Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!

MwahahahaHahaha. Not true.

Size of words does matter.

[RedBlood]

It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!

what if you have small words and you dont know how to use them??

what do you suggest because i have a erm..freind that erm.. uses small words poorly   

[Stu.Murph]

FWIW, I see 3-5-2 as little more than a novelty that we can get away with against lesser sides.  I'd prefer to see a 4-5-1/4-3-3 if we were to move away from a 4-4-2 but I'm not sure that we have the wingers to pull it off consistently at the moment (the way, say, Chelsea did with Robben and Duff supporting Drogba).

I'd go along with that and am interested to hear Lando's (if you've sobered up yet Lando!) thoughts on why (and how) a 3-5-2 would/could be the way forward.

A 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation does seem the way to go if we were to move away from the tried and tested 4-4-2 and Rafa clearly likes to play this way from his days at Valencia and also during his first 1 and a 1/2 seasons at LFC. Considering they have won 2 consecutive championships playing this way, it makes sense to look at Chelsea's 4-3-3 as the benchmark and see where we fall short. As soon as you do this it's completely obvious where we are lacking.

Starting with the frontman, Crouch would seem to be the obvious candidate to play as a lone striker but for me he is a sitting duck when he plays alone. While he can hold the ball up and play with his back to goal his natural game is to drop deeper and come looking for the ball. I don't think he is mobile enough for the role and we saw in some of the big games last season when Rafa adopted a 4-5-1 the likes of Terry and Carvallo looked pretty comfortable looking after Crouch. And if you look at Drogba the guy is an absolute brute of a forward. I rated him long before this season (despite some comedy misses during his first 2 years) because of his sheer physical prescence, no little pace and more than enough skill. He is an absolute handful for BOTH centre-backs to deal with and is the best lone frontman in world football bar none.

Then we come to the wingers. Duff and Robben (and to a lesser extent Cole) at their best during Chelsea's first title season were absolutely unstoppable. Both very quick, technically very good, a goal threat and most importantly they can both dribble with the ball at speed and that scares fullbacks sh.i.tless. We don't have anyone in the team that can do it. Even Kewell who was excellent last season cannot offer these qualities. For all his attributes Kewell seems to have lost a step (no doubt due to the numerous injuries) and has subsequently (and to his credit) become a more intelligent player but he doesn't attack players the he did at Leeds anymore. He doesn't scare teams like Robben and Duff did during that 1st season. Plus, if you have wingers that can run at (and past) people your lone frontman will receive less attention from the 2 centre-halves. Untill we go and get ourselves a Ribery or a Queresma or perhaps a Duff then it's unlikely (for me) that Rafa could make 4-3-3 work on a regular basis. Could Pennant do a job as one of the wingers? I'm not sure he is quite up to the job but there's no doubt that he has stepped up his game just lately and he seems to be playing with more confidence so we will have to wait and see on that front.

Good post Scott.  I'd agree with all of that and that's why I think it's so vital that we sign a top class wide man for each wing this summer (with Pennant and Kewell as back-ups).  A class striker's on the wish list, too, don't get me wrong--but true quality on the flanks would improve our all-round attacking play exponentially.  We need someone of the calibre of Ronaldo or Robben running the touchline for us! 

I disagree with all those who say we need a right winger. Gerrard on the right occassionally with Mascherano in the middle, Pennant and Luis Garcia provide different kinds of threats and all have the quality to produce something good enough to win us a game. On the otherside i've said a million times, I like and rate Kewell. But he's just not reliable enough due to injuries and we don't have the backup good enough to rely on consistently over a period of time.

We also need someone who can finish the chances we can create.

On the subject of a 3-5-2 what people doesn't understand is teams still defend as a 4-5-1 or a 4-4-2 with that formation. Simply due to the fact if you defend with three in mdfield and a team attacks with full backs you're knackered as it will end up 6 vs 3 in mdfield.

A few years ago under Houllier he got slagged to death for taking Hamann off in a european game away to Leverkusen and people said thats why we lost. Thats got very little to do with it infact. Hamann didn't have the legs to require the neccessary pressure on the ball and was having a stinker of a game. What Houllier should have done was pulled a defender off and gone like for like as our 4 in midfield, simply couldn't get near Leverkusens 6. They effectively played a 3-6-1 which became a 3-4-3 when they attacked and we couldn't cope with it, regardless of Hamann being there or not. The real critisism should have been of this, but the know nothings blame the "substitution of Hamann".

[Bad Bob]

It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!

Is that what ya missus tells you?

No need to be supercilious, Stuart! 

[Stu.Murph]

It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it!

Is that what ya missus tells you?

No need to be supercilious, Stuart! 

Listen Bob, at the end of the day, its not my vocabulary my missus wants me for...

[Stu.Murph]

Actually am single... so I guess I can't use that arguement.

[stmichael]

I'll say it time and time again, remember the Valencia team Rafa used to manage? He used a 4-2-2-1-1 formation. With Albelda+Baraja in DM/CM roles with a RM in Rufete, LM with Vicente and Aimar behind the lone striker... i believe we could do this with Alonso+masch, RM Pennant, LM Gonzalez and Gerrard behind the lone striker. Also Mourinho likes to use this formation but instead of using RM/LM, he uses the wing system to support the lone striker.

During his days at Porto, he used to have Constinha and Maniche in the DM/CM role and his first two seasons at Chelsea he had Makelele and Essien in that position behind Lampard and Drogba with Robben and Joe cole on both wings... it's really quite an effective system to use. But then again knowing Rafa, he likes to have different formations against different teams. And the fact that he wanted to sign Simao was for the reason of using him on the RM/LM and behind the lone striker role just like Garcia.


That Valencia side was so well-built. The pieces just fit together.  If we compare, I think the player we're missing is Aimar, who played in front of two CMs (Albelda-Baraja). The closest we have is Garcia, but he's of course out. Don't think Gerrard is suited to the central position behind a striker. I'd say he's our Baraja or perhaps Rufete.

Simao would be able to play all those three positions LM, AM, RM, but I reckon he'd be used at LM/RM almost all the time.

Mourinho uses either 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 with a diamond midfield. So he has three CMs, one defensive behind two CMs in both systems. He then alternates between a central attacking midfielder + two strikers and two wingers + a lone striker.

Simple really

[Stu.Murph]

I'll say it time and time again, remember the Valencia team Rafa used to manage? He used a 4-2-2-1-1 formation. With Albelda+Baraja in DM/CM roles with a RM in Rufete, LM with Vicente and Aimar behind the lone striker... i believe we could do this with Alonso+masch, RM Pennant, LM Gonzalez and Gerrard behind the lone striker. Also Mourinho likes to use this formation but instead of using RM/LM, he uses the wing system to support the lone striker.

During his days at Porto, he used to have Constinha and Maniche in the DM/CM role and his first two seasons at Chelsea he had Makelele and Essien in that position behind Lampard and Drogba with Robben and Joe cole on both wings... it's really quite an effective system to use. But then again knowing Rafa, he likes to have different formations against different teams. And the fact that he wanted to sign Simao was for the reason of using him on the RM/LM and behind the lone striker role just like Garcia.


That Valencia side was so well-built. The pieces just fit together.  If we compare, I think the player we're missing is Aimar, who played in front of two CMs (Albelda-Baraja). The closest we have is Garcia, but he's of course out. Don't think Gerrard is suited to the central position behind a striker. I'd say he's our Baraja or perhaps Rufete.

Simao would be able to play all those three positions LM, AM, RM, but I reckon he'd be used at LM/RM almost all the time.

Mourinho uses either 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 with a diamond midfield. So he has three CMs, one defensive behind two CMs in both systems. He then alternates between a central attacking midfielder + two strikers and two wingers + a lone striker.

Simple really

Gerrard should NEVER play off the striker. Ever!

It was a 4-2-3-1 formation... known to most people as a 4-5-1/4-3-3 whatever you perspective is and Liverpool don't have the players capable of such a formation consistently.

Simao's not good enough either.

[red37]

Gerrard should NEVER play off the striker. Ever!

Not being obtuse or anything...but can you expand on that statement. Ive seen Gerrard do most things well enough on the park. Its not beyond his game though is it. Agreed the lad is best deployed deeper up the pitch than playing in the 'hole'. But id like to genuinely hear the reasons why you say 'never ever' stu.

The purpose of this thread is made for such observations and its interesting to hear all your thoughts. (and no more fancy words please...you'll have Baz in here again)   

[RedBlood]

gerrard's best position is centre midfeild running a game but he can do a very very good job in the aimar position as well as right midfield

[Stu.Murph]

Gerrard should NEVER play off the striker. Ever!

Not being obtuse or anything...but can you expand on that statement. Ive seen Gerrard do most things well enough on the park. Its not beyond his game though is it. Agreed the lad is best deployed deeper up the pitch than playing in the 'hole'. But id like to genuinely hear the reasons why you say 'never ever' stu.

The purpose of this thread is made for such observations and its interesting to hear all your thoughts. (and no more fancy words please...you'll have Baz in here again)   

He offers to much defensively and is better coming from a deeper position. Simple as that. Why have one of the worlds best tacklers in an attack position?

Gerrard is overated in an attacking sense. I hear people talking about him like he's a Zidane or something. Gerrard isn't as skillful and as technical a player as Scholes is, let alone Zidane. He's not got Scholes' intelligence either. Both are natural midfielders. They both do different things from the middle of the park, weather its the right side or the centre for Steven.

He's a box to box ball winning driving force basically. He's more physical than creative. I'm not saying he can't create, he clearly can, but its not his main strength.

His best attributes are long distance shooting, stamina, aggression, leadership, work rate and tackling.

His worst attributes (although he's very good at these) are his decision making, vision/invention, ball control, short passing and movement. Now like I said, he's very good in these area's, but he's not great, he needs to be in a position which gets the best out of all his main attributes aswell as allowing him to do everything. That position is midfield, either right or central.

People used to say playing him in the "holding role" takes away 50% of his game... he should play in attacking role...

Which is rubbish, because you're taking away the other 50% of his game by doing that.

He's an alrounder, not a specialist in the hole player.

[Stu.Murph]

gerrard's best position is centre midfeild running a game but he can do a very very good job in the aimar position as well as right midfield

Gerrard's nowhere near as good as Aimar technically or in terms of vision or flair or dribbling. He's absoloutely nowhere near.

I'd rather see Gerrard in the "holding midfield" position than seeing him playing just off a striker.

[stmichael]

I agree with you Stu. I don't like Gerrard as a second striker but it says more about Rafa's opinion of the strikers we do have that he still persists with playing Gerrard there every now and again.

There's no doubt Gerrard is more a centre-midfielder than a centre-forward. But because of the 1-striker system we use on occasions, sometimes the position he's playing in these days looks closer to centre-forward than centre-midfield.

And for me, this means we might be underutilizing half (or more than half) of Gerrard's game: the defensive side.

I say more than half because I personally think he's more effective and complete as a midfielder when he's defending than when he's attacking. His tackling is miles better than his passing in my book.

Now that's a personal opinion and very open to debate, but what's more clear cut is this: Stephen Gerrard's neither exclusively a defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder. He's both.

[ConnO'var]

Gerrard should NEVER play off the striker. Ever!

Not being obtuse or anything...but can you expand on that statement. Ive seen Gerrard do most things well enough on the park. Its not beyond his game though is it. Agreed the lad is best deployed deeper up the pitch than playing in the 'hole'. But id like to genuinely hear the reasons why you say 'never ever' stu.

The purpose of this thread is made for such observations and its interesting to hear all your thoughts. (and no more fancy words please...you'll have Baz in here again)   

He offers to much defensively and is better coming from a deeper position. Simple as that. Why have one of the worlds best tacklers in an attack position?

Gerrard is overated in an attacking sense. I hear people talking about him like he's a Zidane or something. Gerrard isn't as skillful and as technical a player as Scholes is, let alone Zidane. He's not got Scholes' intelligence either. Both are natural midfielders. They both do different things from the middle of the park, weather its the right side or the centre for Steven.

He's a box to box ball winning driving force basically. He's more physical than creative. I'm not saying he can't create, he clearly can, but its not his main strength.

His best attributes are long distance shooting, stamina, aggression, leadership, work rate and tackling.

His worst attributes (although he's very good at these) are his decision making, vision/invention, ball control, short passing and movement. Now like I said, he's very good in these area's, but he's not great, he needs to be in a position which gets the best out of all his main attributes aswell as allowing him to do everything. That position is midfield, either right or central.

People used to say playing him in the "holding role" takes away 50% of his game... he should play in attacking role...

Which is rubbish, because you're taking away the other 50% of his game by doing that.

He's an alrounder, not a specialist in the hole player.

I agree with Stu on this completely..... Having Gerrard play off a lone striker or even in the "hole" behind 2 strikers blunts his strengths... He is one player that I'd hesitate to use in this so-called "free" role as it takes away 50% of his game and strengths.... He is a box-to-box midfielder of the highest calibre and when giving him a "free" role behind the strikers, there is a real chance he'll drift in and out of the game as he would be looking mostly to feed off the 2nd ball and dulls his effectiveness to lead and influence a game as he'd be concentrating mostly on the attacking portion of the game...

IMO he's clearly most effective in conventional or traditional central midfield role as he's able to lead by example in all aspects of the game.... Don't get me wrong, he's a fine attacking midfielder whose better than most but he's lack of (and I use the term extremely loosely here!) vision separates him from the very best players in the world in that particular postion (Zidane, Aimar et al).....

As for the discussion of the 3-5-2 formation that's been discussed, I'd like to offer my views on this as well...

Personally, I'm a fan though I prefer a 5-3-2 formation....

The problem we have in pulling this off effectively, is mainly the fact that we simply don't have the personel to do it right.

For this formation to work, a few things need to be there.

The 3 central midfielders are no problem..... with Javier, Xabi and Stevie lining up across the centre circle, we have the right people to pull this off..... Momo would be disastrous in this kind of formation... he simply does not have the technical ability that this type of formation requires......

We need 2 exceptional wingbacks with plenty of juice in the engine room (to cover both attacking and defensive duties) AND plenty of technical ability and at least a modicum of flair to take on and beat opposing fullbacks in attack....... Basically a Daniel Alves and a Gianluca Zambrotta type players......

We need 2 hardcore, tough, traditional centrebacks which we should be ok with in Carrager and Agger (give him time... from what I've seen, this boy is going to be quality). We also need a ball-playing, quick (not pacy... just quick off the mark) centrehalf who's comfortable playing either in a last-man, sweeper role ( to prevent confusion that can occur when playing with 3 centrehalfs) or as a stopper in front of the 2 centre-halfs who can be deployed as a second holding midfielder should the opposition decide to flood the midfield with 6 players..... Basically a Franco Baresi, Matthias Sammer type of player..... to be honest, this is gonna be tough...... since Sammer retired, I've not seen anyone in the game today that can do the job superbly....

Up front is where this system is most flexible as with the attacking options that would be available down the flanks we can play a number of different options. A "little" and "large" for pace and aerial threat..... or a fox-in-the-box and hold-up merchant..... or two big men for physical presence... or clever diagonal channel running strikers that can open up the space for our midfielders to exploit..... We have the players that can do this right now but we need another one..... either a Davide Villa/Samuel Eto'o or Ashton/Luca Toni type of players.....

Don't get me wrong... this is not a slagging-off of our players post.... By and large, with a few exceptions, I'm happy with who we've got.... It's just that, in order to play this formation, in my view, the above is what we need..... else with the players we've got...... a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 (god, I hate this formation... the football ends up too boring) is what we should be playing on a consistent basis.......

BTW.... hi everyone.... it's been awhile since I've last posted (away on work and a much needed holiday) and I came back and saw this excellent thread so I thought I'd jump in.... 

[red37]

you lads are doing a grand job here...