Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

It struck me this morning that I think I'm just about as optimistic for a new season as I've ever been, and life being what it is (and indeed football being what it is) fate has a habit of kicking you in the nuts in such circumstances.

A couple of points/disclaimers before we start. I think the manager ought to be spending more money and recruiting more players this Summer, but the fact that he isn't may well not be his fault. I'll say that bit again just for fun because I know some people won't bother reading it, it may well not be his fault. The owners I suspect are keeping a much tighter grip on the purse strings than we could ideally do with. Fortunately, nobody else with the exception of Man City is spending much either, with Arsenal and Man Utd being massively in credit from their dealings thus far, and us having spent more than we've pulled in along with Chelsea.

So two questions really. Firstly, what would constitute abject failure for people should it all go pear shaped? If for instance we finished third in the league and didn't win a trophy again, but were up there for much of the season would that be enough? What if we scrambled into fourth but had daylight in between us the challengers? What if we were fourth and never in it but won the FA Cup perhaps, or reached the Champions League final? Are there any circumstances imaginable which would result in some people feeling that a change of manager may be prudent? By imaginable, I mean realistically imaginable as well, "if we got relegated" is hardly likely. If such a scenario doesn't exist, do people advocate leaving the current manager in charge for the whole of his current contract regardless of how we go, in the hope/belief that at some point he'll do the bizzo? If Rafa can't/won't/doesn't win feck all, does that mean it is then by definition physically impossible as he is a top manager and we may just as well stick with him anyhow? (I know that's quite a few questions but they are all broadly of the same theme, basically what would you consider to be an unacceptable season).

Question two if it goes horribly wrong is who's fault is it? Is it nobodies, just one of those things, a season to forget about but we can press on and put things right next time around? Is it the managers fault, is it reasonable after six seasons to expect him to be at the top of his game, and therefore reasonable to doubt him if he subsequently turns out not to be? Is it the owners fault for not backing him enough in the transfer market perhaps, for bleeding the club dry with their bottomless expense accounts? Is it reasonable considering the fact that other than Man City nobody else has spent hugely, to still expect us to compete even though we haven't splashed the millions?


Myself, I am pretty disappointed with the Summers transfer dealings so far. I really like the signing of Johnson, but I definately wouldn't have signed Aquilani. I definately would have signed Owen, and I think we absolutely desperately need a centre half and a striker/attacking midfielder to cover for Torres/Gerrard. I do believe that the purse strings are being knotted, but I do also believe there are affordable options out there which we should be buying if money is scarce. While I think the owners have not helped Rafa at all, I think we should just go get Cambell/Distin and Tuncay/Kranjaar and have done with it. If we don't get a centre half at the very least and the inevitable crisis occurs, the blame for me will fall back on the manager.

All that said, I remain optimistic that we'll go very close.

[Ciggy]

I feel depressed as feck going into the new season, we needed to add atleast two quality players without losing any for starters, but all we have done is replace Xabi and Arby and no one of quality for other positions has been signed.

I am feckin p!ssed off at our owners and at the fact that we are skint.

Degen, Voronin to name a few are not good enough for this club and there should have been money there to bring in better quailty than this dross.

I am Dirks biggest fan but we should have brought in a proper right winger, another striker, another midfielder and a defender than can play RB and in central defence.

I am not looking forward to the new season atall it feels we where so close and now it seems we are so far away.

I could be wrong ofcourse and we could go on to win the league, lets hope I am.

[heimdall]

I'm feeling very confident for the new season, I think we will win the league. It all depends whether Rafa is willing to let some of the youngsters have a game, we HAVE TO start getting players like Nemeth and Pachecho and to a lesser extent Spearing into the first team now and again and see what they are made of. Not just in coca cup but in league games. For strikers there is no risk other than you potentially loose some attacking push but if they are awful then you sub them off anyway or only let them on when you are comfortably controlling a game.

I have high hopes for Nemeth but Rafa has to see the light and play him, but he won't, he'll stick with Wash and Voronin, that is the one thing you can be guaranteed of 

[kazza]

I believe what I believe every season, this year we will win the league, CL, FA Cup and Carling Cup. Until I am proven wrong I am happy to believe that and if we do "fall short this term" then I will continue to stay the course(it's called being a supporter). If you don't have hope before the season even starts, then there is no real point now is there.

Walk On

[aCe']

Ill try to make it brief so here it goes...

Im optimistic about the new season... i havent thought for a minute before the start of the last few seasons that we'd win it, i do now for a number of reasons...

1. the mancs are alot weaker than they used to be... that doesnt mean that theyr not good enough to win it, it just means that they'll need to work as hard as we do to beat the smaller sides since their difference maker has been shipped out for 80mill.

2. Chelsea are starting the season with an unproven manager and a questionable formation... if they dont manage a good start to the season i can see them finishing 3rd in the league but with excellent runs in cup competitions...

3. Arsenal lack experience... cant maintain a lead in the game, will always struggle against hard working sides, leaky defence..etc

4. With Aquilani and Johnson i feel we have improved on our starting 11 when it comes to the attacking aspects of our game...

Ill agree that in terms of transfers we havent really gone out and strengthened like we would have liked, but then again the fact that our closest rivals havent either (in most cases they actually come into the new season with weaker starting 11s) kind of offsets that need to vastly improve on things...

Now to address the main question and what i think is the point of the thread...

If we dont end up atleast second in the league within 5 or so points from the champs, only one of the following would have to happen for us not to seriously consider sacking the manager:

1) we get to the champs league final
2) we win the FA cup, get to the CL semis and end no lower than 3rd
3) we win the CC, get to the CL Semis, get to the FA semis, and end no lower than 4th

Personally as i said, i think we'll win it... We have the starting 11 and 2 or 3 more players on the bench who are all good enough to be playing for us... if we get lucky with injuries, and things at Chelsea, ManUtd and Arsenal go as expected, we have absolutely no reason to even be considering ending this season outside the top 2... All comes down to how Rafa handles matters... no funny selections and no uncalled for rants. hopefully the attacking mentality he showed towards the end of last season continues too, dont see why it shouldnt.

[Judge]

why isnt gybs in here ? (is gybs AB in disguise?)

[GYBS]

Three days before the season finally starts and we are talking about failure already ?

We ended last season just 4 points behind the winners during a season where our two best players only played together 17 times in the league and 4 of those times it was coming on as a sub , we have also improved the right back position ten fold with the addition of johnson . Yes loosing Xabi is a blow but i think the extra bits that aquaman will bring us a new dimension from midfield and more creativity in the final third and goals . It would be nice to add a couple more but why a right winger when we have a guy who played out right last season and was second only to ronaldo in terms of end product ? A CB is the one that could prove tricky - i have high hopes for kelly - impressed during pre season but as been mentioned maybe a back up for right back before exposing him to the pressures of the middle so another cb would be nice - turner for under 9 million would be good if not then a short term solution - a distin or campbell if not then young kelly gets his chance to replace sami and we then have one experienced class cb in carra, two very good cbs with agger having potential to be world class and skrtel providing solid back up .

Now the main prob for some is striker - this is where it is hard - we play one up high and that person will always be torres bar Carling cup then we have Ngog,Voronin,Kuyt, and maybe nemeth but think to early for pacheco . what sort of striker are we looking at who isnt expsensive and willing to sit on bench most of the time - now for me ashton would be good if he wasnt injured permantly - i would like carew as offers a lot and there is also Pavlychenko who i like but not sure we can get any of those last two ? so who else is out there ?maybe babel can step up ?! i think rafa will bring in another cb plus one more attacking player - either a striker or attacking midfielder but i reckon an attacking midfielder along the likes of Krancjar - but even if we dont get anymore players then im pretty happy that we have a really really good chance to win this year and i think we will do and there will be no failure to worry about and no blame game to look and  no sacking of manager.

[GYBS]

why isnt gybs in here ? (is gybs AB in disguise?)

getting obsessed with me judge 

[bigmick]

Three days before the season finally starts and we are talking about failure already ?

Says the man who started a poll yeterday asking who was most likely to stop us winning the league. You couldn't make it up you really couldn't.

[aCe']

[GYBS]

Three days before the season finally starts and we are talking about failure already ?

Says the man who started a poll yeterday asking who was most likely to stop us winning the league. You couldn't make it up you really couldn't.

Actually the thread stated who was our biggest threat to the title - nothing about failure or sackings but its nice to see you just focussed on one line in the whole post - good work

[bigmick]

Coming back to a couple of the more sensible posts on the thread, I agree with most on here in that I think we've got a great chance this time around. I do think though that our starting eleven may prove to be slightly weaker overall, as although Johnson will offer more than Arbeloa, I don't think we will get a season out of Aquilani which will be equal to Alonso last time around. Of course I can't know for sure, but if he was capable of such performances or at least had shown it so far, I can't help thinking someone else would have been in for him as well for 20 million euros.

Fortunately, only Manchester City and Chelsea can possibly claim to be stronger out of our potential rivals. The Mancs will obviously miss Ronaldo, while Arsenal will obviously miss Toure and Adebayor. even Chelsea while picking up the Russian wingback bloke have swapped Hiddink for Ancellotti and I know who I'd rather have. So provided we are somehwere near as strong as last season (and there's no reason why we shouldn't be apart from the Alonso/Aquilani swap) then we must have a huge chance simply becasue we went close last season.

It should be an interesting one, and there's been some good replies on the thread from the people who understood the original question.

[Sabre]

Three days before the season finally starts and we are talking about failure already ?

The clock didn't stop for Rafa GYBS. Those who lost the faith in the manager, most of them, didn't truly recover the faith in the manager. So unless we win the league, those who lost the faith in the manager, will keep doubting the manager, some may say in the mean time that Rafa has improved, some will be waiting the chance, but all of them will hang the medal of I'm right if the things go pear shaped. (If we win the league they'll also be right, needless to say, because Rafa heard them in their advices).

A few of them Rafa doubters though, are honest with themselves and the people. I'll talk about Toshack here. What does Toshack say about the title topic? something that it's difficult to deny GYBS mate. In Toshack's opinion, 4 years without a title are too many for a club like Liverpool. In Toshack's opinion, Dalglish is more than just a sidekick that knows the club, he may perfectly be the Rafa substitute if things go pear shaped (in fact he thinks that the signing of Dalglish is aimed as just in case option)

Toshack doesn't do tricks nor pretends to have recovered a bit of faith in the manager, he always doubted the manager from the day one and say things honestly. He doesn't bloody care to be proved wrong, nor he pretends his position is spot on all the time. And I'm afraid GYBS, that on this account, he may be right. I think that if everything goes pear shaped, this will be the last season of Rafa here.

My personal opinion? In my opinion explaining the reasons of a future failure without knowing the factors that cause the failure is pointless. If Gerrard gets a 7 month injury and Torres a 3 month one, I'll hardly blame Rafa of it, but hard luck.

However, if our squad proves to be short during this season and we pay for it, I'll blame Rafa, because even if he can't spend big bucks, he could do "war economy" signings, like clubs like Sevilla did when there was no money. So I don't know what will I say if things go pear shaped, it depends. But I do think that the clock didn't ever stop for Rafa, and if things go wrong, Toshack will be right and he'll be sácked.

[aCe']

Coming back to a couple of the more sensible posts on the thread, I agree with most on here in that I think we've got a great chance this time around. I do think though that our starting eleven may prove to be slightly weaker overall, as although Johnson will offer more than Arbeloa, I don't think we will get a season out of Aquilani which will be equal to Alonso last time around. Of course I can't know for sure, but if he was capable of such performances or at least had shown it so far, I can't help thinking someone else would have been in for him as well for 20 million euros.

Fortunately, only Manchester City and Chelsea can possibly claim to be stronger out of our potential rivals. The Mancs will obviously miss Ronaldo, while Arsenal will obviously miss Toure and Adebayor. even Chelsea while picking up the Russian wingback bloke have swapped Hiddink for Ancellotti and I know who I'd rather have. So provided we are somehwere near as strong as last season (and there's no reason why we shouldn't be apart from the Alonso/Aquilani swap) then we must have a huge chance simply becasue we went close last season.

It should be an interesting one, and there's been some good replies on the thread from the people who understood the original question.

if its any consolation Mick, i dont think many have actually read your opening post, atleast not the whole thing 

[bigmick]

Coming back to a couple of the more sensible posts on the thread, I agree with most on here in that I think we've got a great chance this time around. I do think though that our starting eleven may prove to be slightly weaker overall, as although Johnson will offer more than Arbeloa, I don't think we will get a season out of Aquilani which will be equal to Alonso last time around. Of course I can't know for sure, but if he was capable of such performances or at least had shown it so far, I can't help thinking someone else would have been in for him as well for 20 million euros.

Fortunately, only Manchester City and Chelsea can possibly claim to be stronger out of our potential rivals. The Mancs will obviously miss Ronaldo, while Arsenal will obviously miss Toure and Adebayor. even Chelsea while picking up the Russian wingback bloke have swapped Hiddink for Ancellotti and I know who I'd rather have. So provided we are somehwere near as strong as last season (and there's no reason why we shouldn't be apart from the Alonso/Aquilani swap) then we must have a huge chance simply becasue we went close last season.

It should be an interesting one, and there's been some good replies on the thread from the people who understood the original question.

if its any consolation Mick, i dont think many have actually read your opening post, atleast not the whole thing 

I don't know for sure whether people deliberately don't read stuff, or they can't be bothered to read it, or they just assume they know what's going to be in the post by the thread starter or what. It's constantly a mystery to me this misinterpretation of peoples point, even when you type things twice over it makes absolutely no difference.

Mind you, they can't even read the title of their own threads it seems so it's no surprise. It's a shame though at the moment that seemingly any discussion on football at any level just gets massacred by silliness. I went onto GYBS's thread yesterday and answered his question, and got attacked for it because I hadn't answered it in the way he meant it. I then ansered it in the way he meant it, and got attacked again. Since then, he's had a bit of a bee in his bonnet for reasons best known to himself, and he decides to come onto this thread and start all over.

Anyway all that aside, for those who can't be bothered to read the thread opener, a brief summary:

I think we have a great chance of winning the league this season.

I don't think the owners are sufficiently backing the manager, and I think that will be partly to blame if we don't end up winning it.

I really like the signing of Glen Johnson.

Nowhere in the thread, at any stage, have I said either that we HAVE to wina  trophy this season, we certainly don't HAVE TO win the league either.

Nowhere on the thread have I said I want to sack the manager.

They won't read that either, but it makes me feel better anyway.