Liverpool FC Forum

[Madmax]

for real but mate it has to be his method then that are the problem.. Same methods he used at valencia he is enforcing at liverpool and cleary you could see they are not that good.
Mass rotation, bizzare decisions dont bring consitent results!

[Reg]

for real but mate it has to be his method then that are the problem.. Same methods he used at valencia he is enforcing at liverpool and cleary you could see they are not that good.
Mass rotation, bizzare decisions dont bring consitent results!

You could well be right.

But did any manager have the full confidence of the fans until he ACTUALLY won the league?

[bigmick]

Well fair play to some of the more ardent pro's for coming into the discussion. It was very quiet there for a while and the anti's had nobody to either argue with or get insulted by.

Coming back to Lando's point of earlier that you essentially give the manager as long as it takes or you start again, I don't agree with either premise. I can totally understand it (although obviously not agree with it) if someone says that Rafa should get another three years, five even to to see out the project. Surely though you arrive at a point somewhere down the track where you conclude that it just ain't going to happen? I mean, he's not surely going to managing the club for 20 odd years like Ferguson and still waiting on his first Premiership? It can't be a job for life I wouldn't have thought, although I appreciate that for his most ardent and loyal supporters putting a time limit on his tenure may feel uncomfortable.

As for the "starting again" I don't accept that either. We have the makings of a good team if not squad, with the odd top-class player sprinkled through. We obviously still have Gerrard (thank God), while Torres, Alonso, Masherano, Reina and one or two others are top players. I've never accepted this nonsense about "mass exodus's" and besides, if people leave because the manager leaves then they've no business at the club.

I would have thought that a top class manager ought to be able to build upon what we've already got and make us into an even better outfit if he's given 40 million quid to spend in the Summer. It's not starting again, it's more of adding some decoration to the structure.

Someone said to me today and it was a fair point, just imagine if we'd gone and spent 15 million of our 40 million on Arshavin to play behind Torres. We could move Gerrard back central, even right if the situation allowed, and we'd have 25 mill to spend elsewhere. It's doable, but it's not starting again.

Anyway like I say, credit to those who know they're goign to be in the minority for a time for showing themselves.

[Bermenstein]

I think it is the pain of Man Ure winning the league that is magnifying the unrest with supporters at the moment. The fact that they'll be on parity with us on 18 titles will be a bitter pill to swallow if they win the title.

If it was Chelsea 7 points clear at the top, and United behind us, there would be less pessimism  I reckon. I think most on here would settle for Chelsea winning the prem.

But Rafa's got to find a way of turning those flipping draws into wins. The stalling Rafa contract & R.Keane mess & The Yanky feud hasn't fooookin helped either. We are beating ourselves.......

[taff]

I just cant see him being here next season which I think would be a mistake.  We are a good team but have stumbled lately and cant seem to get back into a rhythm and the Mancs form has put extra pressure on.  I just think that Rafa has had a lot to do and hasnt yet got the squad he wants.

But I just cant see him being given time as he is hard to manage and has firmly joined one camp regarding the owners and I just dont see tis ending well for anybody and the fallout will be very damaging.

My real concern is we get someone like Mourhinho for example and they dont win us the league and state that the club needs time due to various reasons and our fans will immediately get on his back and we become Newcastle.

We are not out yet and I still maintain faith but winning this thing is hard with the CL as well and the fact that people seem to think the CL is easy and we should be ten points clear just adds to the pressure.

If Rafa goes and we move forward then great as its LFC I support but I just feel that we are on the verge of a big mistake

[account deleted by request]

I have been wrestling with whether Rafa should go or be given more time for over a year now. Every time I thought that I had made my mind up, something would happen that made me re-evaluate my thoughts, a good cup run, a great win over one of our rivals or another heart breaking performance and I would go back to the drawing board.

My reasons for finally deciding that IMO Rafa should NOT be offered another contract :-

1/ The football we play is neither attractive or more importantly proving to be successful. We struggle to break down teams poor teams and struggle to impose ourselves in games. After 5 years and £200million I think we deserve better.

2/ I think the off field bickering has been a disgrace, we are sadly watching our rivals "knock us off our fkn perch," while arguments rage over contracts and and who should have done what and when. Pathetic!

3/ The whole Keane business sickened me. It seemed it was more important to win the argument with Parry and prove a point, than to win games and maybe a title. To sell Keane and leave us without an adequate replacement shows (to me anyway ) where his priorities lie.

4/ I think he is letting his problems with Parry affect and cloud his judgement on football matters, and that cannot be allowed to continue. Players need to know they are in the team on merit not because a point is being made.

5/ I think we have seen quite a few players driven out of the club because of his poor man management skills and lack of insight. Too many player seem to be first rotated out of form never to recover, their confidence shattered, gradually eased further and further from the first team before eventually being transferred.

6/ The disgraceful carry on with the academy, not only has there been considerable damage done to the developement of our youth players, but also to the recruitment of young players in the future. It really doesn't really matter who is right or who is wrong if the very thing they are fighting over gets broken in the process.   

7/ Too many gambles on team selections and formations. Sometimes they work (or at least we get away with it) and sometimes they don't and we pay the price in dropped points. I think we should be trying to get a settled formation, put our best team out as often as possible and saying to the opposition "beat that", rather than worrying about what the opposition are going to do.

8/ Transfers - too many and not good enough ......... end of.

If I cast my eye back to the cups he has won with a hard eye and not the usual emotional one it also leads one to question his judgement. The CL FINAL - Everyone expected Hamann to play, and it was a terrible tactical decision to leave him out of the starting line up. Yes we eventually won on penalties, but we all know deep in our hearts that it was a one off and that miracles don't happen week in week out. The FA Cup final - again Hamann left out, and only the genius of Gerrard saved us that day. Again we won on penalties but this time not against the cream of Europe but a West Ham side that we should have played off the park. The CL(2) - I don't think anyone should be surprised we struggled to score with Kuyt as our main striker, maybe if we had brought Crouch on earlier or kept Mascherano on we may have forced penalties again. We didn't ..... and we didn't. 

I suppose it all really boils down to the fact that I have finally realised that if we couldn't win the league this season when we had every chance, we probably never will under Rafa. A good cup side, a top 4 side, but not a title winning side.

[112-1077774096]

the club comes before any individual, I believe rafa has got too big for his boots,he thinks he is untouchable hence his washing of dirty linen in public, his perseverance with things that don't work, his contract refusal.

The fans sadly have given him this idea that he untouchable, those fans who see no wrong in him and those fans who think singing his name is the right thing to do as he fecks up once again giving him the belief he is gods gift.

I feel people are choosing him over the owners rather than just choosing him based on success, people need someone to choose over the owners. If we had better owners would rafa still get the plaudits from blinded fans? I doubt it, its as though by siding with beintez people are choosing the lesser of two evils to side with in an argument that shouldn't even be happening, people even blame the owners for rafas failings on the pitch.

His constant refusals to sign a new contract show me he is on his way out, lets thank our lucky stars he didn't sign it as it would be expensive when we feck him off, personally though i feel he is already lined up elsewhere and he will walk meaning he wouldn't get paid out on his contract anyway.

He has been given time and he has been given money and all its got us is struggling to come second in a two horse race. He is tactically naive, he has no man management skills, he uses the fans to gain leverage with the owners (whenever he fecks up of he is trying to get something he trots out the same old bollox about loving the club, the city, the fans etc).

Time to go, if any of my staff made the same mistakes over and over for 5 years they would be gone, in fact they wouldn't even get to 5 years by not learning from their mistakes.

knee jerk? no, red back, I have been saying this for two years

[red_guy]

I have been wrestling with whether Rafa should go or be given more time for over a year now. Every time I thought that I had made my mind up, something would happen that made me re-evaluate my thoughts, a good cup run, a great win over one of our rivals or another heart breaking performance and I would go back to the drawing board.

My reasons for finally deciding that IMO Rafa should NOT be offered another contract :-

1/ The football we play is neither attractive or more importantly proving to be successful. We struggle to break down teams poor teams and struggle to impose ourselves in games. After 5 years and £200million I think we deserve better.

2/ I think the off field bickering has been a disgrace, we are sadly watching our rivals "knock us off our fkn perch," while arguments rage over contracts and and who should have done what and when. Pathetic!

3/ The whole Keane business sickened me. It seemed it was more important to win the argument with Parry and prove a point, than to win games and maybe a title. To sell Keane and leave us without an adequate replacement shows (to me anyway ) where his priorities lie.

4/ I think he is letting his problems with Parry affect and cloud his judgement on football matters, and that cannot be allowed to continue. Players need to know they are in the team on merit not because a point is being made.

5/ I think we have seen quite a few players driven out of the club because of his poor man management skills and lack of insight. Too many player seem to be first rotated out of form never to recover, their confidence shattered, gradually eased further and further from the first team before eventually being transferred.

6/ The disgraceful carry on with the academy, not only has there been considerable damage done to the developement of our youth players, but also to the recruitment of young players in the future. It really doesn't really matter who is right or who is wrong if the very thing they are fighting over gets broken in the process.   

7/ Too many gambles on team selections and formations. Sometimes they work (or at least we get away with it) and sometimes they don't and we pay the price in dropped points. I think we should be trying to get a settled formation, put our best team out as often as possible and saying to the opposition "beat that", rather than worrying about what the opposition are going to do.

8/ Transfers - too many and not good enough ......... end of.

If I cast my eye back to the cups he has won with a hard eye and not the usual emotional one it also leads one to question his judgement. The CL FINAL - Everyone expected Hamann to play, and it was a terrible tactical decision to leave him out of the starting line up. Yes we eventually won on penalties, but we all know deep in our hearts that it was a one off and that miracles don't happen week in week out. The FA Cup final - again Hamann left out, and only the genius of Gerrard saved us that day. Again we won on penalties but this time not against the cream of Europe but a West Ham side that we should have played off the park. The CL(2) - I don't think anyone should be surprised we struggled to score with Kuyt as our main striker, maybe if we had brought Crouch on earlier or kept Mascherano on we may have forced penalties again. We didn't ..... and we didn't. 

I suppose it all really boils down to the fact that I have finally realised that if we couldn't win the league this season when we had every chance, we probably never will under Rafa. A good cup side, a top 4 side, but not a title winning side.

Absolutely spot on Saint.

[bigmick]

Anyone who finds it all a bit doom and gloomy should try RAWK. I've been having a bit of a read on there and the mood is very definately still pro Rafa from what I can see. People only really do it one sentence, and usually along the lines of "Ban this c... and close the thread", but there's no doubt the overwhelming majority on there still are supportive.

My guess is that the majority on here would be too. Often after a poor result the "pro's" go to ground and it's easy to run away with the idea that the whole forum is negative. It isn't, I'm convinced of that and even a fall away from here wouldn't be enough to convince many people that it's time to change the manager, and that's fair enough.

[tonyeh]

Anyone who finds it all a bit doom and gloomy should try RAWK. I've been having a bit of a read on there and the mood is very definately still pro Rafa from what I can see. People only really do it one sentence, and usually along the lines of "Ban this c... and close the thread", but there's no doubt the overwhelming majority on there still are supportive.

My guess is that the majority on here would be too. Often after a poor result the "pro's" go to ground and it's easy to run away with the idea that the whole forum is negative. It isn't, I'm convinced of that and even a fall away from here wouldn't be enough to convince many people that it's time to change the manager, and that's fair enough.

Read that thread on RWAK, it was ridiculous.

[Toffeehater]

If he wins the champions league , he can carry on for at least another season or two .

[eds]

the club comes before any individual, I believe rafa has got too big for his boots,he thinks he is untouchable hence his washing of dirty linen in public, his perseverance with things that don't work, his contract refusal.

The fans sadly have given him this idea that he untouchable, those fans who see no wrong in him and those fans who think singing his name is the right thing to do as he fecks up once again giving him the belief he is gods gift.

I feel people are choosing him over the owners rather than just choosing him based on success, people need someone to choose over the owners. If we had better owners would rafa still get the plaudits from blinded fans? I doubt it, its as though by siding with beintez people are choosing the lesser of two evils to side with in an argument that shouldn't even be happening, people even blame the owners for rafas failings on the pitch.

His constant refusals to sign a new contract show me he is on his way out, lets thank our lucky stars he didn't sign it as it would be expensive when we feck him off, personally though i feel he is already lined up elsewhere and he will walk meaning he wouldn't get paid out on his contract anyway.

He has been given time and he has been given money and all its got us is struggling to come second in a two horse race. He is tactically naive, he has no man management skills, he uses the fans to gain leverage with the owners (whenever he fecks up of he is trying to get something he trots out the same old bollox about loving the club, the city, the fans etc).

Time to go, if any of my staff made the same mistakes over and over for 5 years they would be gone, in fact they wouldn't even get to 5 years by not learning from their mistakes.

knee jerk? no, red back, I have been saying this for two years

I think you hit the nail on the head here peewee monster.

This aura of invinciility started when he won the CL back in 2005 and has disturbingly continued since then! Since 2005 he has only been able to win one more trophy, but the rose tinted brigade has kept blindly defending the indefensible.

Its a real shame that in between all of this (to make matters worse!) we have had tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum run us into the ground. As a desperate plight the "im a better supporter than you" brigade have blamed all problems on the owners when its clear as day that Benitez is ALSO to blame for us not being able to challenge.

I'm amazed and saddened at the same time that we were able to stay first for quite a while. Imagine were we would be right now if we actually had proper owners and a capable manager.

[Ciggy]

There has already been far too many threads like this one, started by people who's ego was so big they thought that their opinion deserved it's own thread. We don't need another one,

[TheRedsFan]

Lets get Frank Rijkaard, has proven to be a good manager with Barcelona

[Owzat]

1) Either Rafa doesn't know what it takes to win the league, or isn't capable of doing it and is powerless to do anything about the excess of draws.

2) Tactics are too often questionable, substitutions seem predetermined. Was it a shock to see Riera taken off first yesterday? Was it a shock that we had two striker options on the bench - N'Gog wasn't used and Babel came on with seven mins plus stoppage time to go.

3) We have struggled in the last couple of months, even when we have got results it's not been convincing. We didn't finish off Championship side PNE until the dying moments with a goal on the counter, didn't beat Chelsea until late on when they had a player sent off and then made two individual errors. And the other win was a last gasp recovery against Pompey.

4) We keep playing the same CBs, disregarding Agger and his contract and desire to play. We've kept a pitiful FOUR clean sheets in the last 15 games. In those same 15 games we've scored 13 goals, gone out of the FA Cup to the bitters and are now clinging onto our title hopes by the ends of our fingernails

5) Signings are largely questionable, not least last summer when we signed a £20.3m striker, sold him in January and didn't replace him. Signed N'Gog who can't get on the field, signed Riera who comes off around 2/3 of the way through every game he starts, Cavalieri who doesn't get a look in, Degen who's always injured and Dossena who is the most expensive defender in our history and a poor one at that. £40m and even the one signing most of us thought was good (Riera) isn't maintaining that good impression

6) Rafa seems blind to what is blindingly obvious, he's still trying to offer ways we can win the league and this time the distraction of the Champions League isn't an excuse. I believe we've gone from seven points ahead of the mancs to seven points behind, based on points at which both sides had played the same number of games - a FOURTEEN point swing.

7) Rafa's lost it. Still clinging on to title hopes, his little rant at fergie, the very public battles with the bosses and about his contract, the stats he places too much faith in like eight points better off than last season and claims that he didn't need to replace Keane which are baffling.


If the owners could get someone of quality in now, I'd seriously consider it if I were them. Write off the Champions League, get someone in to try and resurrect our title challenge.