Liverpool FC Forum

[nobybob]

All the anti-rafa brigade drawn in by the title of the thread like flies to sh!t----OOOOh look another opportunity to have a go at rafa , so predictable you all make me laugh.

As predictable as your tongue up his ar$e

who rattled your cage?

[Big Niall]

Wenger built a team that went unbeaten the whole season in the league, he then took a few years to rebuild nearly a whole team on little money and now they challenge for the title playing great football. Wenger has won the league three times already on little net spending.

Well, what's your comeback?

good so we are both agreed wenger is a very good manager

so why was it that rafa managed to attain a higher finish in the league twice in the last three years?. "cos wenger was rebuilding his team" you say. OK when he last won the premier it was the 2003-2004 season and he has not won it since. does your own manager not deserve the same credit and time you afford wenger to build his own team cos whilst he has been doing it he has been finishing above wenger ?
well whats your comeback ?

They both started their rebuilding in 2004/5 season. While LFC finished above Arsenal a couple of times, we never challenged for the league once.

Even if Arsenal don't win it this year, you can't argue that they haven't challenged for it i.e. they have gone from scratch to challenging for title in four seasons. Also nobody can doubt that Wenger is capable of building a team that can win the premiership - with Rafa, there is that doubt.

Also, they play football that all neutrals love to watch, and they haven't spent much money due to cost of building a new stadium.

Comeback?

[nobybob]

Wenger built a team that went unbeaten the whole season in the league, he then took a few years to rebuild nearly a whole team on little money and now they challenge for the title playing great football. Wenger has won the league three times already on little net spending.

Well, what's your comeback?

good so we are both agreed wenger is a very good manager

so why was it that rafa managed to attain a higher finish in the league twice in the last three years?. "cos wenger was rebuilding his team" you say. OK when he last won the premier it was the 2003-2004 season and he has not won it since. does your own manager not deserve the same credit and time you afford wenger to build his own team cos whilst he has been doing it he has been finishing above wenger ?
well whats your comeback ?

They both started their rebuilding in 2004/5 season. While LFC finished above Arsenal a couple of times, we never challenged for the league once.

Even if Arsenal don't win it this year, you can't argue that they haven't challenged for it i.e. they have gone from scratch to challenging for title in four seasons. Also nobody can doubt that Wenger is capable of building a team that can win the premiership - with Rafa, there is that doubt.

Also, they play football that all neutrals love to watch, and they haven't spent much money due to cost of building a new stadium.

Comeback?

so rafa finshed above wenger twice, and wenger above us once, but wenger is a great manager and rafa is cr@p lol
p.s during those years rafa  managed to gain an FA a CL and a LEAGUE cup final whilst building his team -wenger won what whilst he was building?

comeback ?

ps you say wengers team "went from scratch" sorry they went from a team that had JUST WON THE LEAGUE  the previous season to one that finished below rafa

COMEBACK?

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Noby, what league cup has Benitez WON? He's made the final and lost it in 05. I don't recall us winning the league cup since 03 where we beat United under Houllier. You on the other hand think Benitez has GAINED (in my definintion that means won) the league cup. Have I missed us win something, or is the league cup still been won 7 times by Liverpool. 81, 82, 83, 84, 95, 01, 03. Yes that still makes seven, so where has Benitez GAINED a league cup?

[Toffeehater]

Wenger built a team that went unbeaten the whole season in the league, he then took a few years to rebuild nearly a whole team on little money and now they challenge for the title playing great football. Wenger has won the league three times already on little net spending.

Well, what's your comeback?

good so we are both agreed wenger is a very good manager

so why was it that rafa managed to attain a higher finish in the league twice in the last three years?. "cos wenger was rebuilding his team" you say. OK when he last won the premier it was the 2003-2004 season and he has not won it since. does your own manager not deserve the same credit and time you afford wenger to build his own team cos whilst he has been doing it he has been finishing above wenger ?
well whats your comeback ?

Rafa has not mounted a title challenge with the team he has been building , they have been bad buys all made by HIM!

[Toffeehater]

Wenger built a team that went unbeaten the whole season in the league, he then took a few years to rebuild nearly a whole team on little money and now they challenge for the title playing great football. Wenger has won the league three times already on little net spending.

Well, what's your comeback?

good so we are both agreed wenger is a very good manager

so why was it that rafa managed to attain a higher finish in the league twice in the last three years?. "cos wenger was rebuilding his team" you say. OK when he last won the premier it was the 2003-2004 season and he has not won it since. does your own manager not deserve the same credit and time you afford wenger to build his own team cos whilst he has been doing it he has been finishing above wenger ?
well whats your comeback ?

They both started their rebuilding in 2004/5 season. While LFC finished above Arsenal a couple of times, we never challenged for the league once.

Even if Arsenal don't win it this year, you can't argue that they haven't challenged for it i.e. they have gone from scratch to challenging for title in four seasons. Also nobody can doubt that Wenger is capable of building a team that can win the premiership - with Rafa, there is that doubt.

Also, they play football that all neutrals love to watch, and they haven't spent much money due to cost of building a new stadium.

Comeback?

so rafa finshed above wenger twice, and wenger above us once, but wenger is a great manager and rafa is cr@p lol
p.s during those years rafa  managed to gain an FA a CL and a LEAGUE cup whilst building his team -wenger won what whilst he was building?

comeback ?

ps you say wengers team "went from scratch" sorry they went from a team that had JUST WON THE LEAGUE  the previous season to one that finished below rafa

COMEBACK?

U getting on people's nerves , wenger team was all old players when they won the league , the following season , they lost 4 players Viera , Pires , Campbell and Ljungberg , not forgetting denis bergamp , this were all key players in wenger's team which won the league , when they left , wenger introduced all youngsters except henry , his youngsters were unknowns and look at some of them now , wenger is the best in moulding future talent nad god knows what babel would be if he was at arsenal , compare the amount that wenger has spent compared to rafa and then we can look at the amount of cups wenger vs Rafa , Rafa has spent more , so he's expected to do better which he has done winning something in his last 3 seasons , This season however arsenal are smashing everyone , they'er what? 17 points clear from us? 5 from manure , with minimum money spent and playing youngsters who were once unknowns

[nobybob]

Wenger built a team that went unbeaten the whole season in the league, he then took a few years to rebuild nearly a whole team on little money and now they challenge for the title playing great football. Wenger has won the league three times already on little net spending.

Well, what's your comeback?

good so we are both agreed wenger is a very good manager

so why was it that rafa managed to attain a higher finish in the league twice in the last three years?. "cos wenger was rebuilding his team" you say. OK when he last won the premier it was the 2003-2004 season and he has not won it since. does your own manager not deserve the same credit and time you afford wenger to build his own team cos whilst he has been doing it he has been finishing above wenger ?
well whats your comeback ?

They both started their rebuilding in 2004/5 season. While LFC finished above Arsenal a couple of times, we never challenged for the league once.

Even if Arsenal don't win it this year, you can't argue that they haven't challenged for it i.e. they have gone from scratch to challenging for title in four seasons. Also nobody can doubt that Wenger is capable of building a team that can win the premiership - with Rafa, there is that doubt.

Also, they play football that all neutrals love to watch, and they haven't spent much money due to cost of building a new stadium.

Comeback?

so rafa finshed above wenger twice, and wenger above us once, but wenger is a great manager and rafa is cr@p lol
p.s during those years rafa  managed to gain an FA a CL and a LEAGUE cup whilst building his team -wenger won what whilst he was building?

comeback ?

ps you say wengers team "went from scratch" sorry they went from a team that had JUST WON THE LEAGUE  the previous season to one that finished below rafa

COMEBACK?

U getting on people's nerves , wenger team was all old players when they won the league , the following season , they lost 4 players Viera , Pires , Campbell and Ljungberg , not forgetting denis bergamp , this were all key players in wenger's team which won the league , when they left , wenger introduced all youngsters except henry , his youngsters were unknowns and look at some of them now , wenger is the best in moulding future talent nad god knows what babel would be if he was at arsenal , compare the amount that wenger has spent compared to rafa and then we can look at the amount of cups wenger vs Rafa , Rafa has spent more , so he's expected to do better which he has done winning something in his last 3 seasons , This season however arsenal are smashing everyone , they'er what? 17 points clear from us? 5 from manure , with minimum money spent and playing youngsters who were once unknowns

you just dont get it do you i am saying wenger is a fu,kin FANTASTIC manager and therefore it is astounding that rafa has won all he has whilst building his team and wenger trailed behind whist building his!!
im not putting wenger down just the complete opposite ,so it all boils down comparison wise to this year, how can we  judge rafa on this year with all the sh!t that has been going on owner wise ect?

[zarababe]

All the anti-rafa brigade drawn in by the title of the thread like flies to sh!t----OOOOh look another opportunity to have a go at rafa , so predictable you all make me laugh.

As predictable as your tongue up his ar$e

how we forget - what disrespect .. u deserve failure and BIG SAMMMMMM YEHHHHH !

[taff]

What has Wenger won since Benitez took over at Liverpool, and thats with the momentum of great teams under his leadership.

I cant see SG leaving as some have said and see his comments as now being realistic and I think we will finish 4th I have every confidence, maybe even third

How is Wenger allowed time but Benitez is not and by Liverpool fans as well.  I thought we would compete this year but have been proved wrong and my reasons for this are

The defence has not been the same in defence but more importantly in attack, Riise and Finan are in my opinion now squad players. We can cope without wingers if the support from the flanks is good but alas it has not been.

Kuyt, well well.  In all honesty I would give one more season but after hours and hours of deliberation. He works hard yes but maybe is not suited with Torres who is the main man so if not he has to go.  If he can build an understanding with Torres then keep him,  but every striker we have now is second fiddle to FT.  Voronin can go, came for free maybe sell him for a couple of million and use the money for another striker.

The behind the scenes stuff has affected confidence. We cant put all the blame on this entirely but in my opinion it has cost us points through lack of confidence and uncertainty.

The squad is better and with the return of Agger and Skrtel we have more options in defence. I would definitely have Benitez here next season although would not be surprised to see him go. 

For next season I would buy a left back, a winger, move Babel up front, move SG to the right.  And if we have cash spend loads on top class striker

[nobybob]

What has Wenger won since Benitez took over at Liverpool, and thats with the momentum of great teams under his leadership.

I cant see SG leaving as some have said and see his comments as now being realistic and I think we will finish 4th I have every confidence, maybe even third

How is Wenger allowed time but Benitez is not and by Liverpool fans as well.  I thought we would compete this year but have been proved wrong and my reasons for this are

The defence has not been the same in defence but more importantly in attack, Riise and Finan are in my opinion now squad players. We can cope without wingers if the support from the flanks is good but alas it has not been.

Kuyt, well well.  In all honesty I would give one more season but after hours and hours of deliberation. He works hard yes but maybe is not suited with Torres who is the main man so if not he has to go.  If he can build an understanding with Torres then keep him,  but every striker we have now is second fiddle to FT.  Voronin can go, came for free maybe sell him for a couple of million and use the money for another striker.

The behind the scenes stuff has affected confidence. We cant put all the blame on this entirely but in my opinion it has cost us points through lack of confidence and uncertainty.

The squad is better and with the return of Agger and Skrtel we have more options in defence. I would definitely have Benitez here next season although would not be surprised to see him go. 

For next season I would buy a left back, a winger, move Babel up front, move SG to the right.  And if we have cash spend loads on top class striker

a man after my own heart

[bigmick]

Firstly I must say do love the way people who are Rafa supporters/apologists pick their targets for comparison. If it's not Shankly, it's Wenger or Ferguson. Given our record in the League under Rafa I'd be sticking with the Souness's or the Bruce Rioch's of this World if it was me but there you go.

That said, the way I see it if we're making a comparison with Wenger over the last four years and Rafa is this. Firstly, Rafa has rebuilt a team in Premiership terms which finished fourth the season before he arrived, into a team which if it pulls it's finger out of it's erse has got about an even money chance of finishing fourth this season as well. This has been done at considerable expense, and all the while I would guess that for the vast majority of his tenure he has had within his first choice team (if there is such a thing) Gerrard, Carragher, Finnan, Riise and to a lesser extent Kewell and Hyppia. All players which he inherited of course, there may be others but I'm no statistician.

Wenger, if we really must make the comparison (and once again I'm amazed that people who like Rafa choose this particular battleground) had a team which the season before Rafa came won the Premiership. They won it without losing a game as it happens, and in the vast majority of games the team was largely unchanged (he doesn't go an awful lot for Rafa style doesn't the Arsenal manager). Now from memory (and I'm not going to spend an awful lot of time on this, if I can't remember them then feck it) they had Seaman in goal, Lauren, Sol Campbell, Keown, Ashley Cole, Vierra, Pires, Ljundberg, (fecked if I can remember the other central midfielder) Henry and Bergkamp. It was just about as good a team as I've seen in English domestic football anyway and I include our fantastic teams in that as well.

Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.

Someone once said that Wengers methods on team selection are "stuck in the nineties". I'm not sure about that. I think the comparison with any manager to be perfectly honest and the Frenchman in terms of picking up players for nothing and moulding them into an exiting little team is pointless. It's probably best we just accept that he has his own way of doing things and in his particular sphere he is a bit of a one off. Rafa doesn't look too good in direct comparison, but then again not that many managers do I wouldn't have thought.

[puroresu]

Rafa aint had the money chelsea have had but as wenger has shown u can find quality players if u have a good scouting network.  If u gave wenger £100 mil in he summer he wouldnt go and buy the most expensive players as u dont need to.   If Rafa cannot find gems on the cheap thats his problem.  Oh and all this 'wenger was given time to rebuild his side so why not rafa' talk is laughable. People speak as if Wenger was given time without justification.  A double in your 2nd season, then losing the title by 1 point the following season isnt bad.  3 years later its another double and scoring in very single league game. An FA cup to follow and then a season going unbeaten.  He may not have won anything since 05 but is it any wonder he has been given time to build his side.  His trophy wins means he deserved time.  Not to mention everyone could see the side he was building was v young and given time would progress to what u see today.  No trophies but there fans and the club could see progress was being made and it was only a matter of time before the kids learnt how to do it week in week out.  Rafa has yet to prove he has what it takes to even mount a serious challenge for the title let alone win a title.  His choice of players in the transfer market is also questionable.

[bigmick]

The way wenger did it this season mate was a masterclass in team building and man management. They were fourth last season, and had barely signed a first team player so how did he make them challengers? Well he looked at the fixture list and realised that they had an easy start. He got them up and firing by playing their best team in the pre season matches, then picked his best team every week in all competitions. Suddenly they had won their first six or whatever it was and people started to sit up.

Everybody (including me) said "don't worry about them they'll blow up" but by now the players were oozing confidence. The rhythm and the cohesion flowed through, and previously average players like Flamini and Adebayor began to look like World beaters. "Unless he rotates and rests players they'll blow up" people said, but they didn't.

If ever anybopdy needed a lesson in how to get the momentum and keep it here it was. We finished above them the previous season, and had signed the best striker in the League in the close season. When they arrived at anfield though, lets be honest they played us off the park. We got a point but the goal frame was well and truly rattled on a couple of occasions, as well as two open goal rebounds missed.

I still think Man Utd will win the league. Arsenal have so far though lost once only. Were they to go to Old Trafford later in the season and get a result, they may yet be Champions. If they do it will be a pretty good achievement by any standards. There cannot be a better illustration that the pro-rotationers were and are wrong than their success, even if eventually they don't win it.

[taff]

Then we are domed as nobody lives up to Wenger.

As usual Bigmick has superb arguments, but how about the argument that Wenger has been there and built up a winning squad for years. Benitez joined a disfunctional Liverpool who were well behind and guess what the other three didnt stay still in this period either.  I would like to see spending and recouping over the last three years with all the big four.  Jeffers is forgotten while we rant about Kuyt for example. We lost our main striker in his first week in charge.

I can also run out of excuses for this season and am not happy but my main emotion is we dont turn into Newcastle.

We demand to compete in all competitions so we need experienced players while you could argue that Wenger was given three years rebuilding.  And we actually won a champions league and went to another final which as we lost peoploe now see as a failure. 

We do of course need to improve in the league and I have faith that Benitez will change his tact as the last three seasons we did not expect to be there to win at the end. In that respect Benitez has failed and will analyse why he failed. The turmoils DOES have an effect but we cannot lay the blame there totally.  As I said earlier some players have not performed as expected while others are still settling. 

If we have the same situation next season and are out of it before xmas/Jan then we will have to reassess of course.

We have a manager that gets bad press from ex players and the media but is still rated by top managers.  The new owners have not been what we thought they would be either.  The harsh reality is we have spent over a decade falling behind and we have now two options

Spend loads

Patience

Or alternatively, get someone like Mourhino but without the money and see what happens.  If that does happen and we are asked to be patient for five years then I hope those calling for Benitez to be sacked will not criticise the new regime.

Personally I see Benitez leaving in the summer and us looking for a manager to work with, oh yes two Yanks who go behind a managers back.  Sometimes its better the devil you know and hopefully that devil will change his ways slightly

[LFC2007]

Firstly I must say do love the way people who are Rafa supporters/apologists pick their targets for comparison. If it's not Shankly, it's Wenger or Ferguson. Given our record in the League under Rafa I'd be sticking with the Souness's or the Bruce Rioch's of this World if it was me but there you go.

That said, the way I see it if we're making a comparison with Wenger over the last four years and Rafa is this. Firstly, Rafa has rebuilt a team in Premiership terms which finished fourth the season before he arrived, into a team which if it pulls it's finger out of it's erse has got about an even money chance of finishing fourth this season as well. This has been done at considerable expense, and all the while I would guess that for the vast majority of his tenure he has had within his first choice team (if there is such a thing) Gerrard, Carragher, Finnan, Riise and to a lesser extent Kewell and Hyppia. There may be others but I'm no statistician.

Wenger, if we really must make the comparison (and once again I'm amazed that people who like Rafa choose this particular battleground) had a team which the season before Rafa came won the Premiership. They won it without losing a game as it happens, and in the vast majority of games the team was largely unchanged (he doesn't go an awful lot for Rafa style doesn't the Arsenal manager). Now from memory (and I'm not going to spend an awful lot of time on this, if I can't remember them then feck it) they had Seaman in goal, Lauren, Sol Campbell, Keown, Ashley Cole, Vierra, Pires, Ljundberg, (fecked if I can remember the other central midfielder) Henry and Bergkamp. It was just about as good a team as I've seen in English domestic football anyway and I include our fantastic teams in that as well.

Now in the time Rafa has been rebuilding a team whilst keeping Gerrard and Carragher as the fulcrum of his side, Wenger has rebuilt the whole unit from top to bottom. During that period he did reach a Champions League final where they lost to a very good Barcelona team, and I'm not sure but I've a feeling they won the FA Cup as well. They didn't though win the Champions League like we did, and we did finish third to their fourth in two seasons. If we look at what we have and where we are now though, surely the sensible comparisons end there? Wenger has built from scratch a young team which is in severe danger of winning the Premiershipand has spent a fraction of what we have in the process.

Someone once said that Wengers methods on team selection are "stuck in the nineties". I'm not sure about that. I think the comparison with any manager to be perfectly honest and the Frenchman in terms of picking up players for nothing and moulding them into an exiting little team is pointless. It's probably best we just accept that he has his own way of doing things and in his particular sphere he is a bit of a one off. Rafa doesn't look too good in direct comparison, but then again not that many managers do I wouldn't have thought.

Wenger's also been at Arsenal a lot longer than Rafa has with us, and in that time he's honed his ability to scout out young talent, he has scouting networks in place. Our scouting system has been overhauled completely since Rafa's arrival. Only in the next couple of seasons may we begin to see some of these players come through, if not, then you can argue that Rafa hasn't the 'Wenger touch' when it comes to young quality talent. This young side he's built has taken time and arguably at the expense of success, he began it having already had 8 years experience in English football.