Formations: - Player roles

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Scottbot » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:26 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:The was I see it, assuming you have to right players, 3-5-2 is the system I would use.

Most teams have two strikers. If you employ 4 at the back, that means there's a constant threat of central 1-on-1's, due to the fullbacks being occupied at all times by the opposition winger. (CB1 vs Striker1 andCB2 Vs Striker2.)
In a back 3, there is always the spare man, who can then act as a sweeper/defensive midfielder when the threat/opportunity arises.

"Ah, but that means that the opposition's wide players have more time and space on the ball..."

Yes it does, but the wingbacks deal with the opposition wingers first and foremost, and the attacking midfielder on that particular side slots in to combat the fullback:

I like 3-5-2 as a change-up but i wouldn't be too chuffed if we played it every week. It does have it's advantages and perhaps the most obvious is that it would allow Rafa to play 3 of his 4 centre-mids and it guarantess Gerrard the freedom to get on tha ball in the final third of the pitch. It also ensures you are strong through the middle and if you can keep the ball you shold have a numerical advantage in midfield and having that spare man at the back means marking 2 frontmen can be considerably easier.

However, 3-5-2 can be difficult to coach particularly when just about every British player grows up (and is familiar and comfortable) playing 4-4-2. For me the formation brings with it a number of problems when compared to 4-4-2. I think if you asked them, most centre-halves would tell you they prefer to play in a central 2 (as opposed to a 3) because it is simple. If a high ball comes in the player nearest the ball will go up for it while his partner is likely to drop off slightly incase their is a mistake, the attacking player wins the flick or both defender and attacker miss the ball. In a central 3 knowing when to attack the ball becomes more difficult and it becomes more likely that are cases where 2 players attack the same ball or in some cases, no-one attacks. Hansen did a great job with his analysis with England following the loss in Croatia a little while back. We played with Carra, Terry and Ferdinand (i think) who are all fantastic no nonsense centre-halves but they looked completely uncorfortable with the system and indecisiveness ruled. Hansen quoted " The defenders get too close together and you end up with two or three going for the same ball. What happens is that at some point nobody goes for it and we saw that two minutes into the match when Terry and Jamie Carragher went for same ball"

Another problem with 3-5-2 in today's premiership is that so many teams play with just one man up front using a 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, 4-3-3 or other variations. With just one striker to mark it leaves you with 2 spare at the back and it can be very difficult to deal with midfield runnners coming on to you, or you afford their midfielders too much time on the ball playing in front of you. In this situation one of your 3 will have to step out and deal with the deep lying 2nd striker or their most attacking midfielder so it's clear there are a lot of complexities. As Mick has already pointed out the most common way to play against 3-5-2 is to play a lot of diagonal balls (classic lower league football this) towards the corners with a player like Owen or Andy Johnson to do the running. This will either keep their wing-backs 'pinned' back into what now becomes a 5-man defense or splits the 3 centre-halves. If you watch England's 5-1 demolition of Germany a few years ago it was built entirely on this very simple tactic. there is also the opportunity to create 2 on 1 situations down the flanks against 3-5-2 if you can get you fullback overlapping as much as possible.

What personnel would we need to play 3-5-2 all the time? Obviously the wing-backs are key, they need to be able to run all day and be able attack and defend with equal aplomb. Riise could do the job in our team as he has always been a classic tweener but the role would not suit Finnan who's strength is clearly his defending and you need your wing-backs to attack with real purpose. a ball playing centre-half is another must for me, someone who can bring the ball out from the back and start attacks, and in Agger we certainly have a player capable of this. In 4-4-2 against the lesser teams when we have a lot of possession you will always see both our fullbacks on the ball and getting into attacking positions. Essentially i think 3-5-2 is a defensive formation that can often serve you well in away games but i would be pis.s.ed if we lined up that way at Anfield each week.
Last edited by Scottbot on Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Scottbot
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 4919
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Winchester, Hampshire

Postby Stu.Murph » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:35 pm

Scottbot wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:The was I see it, assuming you have to right players, 3-5-2 is the system I would use.

Most teams have two strikers. If you employ 4 at the back, that means there's a constant threat of central 1-on-1's, due to the fullbacks being occupied at all times by the opposition winger. (CB1 vs Striker1 andCB2 Vs Striker2.)
In a back 3, there is always the spare man, who can then act as a sweeper/defensive midfielder when the threat/opportunity arises.

"Ah, but that means that the opposition's wide players have more time and space on the ball..."

Yes it does, but the wingbacks deal with the opposition wingers first and foremost, and the attacking midfielder on that particular side slots in to combat the fullback:

I like 3-5-2 as a change-up but i wouldn't be too chuffed if we played it every week. It does have it's advantages and perhaps the most obvious is that it would allow Rafa to play 3 of his 4 centre-mids and it guarantess Gerrard the freedom to get on tha ball in the final third of the pitch. It also ensures you are strong through the middle and if you can keep the ball you shold have a numerical advantage in midfield and having that spare man at the back means marking 2 frontmen can be considerably easier.

However, 3-5-2 can be difficult to coach particularly when just about every British player grows up (and is familiar and comfortable) playing 4-4-2. For me the formation brings with it a number of problems when compared to 4-4-2. I think if you asked them, most centre-halves would tell you they prefer to play in a central 2 (as opposed to a 3) because it is simple. If a high ball comes in the player nearest the ball will go up for it while his partner is likely to drop off slightly incase their is a mistake, the attacking player wins the flick or both defender and attacker miss the ball. In a central 3 knowing when to attack the ball becomes more difficult and it becomes more likely that are cases where 2 players attack the same ball or in some cases, no-one attacks. Hansen did a great job with his analysis with England following the loss in Croatia a little while back. We played with Carra, Terry and Ferdinand (i think) who are all fantastic no nonsense centre-halves but they looked completely uncorfortable with the system and indecisiveness ruled. Hansen quoted " The defenders get too close together and you end up with two or three going for the same ball. What happens is that at some point nobody goes for it and we saw that two minutes into the match when Terry and Jamie Carragher went for same ball"

Another problem with 3-5-2 in today's premiership is that so many teams play with just one man up front using a 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, 4-3-3 or other variations. With just one striker to mark it leaves you with 2 spare at the back and it can be very difficult to deal with midfield runnners coming on to you, or you afford their midfielders too much time on the ball playing in front of you. In this situation one of your 3 will have to step out and deal with the deep lying 2nd striker or their most attacking midfielder so it's clear there are a lot of complexities. As Mick has already pointed out the most common way to play against 3-5-2 is to play a lot of diagonal balls (classic lower league football this) towards the corners with a player like Owen or Andy Johnson to do the running. This will either keep their wing-backs 'pinned' back into what now becomes a 5-man defense or splits the 3 centre-halves. If you watch England's 5-1 demolition of Germany a few years ago it was built entirely on this very simple tactic. there is also the opportunity to create 2 on 1 situations down the flanks against 3-5-2 if you can get you fullback overlapping as much as possible.

What personnel would we need to play 3-5-2 all the time? Obviously the wing-backs are key, they need to be able to run all day and be able attack and defend with equal aplomb. Riise could do the job in our team as he has always been a classic tweener but the role would not suit Finnan who's strength is clearly his defending and you need your wing-backs to attack with real purpose. a ball playing centre-half is another must for me, someone who can bring the ball out from the back and start attacks, and in Agger we certainly have a player capable of this. In 4-4-2 against the lesser teams when we have a lot of possession you will always see both our fullbacks on the ball and getting into attacking positions. Essentially i think 3-5-2 is a defensive formation that can often serve you well in away games but i would be pis.s.ed if we lined up that way at Anfield each week.

Awfully kind to an awful system. Good post as usual though.
Image
User avatar
Stu.Murph
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:32 am
Location: Liverpool

Postby Sabre » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:38 pm

What personnel would we need to play 3-5-2 all the time? Obviously the wing-backs are key, they need to be able to run all day and be able attack and defend with equal aplomb. Riise could do the job in our team as he has always been a classic tweener but the role would not suit Finnan who's strength is clearly his defending and you need your wing-backs to attack with real purpose. a ball playing centre-half is another must for me, someone who can bring the ball out from the back and start attacks, and in Agger we certainly have a player capable of this. In 4-4-2 against the lesser teams when we have a lot of possession you will always see both our fullbacks on the ball and getting into attacking positions. Essentially i think 3-5-2 is a defensive formation that can often serve you well in away games but i would be pis.s.ed if we lined up that way at Anfield each week.


We have used once this season, in an away game against a weak team I don't remember, and I think we won 3-0. They way we played it was because they played direct balls that crushed always against our centre backs. We crushed them in the counterattack.

3-5-2 must not be necessarily defensive, Barcelona had their glory under Cruyff under that formation. But to become it an attacking system you have to advance the defence a lot, as you say you have to have 2 wing-backs that are tireless and fast (Barcelona had them in Sergi Barjuan and Ferrer), play very together (I think you say packed) and have a lot of technical ability, because if you haven't the possesion, then you're fúcked like was Barcelona in the final against Milan 10 years ago or so.

Not my fav formation
Last edited by Sabre on Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
SOS member #1499

Drummerphil, never forgotten.
User avatar
Sabre
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 13178
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:10 am
Location: San Sebastian (Spain)

Postby Scottbot » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:45 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:Awfully kind to an awful system.

Proabably right there mate. I'm not a fan but like any formation it has it's merits with the right blend of players (the Germans haven't done so bad over the years playing it?) but it needs an excellent coach and a lot of practice to make it work week in week out. I rememberreading Tony Adams autobiography years ago and he really sang Venables praises in terms of the tactics he employed leading up to and during Euro 96 when we used his wing-backs/christmas tree (as the media called it) formation. Funnily enough it is Venables who has taken a lot of flack for England's use of the formation against Croatia just recently.
Last edited by Scottbot on Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Scottbot
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 4919
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Winchester, Hampshire

Postby Bad Bob » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:06 pm

Good thread.  Perhaps another way to approach this is to ask, given our current personnel, what formation(s) are we best suited to playing?  And, what sorts of players would we need to buy in order to make other, potentially appealing, formations work?

FWIW, I see 3-5-2 as little more than a novelty that we can get away with against lesser sides.  I'd prefer to see a 4-5-1/4-3-3 if we were to move away from a 4-4-2 but I'm not sure that we have the wingers to pull it off consistently at the moment (the way, say, Chelsea did with Robben and Duff supporting Drogba).
Image
User avatar
Bad Bob
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 11269
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:03 pm
Location: Canada

Postby Scottbot » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:05 am

Bad Bob wrote:FWIW, I see 3-5-2 as little more than a novelty that we can get away with against lesser sides.  I'd prefer to see a 4-5-1/4-3-3 if we were to move away from a 4-4-2 but I'm not sure that we have the wingers to pull it off consistently at the moment (the way, say, Chelsea did with Robben and Duff supporting Drogba).

I'd go along with that and am interested to hear Lando's (if you've sobered up yet Lando!) thoughts on why (and how) a 3-5-2 would/could be the way forward.

A 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation does seem the way to go if we were to move away from the tried and tested 4-4-2 and Rafa clearly likes to play this way from his days at Valencia and also during his first 1 and a 1/2 seasons at LFC. Considering they have won 2 consecutive championships playing this way, it makes sense to look at Chelsea's 4-3-3 as the benchmark and see where we fall short. As soon as you do this it's completely obvious where we are lacking.

Starting with the frontman, Crouch would seem to be the obvious candidate to play as a lone striker but for me he is a sitting duck when he plays alone. While he can hold the ball up and play with his back to goal his natural game is to drop deeper and come looking for the ball. I don't think he is mobile enough for the role and we saw in some of the big games last season when Rafa adopted a 4-5-1 the likes of Terry and Carvallo looked pretty comfortable looking after Crouch. And if you look at Drogba the guy is an absolute brute of a forward. I rated him long before this season (despite some comedy misses during his first 2 years) because of his sheer physical prescence, no little pace and more than enough skill. He is an absolute handful for BOTH centre-backs to deal with and is the best lone frontman in world football bar none.

Then we come to the wingers. Duff and Robben (and to a lesser extent Cole) at their best during Chelsea's first title season were absolutely unstoppable. Both very quick, technically very good, a goal threat and most importantly they can both dribble with the ball at speed and that scares fullbacks sh.i.tless. We don't have anyone in the team that can do it. Even Kewell who was excellent last season cannot offer these qualities. For all his attributes Kewell seems to have lost a step (no doubt due to the numerous injuries) and has subsequently (and to his credit) become a more intelligent player but he doesn't attack players the he did at Leeds anymore. He doesn't scare teams like Robben and Duff did during that 1st season. Plus, if you have wingers that can run at (and past) people your lone frontman will receive less attention from the 2 centre-halves. Untill we go and get ourselves a Ribery or a Queresma or perhaps a Duff then it's unlikely (for me) that Rafa could make 4-3-3 work on a regular basis. Could Pennant do a job as one of the wingers? I'm not sure he is quite up to the job but there's no doubt that he has stepped up his game just lately and he seems to be playing with more confidence so we will have to wait and see on that front.
Last edited by Scottbot on Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Scottbot
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 4919
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Winchester, Hampshire

Postby Bad Bob » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:24 am

Scottbot wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:FWIW, I see 3-5-2 as little more than a novelty that we can get away with against lesser sides.  I'd prefer to see a 4-5-1/4-3-3 if we were to move away from a 4-4-2 but I'm not sure that we have the wingers to pull it off consistently at the moment (the way, say, Chelsea did with Robben and Duff supporting Drogba).

I'd go along with that and am interested to hear Lando's (if you've sobered up yet Lando!) thoughts on why (and how) a 3-5-2 would/could be the way forward.

A 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation does seem the way to go if we were to move away from the tried and tested 4-4-2 and Rafa clearly likes to play this way from his days at Valencia and also during his first 1 and a 1/2 seasons at LFC. Considering they have won 2 consecutive championships playing this way, it makes sense to look at Chelsea's 4-3-3 as the benchmark and see where we fall short. As soon as you do this it's completely obvious where we are lacking.

Starting with the frontman, Crouch would seem to be the obvious candidate to play as a lone striker but for me he is a sitting duck when he plays alone. While he can hold the ball up and play with his back to goal his natural game is to drop deeper and come looking for the ball. I don't think he is mobile enough for the role and we saw in some of the big games last season when Rafa adopted a 4-5-1 the likes of Terry and Carvallo looked pretty comfortable looking after Crouch. And if you look at Drogba the guy is an absolute brute of a forward. I rated him long before this season (despite some comedy misses during his first 2 years) because of his sheer physical prescence, no little pace and more than enough skill. He is an absolute handful for BOTH centre-backs to deal with and is the best lone frontman in world football bar none.

Then we come to the wingers. Duff and Robben (and to a lesser extent Cole) at their best during Chelsea's first title season were absolutely unstoppable. Both very quick, technically very good, a goal threat and most importantly they can both dribble with the ball at speed and that scares fullbacks sh.i.tless. We don't have anyone in the team that can do it. Even Kewell who was excellent last season cannot offer these qualities. For all his attributes Kewell seems to have lost a step (no doubt due to the numerous injuries) and has subsequently (and to his credit) become a more intelligent player but he doesn't attack players the he did at Leeds anymore. He doesn't scare teams like Robben and Duff did during that 1st season. Plus, if you have wingers that can run at (and past) people your lone frontman will receive less attention from the 2 centre-halves. Untill we go and get ourselves a Ribery or a Queresma or perhaps a Duff then it's unlikely (for me) that Rafa could make 4-3-3 work on a regular basis. Could Pennant do a job as one of the wingers? I'm not sure he is quite up to the job but there's no doubt that he has stepped up his game just lately and he seems to be playing with more confidence so we will have to wait and see on that front.

Good post Scott.  I'd agree with all of that and that's why I think it's so vital that we sign a top class wide man for each wing this summer (with Pennant and Kewell as back-ups).  A class striker's on the wish list, too, don't get me wrong--but true quality on the flanks would improve our all-round attacking play exponentially.  We need someone of the calibre of Ronaldo or Robben running the touchline for us!  :nod
Image
User avatar
Bad Bob
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 11269
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:03 pm
Location: Canada

Postby red37 » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:53 am

"exponentially"


your not allowed to use 'big' words.
Image



TITANS of HOPE
User avatar
red37
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:00 pm

Postby LFC #1 » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:56 am

red37 wrote:"exponentially"


your not allowed to use 'big' words.

Especially when you can't get small ones right.  :D
Image
User avatar
LFC #1
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 8253
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:53 am

Postby babu » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:23 am

LFC #1 wrote:
red37 wrote:"exponentially"


your not allowed to use 'big' words.

Especially when you can't get small ones right.  :D

here is a big word -

WHEELBARROW


:wwww
Image



                                   *    *    *    *    *
User avatar
babu
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 3826
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:28 pm
Location: Malaysia

Postby whylongball? » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:36 am

Bad Bob wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:FWIW, I see 3-5-2 as little more than a novelty that we can get away with against lesser sides.  I'd prefer to see a 4-5-1/4-3-3 if we were to move away from a 4-4-2 but I'm not sure that we have the wingers to pull it off consistently at the moment (the way, say, Chelsea did with Robben and Duff supporting Drogba).

I'd go along with that and am interested to hear Lando's (if you've sobered up yet Lando!) thoughts on why (and how) a 3-5-2 would/could be the way forward.

A 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation does seem the way to go if we were to move away from the tried and tested 4-4-2 and Rafa clearly likes to play this way from his days at Valencia and also during his first 1 and a 1/2 seasons at LFC. Considering they have won 2 consecutive championships playing this way, it makes sense to look at Chelsea's 4-3-3 as the benchmark and see where we fall short. As soon as you do this it's completely obvious where we are lacking.

Starting with the frontman, Crouch would seem to be the obvious candidate to play as a lone striker but for me he is a sitting duck when he plays alone. While he can hold the ball up and play with his back to goal his natural game is to drop deeper and come looking for the ball. I don't think he is mobile enough for the role and we saw in some of the big games last season when Rafa adopted a 4-5-1 the likes of Terry and Carvallo looked pretty comfortable looking after Crouch. And if you look at Drogba the guy is an absolute brute of a forward. I rated him long before this season (despite some comedy misses during his first 2 years) because of his sheer physical prescence, no little pace and more than enough skill. He is an absolute handful for BOTH centre-backs to deal with and is the best lone frontman in world football bar none.

Then we come to the wingers. Duff and Robben (and to a lesser extent Cole) at their best during Chelsea's first title season were absolutely unstoppable. Both very quick, technically very good, a goal threat and most importantly they can both dribble with the ball at speed and that scares fullbacks sh.i.tless. We don't have anyone in the team that can do it. Even Kewell who was excellent last season cannot offer these qualities. For all his attributes Kewell seems to have lost a step (no doubt due to the numerous injuries) and has subsequently (and to his credit) become a more intelligent player but he doesn't attack players the he did at Leeds anymore. He doesn't scare teams like Robben and Duff did during that 1st season. Plus, if you have wingers that can run at (and past) people your lone frontman will receive less attention from the 2 centre-halves. Untill we go and get ourselves a Ribery or a Queresma or perhaps a Duff then it's unlikely (for me) that Rafa could make 4-3-3 work on a regular basis. Could Pennant do a job as one of the wingers? I'm not sure he is quite up to the job but there's no doubt that he has stepped up his game just lately and he seems to be playing with more confidence so we will have to wait and see on that front.

Good post Scott.  I'd agree with all of that and that's why I think it's so vital that we sign a top class wide man for each wing this summer (with Pennant and Kewell as back-ups).  A class striker's on the wish list, too, don't get me wrong--but true quality on the flanks would improve our all-round attacking play exponentially.  We need someone of the calibre of Ronaldo or Robben running the touchline for us!  :nod

Thats exactly what i think and say in other thread. Top quality wingers neede! And i agree with the word "exponentially"
Top thread btw!!
User avatar
whylongball?
 
Posts: 613
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:40 am

Postby red37 » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:47 am

LFC #1 wrote:
red37 wrote:"exponentially"


your not allowed to use 'big' words.

Especially when you can't get small ones right.  :D

:D    great that spellcheck...(i should use it sometime)
Image



TITANS of HOPE
User avatar
red37
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 7884
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:00 pm

Postby Scottbot » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:04 am

LFC #1 wrote:
red37 wrote:"exponentially"


your not allowed to use 'big' words.

Especially when you can't get small ones right.  :D

:D
User avatar
Scottbot
>> LFC Elite Member <<
 
Posts: 4919
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Winchester, Hampshire

Postby Bad Bob » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:20 pm

It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it! :;): :laugh:
Image
User avatar
Bad Bob
LFC Guru Member
 
Posts: 11269
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:03 pm
Location: Canada

Postby Stu.Murph » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:42 pm

Bad Bob wrote:It's not the size of the word, lads, it's how you use it! :;): :laugh:

Is that what ya missus tells you? :D
Image
User avatar
Stu.Murph
LFC Super Member
 
Posts: 954
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:32 am
Location: Liverpool

PreviousNext

Return to Liverpool FC - General Discussion

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 77 guests