Liverpool FC Forum

[heimdall]

The fact that what pi.sses me off about the owner is that we are seeing the other big 3 hasn't really improved. Our squad is so closed that it is worth investing in this year. With only couple of addition, for sure, we can pull away from the pack. This will only increase the club value. If worse case scenerio, we can always sell next year. But really not much risk investing more for this year squad. YOu can do the math as the 20million standard fund was never found. Rafa only able to buy from the sales of Xabi....I don't know how many times the owner had screwed us around...He had shown he is in it for the money only. They need to feck off...

oh for heavens sake, do you want the club to go deeper into debt or something? where the feck is this money going to come from to buy more players??? None of the top clubs have got a pot to p1ss in at the moment bar Real Madrid and they must be dangerously over-leveraged now. In case you hadn't noticed we are actually in a bit of a financial crises.

I think Rafa has bought well and if we can get a decent CB in as cover then we'll be alright, barring any major long term injuries. I'm as optimistic about the coming season as I have been for a very long time BUT if Rafa starts arsing about with weird team selections, over rotation etc etc again then yes the knives will be out for him as they bloody well deserve to be.

[account deleted by request]

I am confident that we will challenge for the title, but worried that we will fall short yet again. I feel that we will still rely on Torres and Gerrard more than we should for goals , and that our defence is going to come under even more pressure this season than last.

Last season we let 4 goals in on 3 occasions, I don't think we have done that since before Rafa came. The reasons for me are that we started to play a more aggressive attacking game, instead of having two players covering our back 4 we started to allow Alonso to move forward more. Obviously it was necessary as we needed wins not more draws, but what it did do is show that our defence is perhaps not as solid as in years gone by, and may not be quite up to the task ahead.

Buying Johnson and Aquilani imo will not add to our defense as much as the people they are replacing did. While hopefully they will add the much needed edge to our attacking play, we may start to see our defence struggle a little more, especially as we have had such a poor preseason with injuries to our back line.

I would have liked to see a couple more signings to bolster the team/squad, and feel that if luck doesn't go our way with injuries we could pay a heavy price in lost points.

Thankfully, I think our rivals have as many if not more problems than we have , so we are still in there with a good chance, but I think with a couple more players are fortunes would look much better and more secure.   

I think with the money we have made selling players this season, if we had been given our usual transfer fund to strengthen, we could have had a great chance, by not doing so (so far) we are more reliant on luck than I would like.

[lakes10]

It struck me this morning that I think I'm just about as optimistic for a new season as I've ever been, and life being what it is (and indeed football being what it is) fate has a habit of kicking you in the nuts in such circumstances.

A couple of points/disclaimers before we start. I think the manager ought to be spending more money and recruiting more players this Summer, but the fact that he isn't may well not be his fault. I'll say that bit again just for fun because I know some people won't bother reading it, it may well not be his fault. The owners I suspect are keeping a much tighter grip on the purse strings than we could ideally do with. Fortunately, nobody else with the exception of Man City is spending much either, with Arsenal and Man Utd being massively in credit from their dealings thus far, and us having spent more than we've pulled in along with Chelsea.

So two questions really. Firstly, what would constitute abject failure for people should it all go pear shaped? If for instance we finished third in the league and didn't win a trophy again, but were up there for much of the season would that be enough? What if we scrambled into fourth but had daylight in between us the challengers? What if we were fourth and never in it but won the FA Cup perhaps, or reached the Champions League final? Are there any circumstances imaginable which would result in some people feeling that a change of manager may be prudent? By imaginable, I mean realistically imaginable as well, "if we got relegated" is hardly likely. If such a scenario doesn't exist, do people advocate leaving the current manager in charge for the whole of his current contract regardless of how we go, in the hope/belief that at some point he'll do the bizzo? If Rafa can't/won't/doesn't win feck all, does that mean it is then by definition physically impossible as he is a top manager and we may just as well stick with him anyhow? (I know that's quite a few questions but they are all broadly of the same theme, basically what would you consider to be an unacceptable season).

Question two if it goes horribly wrong is who's fault is it? Is it nobodies, just one of those things, a season to forget about but we can press on and put things right next time around? Is it the managers fault, is it reasonable after six seasons to expect him to be at the top of his game, and therefore reasonable to doubt him if he subsequently turns out not to be? Is it the owners fault for not backing him enough in the transfer market perhaps, for bleeding the club dry with their bottomless expense accounts? Is it reasonable considering the fact that other than Man City nobody else has spent hugely, to still expect us to compete even though we haven't splashed the millions?


Myself, I am pretty disappointed with the Summers transfer dealings so far. I really like the signing of Johnson, but I definately wouldn't have signed Aquilani. I definately would have signed Owen, and I think we absolutely desperately need a centre half and a striker/attacking midfielder to cover for Torres/Gerrard. I do believe that the purse strings are being knotted, but I do also believe there are affordable options out there which we should be buying if money is scarce. While I think the owners have not helped Rafa at all, I think we should just go get Cambell/Distin and Tuncay/Kranjaar and have done with it. If we don't get a centre half at the very least and the inevitable crisis occurs, the blame for me will fall back on the manager.

All that said, I remain optimistic that we'll go very close.

bloody hell mic, i was sure that was one of my post lol.


in short if we fall very short it will be time for Rafa to move on, with thanks.
he has taken so many players to the club and been given years to get it right and in truth if we dont win it this year its over.

i dont blame the owners for him coming up short as over the years they have been here he still has spent loads of money and should have got it right.

even this year he has spent money and still has 18mil to spend.

[GYBS]

does he have 18 mil to spend lakes ? is that a definate ?

[we all dream...]

Abject failure would be not competing / challenging for the title i.e. out of it by february AND not winning a cup. Rafa could be sacked and although I would probably be worried that no new manager could do a better job it could be time for change.

Given the financial situation at the club etc etc etc. We cannot keep saying "Rafa is doing well, if we had more money we would win it.'' Sooner or later we are going to have to realise we are never, unless we are bought out, going to have 'more' money and Rafa hasn't done it yet so time for a change.

Winning a cup but not challenging would be ok, but still worrying as Rafa needs to shows he can win the league in roder for him to stay on.

Challenging but winning a cup (FA at least) would be a good season and I would be happy with Rafa as long as our younger players stepped up and our 'lesser' players started to show their worth.

Obviously winning the league is what we all want and at that point we need to carry on strengthening and tweaking the squad in order to win it again next season.

Basically if we are given no money in the next few weeks and we come very close I will be happy. If we don't compete I will be worried that Rafa has reached his potential and that with our clubs resources he will not be able to win it, I do not know if I would want Rafa out, maybe if that happened then I would.

If we are given more money to strengthen our squad and we still don't compete then we should certainly think about changing the manager.

Having said that I think we will compete and if we do manage to add some players to our current squad then we may very well win it.

Just wish Rafa had some funds...

[baldricks_cunning_plan]

It struck me this morning that I think I'm just about as optimistic for a new season as I've ever been, and life being what it is (and indeed football being what it is) fate has a habit of kicking you in the nuts in such circumstances.

A couple of points/disclaimers before we start. I think the manager ought to be spending more money and recruiting more players this Summer, but the fact that he isn't may well not be his fault. I'll say that bit again just for fun because I know some people won't bother reading it, it may well not be his fault. The owners I suspect are keeping a much tighter grip on the purse strings than we could ideally do with. Fortunately, nobody else with the exception of Man City is spending much either, with Arsenal and Man Utd being massively in credit from their dealings thus far, and us having spent more than we've pulled in along with Chelsea.

So two questions really. Firstly, what would constitute abject failure for people should it all go pear shaped? If for instance we finished third in the league and didn't win a trophy again, but were up there for much of the season would that be enough? What if we scrambled into fourth but had daylight in between us the challengers? What if we were fourth and never in it but won the FA Cup perhaps, or reached the Champions League final? Are there any circumstances imaginable which would result in some people feeling that a change of manager may be prudent? By imaginable, I mean realistically imaginable as well, "if we got relegated" is hardly likely. If such a scenario doesn't exist, do people advocate leaving the current manager in charge for the whole of his current contract regardless of how we go, in the hope/belief that at some point he'll do the bizzo? If Rafa can't/won't/doesn't win feck all, does that mean it is then by definition physically impossible as he is a top manager and we may just as well stick with him anyhow? (I know that's quite a few questions but they are all broadly of the same theme, basically what would you consider to be an unacceptable season).

Question two if it goes horribly wrong is who's fault is it? Is it nobodies, just one of those things, a season to forget about but we can press on and put things right next time around? Is it the managers fault, is it reasonable after six seasons to expect him to be at the top of his game, and therefore reasonable to doubt him if he subsequently turns out not to be? Is it the owners fault for not backing him enough in the transfer market perhaps, for bleeding the club dry with their bottomless expense accounts? Is it reasonable considering the fact that other than Man City nobody else has spent hugely, to still expect us to compete even though we haven't splashed the millions?


Myself, I am pretty disappointed with the Summers transfer dealings so far. I really like the signing of Johnson, but I definately wouldn't have signed Aquilani. I definately would have signed Owen, and I think we absolutely desperately need a centre half and a striker/attacking midfielder to cover for Torres/Gerrard. I do believe that the purse strings are being knotted, but I do also believe there are affordable options out there which we should be buying if money is scarce. While I think the owners have not helped Rafa at all, I think we should just go get Cambell/Distin and Tuncay/Kranjaar and have done with it. If we don't get a centre half at the very least and the inevitable crisis occurs, the blame for me will fall back on the manager.

All that said, I remain optimistic that we'll go very close.

First question - what is a failed season?

Well I'll answer that with a few quotes from yesteryear. "First will always first, second will always be nothing." and "I've had my bad years here to, we finished second once."

So anything other than first for this club is a failure. And that includes last year, despite me saying it was a fantastic season on many occasions, it was still ultimately a failure. So if we don't win anything, it'll be another failed season.

There's a different level of failure of course. Last year's failure wasn't as bad as the 07/08 season where we finished 11 points behind the champions. So again if we don't win anything, it will be a failure but not possibly a massive failure.

Now onto the second question as to who is to blame? Well the manager and players are to blame for things on the pitch. We can't hide away from that anymore, too often we've looked for others to blame. Again going back to last year, I've blamed the officials but ultimately it was our fault for not getting the points needed.

[Sabre]

Just wish Rafa had some funds...

I wish he had, but if he hasn't he has to adapt. And for me, paying 20M for a player whose position, no matter if he is an attacking or holding midfielder is well covered with Mascherano and Gerrard, is a luxury we can't afford if it's true we don't have funds available, not even the ones we recovered from Keane. I would have thought that since the Keane millions saw green light in it's day, recovering some of them would be used for the same purpose.

If you don't have funds at all, and you need a competent striker and a CB, just sign a DIame, that is, an Arbeloa/Riera level player for the midfield, and cover the gaps with 3 competent players no need them being top class. There are many good players out there.

And as much as I support Rafa and I trust him, I would like to have seen that already covered, either with the A plan (funds, great and known players) or a plan B (war economy, clever and cheap signings ala Riera/Arbeloa).

[Bad Bob]

Looking first at the league, I would say that competing for the league throughout the whole season is the minimum requirement.  Let's be honest, we're good enough to challenge (as last year proved) and so we MUST challenge.  If we don't it's simply not good enough.

With that said, it must be acknowledged that this is the toughest league in the world and, ergo, winning the fecker is actually a pretty big ask.  So, if we challenge again and fall slightly short, I won't necessarily say Rafa's time is up (unless of course, we absolutely throw it away, which we didn't do last year, IMHO).  It'll be fine margins at the top and there will be, IMO, three teams with a real shot at winning the title.  We're one of them but we must be realistic and acknowledge that Chelsea and the Mancs will also be there or there abouts.  If we do come up a little short in the end, we must keep it in perspective.

Of course, the other dimension to this all is how we go in the cups.  I think we need to see a proper challenge mounted in both the FA Cup and the Champions League (again) this season.  We've had great success in the CL and I expect us to continue that this time around.  Like the league, though, winning the thing is no cakewalk so let's keep it realistic: given our pedigree in the competition, we should be aiming to reach the quarterfinals minimum to consider it a good CL campaign.  What I would also like to see is us advancing much further in the FA Cup than we have since we won the thing.  It's shocking how mediocre we've looked in this competition and that needs to end.  I think we should be aiming to get to the quarters of that competition as a minimum target as well.

Of course, silverware is the goal of any season and so I emphasize that what I've listed above are 'minimum' standards that we should be achieving this season.  I would much prefer we surpass those minimums and win all three (I see the Carling Cup as a way to evaluate the kids and give the squad players a game, TBPH) but that may not be realistic given the thinness of our squad.  I would say that winning a trophy this season would be an important step forward but, importantly for me, it has to happen in conjunction with a proper title challenge.  If we win a cup this season and yet fail to challenge for the league I think serious questions still need to be asked.  Of course, I back us to challenge and win some silverware this season...maybe even the league itself, rendering the whole discussion of what's good enough moot!

[Reg]

If we fail this year........ well to some extent we'll have shot our bolt because this is the strongest squad we've had for many years and strategically it is vital for us to start the next club power base before the likes of Carra and SG run out of legs. LFC need to win the league to attract the next generation of players to get H&G to commit to the new stadium, to get a third investor on board, to increase our ability to borrow money to buy superior players.

Winning the league is everything, if not then the Takeover thread will go to 2,000 pages until we get the success we crave and need to take this club forward.
 
Looking 2-3 years down the road and we dont win, Rafa will move on blaming the owners and we´ll be back at square one with Carra retired and SG at 32.  Its do or die time really.

[account deleted by request]

First and foremost it depends on what the definition of failure is. For me it would be a widening of the gap points wise, similar failures in the cups to last season and I would expect us to reach the knockout stage of the CL no matter what. 

I am still not a "believer" in Rafa, I think he makes too many costly mistakes and takes too many unnecessary gambles, but this season I will be allowing a little more leeway as it appears that our transfer funds have been syphoned off by our loveable owners.   

I can't see them removing Rafa even if  by some horror we finished 5th and failed abysmaly in the cups, it would cost them too much to do that. So while this may be our best shot at the title for some while to come, I don't believe it will be Rafa's last shot if we fail.

[lakes10]

does he have 18 mil to spend lakes ? is that a definate ?

yes, well hats what i heard at the weekend and some of them are very good friends with the players.
the problem Rafa now has is that 18mil is not the amount he needs to cover the areas he needs, he is looking for around 35mil

[GYBS]

does he have 18 mil to spend lakes ? is that a definate ?

yes, well hats what i heard at the weekend and some of them are very good friends with the players.
the problem Rafa now has is that 18mil is not the amount he needs to cover the areas he needs, he is looking for around 35mil

35 mil ? so maybe he is looking for one more high quality starter and possibly a back up - im guessing turner is the back leaving 20 odd mil for quality ?? if its just 18 mil then not sure who

[Reg]

I agree, it wont be Rafa´s last season even if we finish 5th - the club has decided its course and has invested too much to change now.

Bring in a new manager and make changes, new players PLUS build a new stadium? Forget it! We´re stuck with Rafa whether we like it our not.

[heimdall]

I agree, it wont be Rafa´s last season even if we finish 5th - the club has decided its course and has invested too much to change now.

Bring in a new manager and make changes, new players PLUS build a new stadium? Forget it! We´re stuck with Rafa whether we like it our not.

what a weird argument, are you saying that we can never change manager again. I hope nobody has told Chelsea 

[Madmax]

Sure will challenge for the title and hopefully win it but main concern is fitness of aqua man.. If he recovers and gives us plenty of games then sure we stand a chance... Considering his past injuries just seems unlikely that were going to get alot out of him. Fingers crossed anyhow he stay fit!

Worried a little on out defense aswel conceding a fair bit of goals in certain games. Carragher will not always stay as a rock so its important this season that either agger or skertel play a bigger role.