Liverpool FC Forum

[devaney]

Stu I think the point that I was trying to make with the stats was simply that our tactics allowed us to control the game giving Chelsea very limited opportunity of a threat. Absolutely any system can be subjected to a mistake. For the record I have never blamed Gerrard for losing us the game. It was an unfortunate slip that could have happened to anybody. Looking at it again I don't even know why Sakho chose to pass the ball to him when Flanaghan was is a better position. Mistakes happen.

Everton have actually beaten City at Goodison in their last four games. Hopefully that will continue and you will be forced to buy a few extra pints 

[Santa]

Rodgers didn't get it wrong -- he was out-thought and tactically outwitted on that day which I'm sure will be an eye opening lesson learnt by Rodgers....................

I like Rodgers and his approach to the game but it is obvious that he, like the team are still lacking in experience and a couple pieces of final jigsaw to make us a great team..............

There are time when a different approach is needed to get us the results and the team will need to have the winner mentality rather than just try to blow the other teams apart................

So yeah Rodgers were schooled on Sunday but it is no great shame considering Maurinho's experience.

On the one hand you say "Rodgers didn't get it wrong" and then follow up with "Rodgers were schooled on Sunday"

Seems like not all of what Stu said was wrong then ?   :D

Stu the Red has been getting a lot of flak for daring to suggest that BR was tactically outwitted against Mourinho. A lot of the flak is imo down to some just taking the opportunity to have a dig at a member they have issues with.

Personally I tend to side with Stu's perception of the match.

We played exactly the type of game Maureen expected i.e. a full on "Charge of the Light Brigade" AND given our propensity for defensive errors/accidents Maureen was more than happy for Chelsea to sit on their a'rse and wait for our inevitable error to occur.

I won't condemn BR for looking to win the game BUT I do question (like Stu) his tactics for this match. It was a game we could afford to draw but certainly NOT one to lose.

In this respect our usual "gung ho" full on frontal assault against Chelsea's prepared position was imo unnecessary and naive.

Some will argue that we were doing ok until Gerrards mistake/slip , they obviously fail to recognise that it was precisely the kind of mistake/slip that Chelsea were expecting and  waiting for (and believe me if Stevie G hadn't made that error/slip somebody else probably would have).

The games over, we're all gutted, some of you may not agree with Stu's (or my) post mortem of the game, fair enough, but can we leave out the personal attacks on our respective integrity or supposed support for the club.

I'm happy that BR's our manager and i'm not calling for his head, but like Stu, I think BR got it wrong the other day.

Of course I meant Rodgers have got his tactics wrong last Sunday but it probably didn't translate properly over my text. However if you were to read my entire reply you would have got what I meant.

I applaud Rodgers for getting us to play this exciting again but there need to be a certain tactics and intelligence and knowing when to play a different way to get a result, and I'm sure he would have realised it after watching the game again but right after the game he was very sure he had got his tactics right and Chelsea played ugly spoiler football.

I equate Maurinho's tactics to Ali's rope-a-dope fight style against Foreman...soaking up the punches and frustrate your opponent, and every pundits called that genius at work.

No one in the right mind will call for Rodgers head but teams will now learn to park their bus at Anfield to frustrate us so we better learn how to cope with this playing style fast.

[Santa]

Had we drew that game, we'd have won the league. Due to the potential of that result to destroy the confidence, we may finish as low as third. Unfortunately, I'm a little bit f*cked that our manager either...

1. Didn't see it coming.
2. Was to naive or pig headed enough to think it didn't matter what they done...

IMO I think Rodgers tried to proof a point against Maurinho by sticking to his all out attack style of football. Maurinho is too smart for that. He would have saw how we blew apart the likes of City, Spurs, Arsenal etc with an all out blitz in the first half an hour and close out the game. He would also know that we slowed down the game in the final twenty mins or so and concede lots of goals during those time so his game plan was to closed up the space for our forwards to run into and happy to soak up the pressure, which explain our superior pocession % and having NO shots on target in the first half.

It almost seems like he have not prepared the team to learn to control the tempo of the game in case we cannot breach their defence in the first 20mins, and the players were lost, becoming frustrated and resorts to long balls and shooting from outside the box. This to me was alarming and maybe this was because we were on a back of 11 games winning run and we thought we could simply just blitz every team with this style, so I hoped this loss would make us into a stronger team in the future.

Naive? Yes Pig headed? No...but probably a bit over confidence and partly stubborn, and like I mention -- trying to proof a point to his mentor? Just my opinion tho

[Stu the Red]

Stu I think the point that I was trying to make with the stats was simply that our tactics allowed us to control the game giving Chelsea very limited opportunity of a threat. Absolutely any system can be subjected to a mistake. For the record I have never blamed Gerrard for losing us the game. It was an unfortunate slip that could have happened to anybody. Looking at it again I don't even know why Sakho chose to pass the ball to him when Flanaghan was is a better position. Mistakes happen.

Everton have actually beaten City at Goodison in their last four games. Hopefully that will continue and you will be forced to buy a few extra pints 

That's the point exactly, I don't see how you can say we "controlled" the game... possession and shot stats are very misleading.

If anything it was Chelsea who controlled us. They had us exactly where they wanted us and we played right into their hands.

[devaney]

Stu I think the point that I was trying to make with the stats was simply that our tactics allowed us to control the game giving Chelsea very limited opportunity of a threat. Absolutely any system can be subjected to a mistake. For the record I have never blamed Gerrard for losing us the game. It was an unfortunate slip that could have happened to anybody. Looking at it again I don't even know why Sakho chose to pass the ball to him when Flanaghan was is a better position. Mistakes happen.

Everton have actually beaten City at Goodison in their last four games. Hopefully that will continue and you will be forced to buy a few extra pints 

That's the point exactly, I don't see how you can say we "controlled" the game... possession and shot stats are very misleading.

If anything it was Chelsea who controlled us. They had us exactly where they wanted us and we played right into their hands.

Ok 

[Scottbot]

Stu - just explain to me what Liverpool actually did wrong in the first 45 minutes? Perhaps you're right, maybe I'm incapable of seeing where we went wrong so educate me because so far you have failed to do so.For the purpose of this exercise lets take Gerrard's bit of bad luck out of the equation because your view that there should have been players behind Gerrard  is far too simple. Just how much of a threat were Chelsea in the first 45 minutes? All match they only had 27% possession, 4 shots on target and 3 corners. They built a wall that we failed to break down. I have read nothing on here that convinces me that BR was naive or got his tactics wrong. I think to suggest that we were far to gung-ho is also not how I saw the game. 

I have refrained from being rude. I certainly don't want you taking things too seriously. I appreciate that you are a very sensitive shy retiring sort of a bloke 

Chelsea set up in a very defensive mind set. Everyone on gods green earth knew that was going to be the case. I don't honestly believe that anybody thought Chelsea were going to come and attack us, not even their own deluded fans.

Mourinho came to Liverpool with a game plan of winning via a set piece goal or a mistake from one of our players. Had they not been leading with 20 minutes or so to go they would have opened up in an attempt to win the game from them, that's when we could have brought on Sturridge and tried to open it up.

Liverpool by hook or crook have conceded stupid goals this season. Mostly down to individual errors, however, some are down to the way we play tactically, leaving ourselves open and playing with an element of risk, some of that risk includes players on the ball being in space and being fairly iscolated to allow them time to pick a pass... if they fall over or slip or their is a heavy pass, we sometimes struggle to win the ball back quickly in our own half due to the space between our own players, especially at the back. There have been times through out the season where poor decisions have nearly cost us goals where the system has contributed and their have been others which were purely individual errors.

Mourinho knew Chelsea would score at Anfield... We've conceded a shocking amount of goals this season, Mourinho knew that due to the way we play, or an error, they would create something of note even if they defended in their own box due to the way we try to defend and due to the standard of the goalkeeper he also knew if they had that chance they'd probably take it. His job was then to keep Liverpool out.

As much as I hated the spaniard with a passion, that is the sort of game we wouldn't have lost under him. He'd have nailed that tactically and had us set up not to lose, knowing that the last two games were far more winnable than this one. Had we played deep and defensively ourselves and tried to stop Chelsea and changed our system we'd have been far harder to break down. Had we concentrated on not conceding a goal and succeeded then the job would have been done, had we allowed them more space in their half and they actually scored, they wouldn't have been as solid as their shape they had worked so hard on isn't something they'd have been able to use all the way through the match as the spaces would have opened up.

Due to us effectively pinning Chelsea back, Their wingers never really had to track back and their midfielders never had to move from infront of their defence meaning that space was practically none existant.

We created two or three half chances, thats all. It was naive to think he'd allow us to get off to a flying start like most other teams do, he'll have known that was exactly the case, hence the early time wasting to get under our skin.

I do think had we set up to keep them out, due to their mind set from the off and due to the players they didn't have on the pitch that would have been more than achievable.

On your point about had we drew this game then drew away to palace I'd be moaning about not playing for a win in the Chelsea game, thats just complete and utter bollox and clutching at straws. I'd have been critisising the palace result.

You're entitled to your opinion on why we lost that game, you can blame Gerrard all you like, it was his fault he slipped he slipped and no-one elses, it was the systems fault their was no-one their to cover him. The system has served us brilliantly most of the season... sometimes though you need to be flexible and you need to be able to adapt, sometimes, the manager needs to recognise the situation and prepare for it, sometimes you can't show a blatent a disregard for the opposition and have to set our your side accordingly...

Unfortunately for Liverpool football club, a lot of fans are pig headed and think we should play the way we play and let the opposition worry about us... thats exactly what happened. We didn't worry about the opposition and we came unstuck.

There are some good points in your post Stu lad but I don't agree with it.

- it seems to me that your whole post points to the idea that if we were playing a different system and tactics then Gerrard's slip would not have been punished but he has been picking the ball up off of centre-halves from similar positions for years. In fact, maybe it were playing a deeper one the mistake simply happens closer to our own goal and Ba simply has less distance to travel?

- up until the goal our first half display was far from gung ho. It was aggressive but controlled and dominant. I cannot recall them causing any problems on the counter or breaking on us at pace.

- had we played it really safe and sat back as they did I have a feeling they may have got on top of us and we would likely have conceded anyway. We don't for the most part look comfortable when we drop deep and defend. We've got away with it a few times this season but usually by the skin of our teeth. For my mind we're not really a side that can do an about face and completely change up the tactics in that regard, at least not yet. Champions League football may remedy this though.

- My criticisms would be centered.  Around our performance in the 2nd half. The lads showed some inexperience and frustration and desperation (in the latter stages) was evident as the game wore on. Gary Neville's analysis of our play was spot on. We were forcing it, hitting hopeful crosses and taking long shots rather than probing for the opportunity to get the ball into Luis's feet in the box.

[maypaxvobiscum]

Yeah. All those long shots Gerrard was making were really a waste. I get it that he wants to make up for his mistake but he was really being a headless chicken and the more we missed the less composed we became. And I never understood all the crosses into their box when they are clearer so much bigger than us and winning most of the aerial battles. It's such a bitter game and of all people who slipped it had to be Gerrard

[Penguins]

Let's not forget Chelski is one of the toughest fixtures of the year.
City lost at home vs them too which says something about how hard they are to break down.
I would look to other games like Villa, Hull, Southampton etc if you want to be a harsh critic.

But overall you can't argue that Rodgers has had a really fine season.
Up there fighting with 2 teams that has doped their way to the top with money.

[Stu the Red]

Scott, Schwartzer had absolutely nothing to do mate and that's the end of it.

I could have played in goal for Chelsea and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference, we had to lure them out, we failed, the manager got it wrong. Simple as that.

[JC_81]

I think those applauding Mourinho and Chelsea's tactics against us are wrong.  Chelsea's game plan to frustrate us worked perfectly, but the fact is they came for a point and were extremely lucky to get 3.  They didn't 'control us' as some have said, very much the opposite as we didn't let them touch the ball.  If Gerrard doesn't slip I think we go on to win that 1-0 or 2-0 in the second half.  The nature and timing of the goal unfortunately knocked the stuffing out of us, as it would have done a lot of teams.

I also don't agree that Rodgers was 'naive' in going 'gung-ho'.  For a start he didn't go gung-ho.  A midfield with Gerrard sitting and Lucas/Allen as 'advanced' midfielders is not, and never will be, gung-ho.  Defending high should have been safe as Ba isn't particularly quick and barring Gerrard's mistake wouldn't have troubled our defence for pace.  If we'd have sat back and played for a draw ourselves which is totally the opposite to how we've successfully set up all season, and conceded a stupid goal from a set piece or something then that, imo, would have been naïve.

We fell short partly due to luck and partly, as Rodgers has stated, due to trying to force it and being impatient second half.  We did not fall short because Mourinho (who has publicly slated Norwich's 'defensive tactics' against him after his Anfield bus park ) 'doing Rodgers' tactically.  We'll learn from it, we're a young team after all.

The fact that we'll feel a bit of disappointment if we 'only come second' speaks volumes about what this guy has done in turning around our fortunes.

I would rate Rodgers' performance as our boss so far as follows:

Tactically - Excellent.  Flexible and learns quickly from mistakes.

Man-management - Second to none.  Has milked every ounce of quality and then-some out of our squad.  How much is directly down to him and how much is down to the sport psychologist that he had the foresight to bring on board none of us know. His handling of the Suarez situation was top class.

Player development - Second to none.  The improvement in young players such as Sterling, Flanno, Henderson, Sturridge who just about still qualifies as young (and recently I would just about add Allen to that) has been great to see.  He gives players a chance if they show the hunger and commitment.  Even the performances milked out of the likes of Skrtel (who I have never really rated) have been impressive.

Media handling - Top class.  He gives them no ammunition.  Talks too much at times for some peoples liking but this keeps the press onside and keeps the pressure off the team.  We've gone from the team people loved to hate in the wake of Evra's false accusations and Suarez biting Ivanovic, to a ,lot of fans' 'second team'.

Transfers - Ok.  Bought some diamonds in Coutinho and Sturridge, as well as decent buys like Toure on a free, Allen and Sakho.  But the jury is out on Mignolet, while Borini, Aspas, Sahin, Moses, Cissokho, Assaidi, Alberto etc have either been shocking or not given chances.

Overall - Over-achieving so far.

YNWA

[fivecups]

Chelsea's game plan to frustrate us worked perfectly, but the fact is they came for a point and were extremely lucky to get 3. 

Great post as usual and I agree with most of it but why do you think Chelsea came for a point? What good would a point have been to them, they needed all three to give themselves a chance at the title. I think they played for nil nil in the first half and planned to try and win it in the second, but I can't see why they would have played for a draw.

[JC_81]

Chelsea's game plan to frustrate us worked perfectly, but the fact is they came for a point and were extremely lucky to get 3. 

Great post as usual and I agree with most of it but why do you think Chelsea came for a point? What good would a point have been to them, they needed all three to give themselves a chance at the title. I think they played for nil nil in the first half and planned to try and win it in the second, but I can't see why they would have played for a draw.

You make a fair point mate.  I just think they reckoned the league was gone by then as realistically they weren't going to overhaul two teams in 3 games, especially when those other 2 teams had nothing else to play for.  But at the same time Mourinho didn't want to be embarrassed at Anfield and played for a draw but wouldn't have been that bothered by a narrow defeat imo.  Lets face it if he really wanted to win it he wouldn't have given a debut to a rookie centre back (who by the way looks a player).  At that point he had CL on his mind as he'd never won it with Chelsea first time around.  That's what I reckon anyway.

[aCe']

Steep learning curve for Rodgers and I'm sure he knows it. His enthusiasm and drive got us to being top of the league with 3 games to go and his naivety and lack of experience probably lost us the title. Overall though, he's had a brilliant season and he'll be applauded by all for his efforts. I have no doubt that he'll learn from that mistake against Chelsea and from repeating it against Palace.

[damjan193]

Moral of the season: defending IS part of the game.

[Stu the Red]

This summer is crucial. Suarez must be wondering what on earth he's got around him in this dressing room after seeing that tonight. The forwards couldn't have done anymore, we've scored a stunning number of goals this season, to score 99 goals (probably going to be over a hundred) and not win a league is absolute madness.

Tonight was an absolute shambles and yet again the defence was f*cking woeful. Gerrard didn't have a great game, but Skrtel and Johnson in particular was shocking. Sahko and Flannagan didn't cover themselves in glory either.

I absolutely knew this defence this season wouldn't be upto it before a ball was kicked and its proven the case. The attack has been absolutely breathtaking at times and has far exceeded expectations however at the back to conceed the sheer numbers we have is crazy.