody interesting read Sabre, took me a while to get in to it, but once your in ..........

I still haven't learned how to post in there yet though.
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