Job too big for Rodgers?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Is the job too big for Rodgers and last season was a flash in the pan down to Suarez carrying us?

Yes
43
55%
No
28
36%
Not sure
7
9%
 
Total votes : 78

Postby red till i die!! » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:07 pm

7_Kewell » Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:53 pm wrote:I'm really starting to think that there's something wrong. I don't know what, but something's going on behind the scenes and it's wrecking our season. Has BR fallen out with some of the players? Has there been a row between the new lads and the squad from last season?

I don't know what it is, but there's something not right here and the Mig mess is latest instalment.


Its rodgers mate  :nod
He's the one who suddenly decided its now time to drop him. why now and in such a high profile game ?. We still conceded 3 goals so i bet mingy agrees with him 100% and thinks he made the correct call.
We played with no strikers today because we are not scoring goals and we managed to not score again. Massive vote of confidence again by the strikers sitting on the bench who no doubts threw eyes up looking at sterling fluffing chance after chance.
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Postby red till i die!! » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:11 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:02 pm wrote:
Kash_Mountain » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:37 pm wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Dec 14th, '14, 19:18 wrote:I still back him, the memory of our 6-0 away win at Newcastle, the 5-1 against Arsenal, the 4-0 against Everton and the 5-0 against Spurs are still fresh enough in my memory for me to give him the benefit of the doubt. He seriously needs to start learning from his mistakes though.


Learning from his mistakes is what most have been saying, but also, as most have said (myself included), he is to arrogant, stubborn and egotistical to learn from his mistakes.


I like him but if he continues to play Steven Gerrard as a DM he won't have a job for much longer.


He doesn't know whether he is coming or going yakka and is making things worse for himself.
The whole spiel he gave when he did move gerrard forward and now he puts him back in there  :laugh:
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:30 pm

7_Kewell » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:53 pm wrote:I'm really starting to think that there's something wrong. I don't know what, but something's going on behind the scenes and it's wrecking our season. Has BR fallen out with some of the players? Has there been a row between the new lads and the squad from last season?

I don't know what it is, but there's something not right here and the Mig mess is latest instalment.



With our results and livelihoods on the line you can bet your bottom dollar that some harsh words will have been spoken behind the scene's, and not just by the manager either.
I noticed that Lovren was in one of the papers over the weekend complaining that our defence is being unfairly criticised, he reckons that for most of the season they've had no protection from our midfield and given that he is meant to be an outspoken character i think we can probably assume that he hasn't said anything in print that he hasn't already said within the confines of the dressing room.
There's probably been all sorts going on at Melwood, players arguing like f**k and squaring up to each other and everything, that's what usually happens when the shyte hits the fan and the blame game starts at a football club.
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Postby 7_Kewell » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:00 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:30 pm wrote:
7_Kewell » Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:53 pm wrote:I'm really starting to think that there's something wrong. I don't know what, but something's going on behind the scenes and it's wrecking our season. Has BR fallen out with some of the players? Has there been a row between the new lads and the squad from last season?

I don't know what it is, but there's something not right here and the Mig mess is latest instalment.



With our results and livelihoods on the line you can bet your bottom dollar that some harsh words will have been spoken behind the scene's, and not just by the manager either.
I noticed that Lovren was in one of the papers over the weekend complaining that our defence is being unfairly criticised, he reckons that for most of the season they've had no protection from our midfield and given that he is meant to be an outspoken character i think we can probably assume that he hasn't said anything in print that he hasn't already said within the confines of the dressing room.
There's probably been all sorts going on at Melwood, players arguing like f**k and squaring up to each other and everything, that's what usually happens when the shyte hits the fan and the blame game starts at a football club.

He's got a point...but then so do the rest of the team when they say our defence is awful.

BR's biggest fault is not using his new signings. I mean, why not throw Can and Markovic into the team? Surely they can't do much worse that the ***** we've seen so far?
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Postby Octsky » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:13 am

why was lucas, our best dm dropped againsst manu?
and allen, a light weight player played instead?
joe allen, i dont know if he is a dm or a cm or an am,
he cant pass, he cant defend and he cant shoot.

to sell a loyal servant in agger for 3m in exchange for lovren at 20m seems
like a sh..itty business.
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Postby eds » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:30 am

Octsky » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:13 am wrote:why was lucas, our best dm dropped againsst manu?
and allen, a light weight player played instead?
joe allen, i dont know if he is a dm or a cm or an am,
he cant pass, he cant defend and he cant shoot.

to sell a loyal servant in agger for 3m in exchange for lovren at 20m seems
like a sh..itty business.


You could ask the same question on Henderson, no one knows if he is a DM, CM or AM.  :no
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Postby Dundreamin is back » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:04 am

My thoughts are that this is a complete balls up from the whole squad,manager, transfer committee (WTF is that away) and FSG. Rodgers was appointed because of his philosophy. He's had FSG well f.ucked over. He's got no European experience and 98% of his signings have been woeful and that's not just last summer it's since he has been manager. I am frustrated,angry and sadded by the whole mess. It's not that this is a one off either. Since Souness was appointed manager wise it's always ended up in tears,although Houllier reign was cut short because of his heart scare. ( Which when you have a major trauma you shift your priorities as I have found out with my own health) Then IMHO the best manger we had since 1991 Rafa was totally f.ucked over by the 2 cowboys ( Is Hicks not dead yet? If that's a no then there's no justice in the world) If Rodgers has any honour then he should fall on is sword, as by dropping Migolet "Indefinitely" he has admitted he's s.*i*e which he is. But who signed him? People who are saying BR should be given time are either, Thick as s.hit. Seriously deluded, or are /have been/ or should be sectioned. Because this is going to get worse starting on Wednesday in Bournemouth, next Sunday another tonking by the gooners then 5th January in Wimbledon. I am losing faith with all this now
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Postby jacdaniel » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:21 am

We should give him time.  Plenty called for Rafa's head and would now take him back in a heartbeat. 
Lets at least wait to get Sturridge back fit and sign another striker in Jan and see if we can fire our way up the table.

We played quite well at times yesterday.  Had we taken our chances at key times in the game we'd have won. 
Daniel Sturridge would have scored those chances that fell to Raheem.
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Postby Reg » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:47 am

The manager's come in for a lot of criticism for the players bought, selection and tactics which is just about every aspect of his job. Some background factors have affected the success of those decisions, losing Suarez, the owners strategy and injuries however rightly or wrongly he's judged by the results on the pitch.

Putting all that to one side, the single aspect that gets me the the heavy, heavy disappointment of not building on the progress of last year. We played above our weight but players matured and the likes of Henderson, Sterling, Coutinho etc.. and should have accepted the challenge when Suarez left. Instead these lads have regressed into confidence lacking players unable to dominate their positions. We don't have a strike force, our midfield is weak and our defence a joke.

How did this happen and why didn't the manager stop the rot? We spent 100 million on various players none of whom have made an impact. I don't see any return on investment.

So I'm just disappointed at the wasted opportunity to consolidate last year's gains. All those players brought in for zero gain. That's what disappoints.

He needs time I agree Jac but deep down the damage is done.
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Postby Kash_Mountain » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:49 am

jacdaniel » Dec 15th, '14, 08:21 wrote:We should give him time.  Plenty called for Rafa's head and would now take him back in a heartbeat. 
Lets at least wait to get Sturridge back fit and sign another striker in Jan and see if we can fire our way up the table.

We played quite well at times yesterday.  Had we taken our chances at key times in the game we'd have won. 
Daniel Sturridge would have scored those chances that fell to Raheem.


Unfortunately, LFC don't have the luxury of waiting for DS to get back, and, to heavily rely  on one player in this way  is not good foe LFC. What's happened to Borini and even Yetsil? I understand BR likes to keep playing his favorites, but the situation is going beyond ridiculous and Time and Space as we know it!

DS won't be back until (potentially) mid to end of January 2015, and LFC have a busy schedule coming up.

LFC don't have money, except for a GK. A GK is all I can see coming in Jan unless FSG want to take on even more debt, which in turn would  take the Club further into the cellars of FFP. It is a bad situation.  Currently, i believe it is a 'sell first, then buy' policy. The whole saga wasn't helped by the vast millions wasted by BR.
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Postby C-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:28 am

If you have the time, please read this article (taken from Anfield Index), it's a really good read...

Where There is Blame | Brendan Rodgers & FSG

Where there is blame…

You’re approached by a business that wants you to become their new manager, you’re part of a shortlist of five people and you’re probably the least experienced of the lot.

You prepare for the interview, after all this is a big opportunity, one you didn’t expect. You write up a 180 page dossier showing your visions for the job if you were to get it and show them the business plan you’d worked so hard on. The only chink in the armour is the business wants you to report to a manager above you, so you can run your ideas past them. It’s not an offensive thing to ask, after all, you are fairly inexperienced and this isn’t a role you can afford to mess up.

The interview was a success, you impress them and the 180 page report says all the right things. They want you but you need to work under a manager and for some reason you’re that arrogant/confident you reject the role if you have to work under a manager.

The company stands firm, you miss out but it makes you a better man in the long term as you now know you aren’t all that and you can’t demand such things when your CV isn’t the greatest out there.

That’s how it should have gone. However, the day FSG changed their visions to align and cater for Rodgers was the day a precedent was set, and a monster was created.

Brendan Rodgers’ ego is currently the omnipotent power at Liverpool Football Club.

By immediately giving in to his first demand of not wanting to work under a Director of Football, the owners gave Rodgers the power and showed their naivety. It was surely a surprise to Rodgers, who replaced the outgoing Kenny Dalglish after FSG got rid of him and showed no sentiment in ruthless fashion. These cut throat businessmen bowing to your first demand must have been satisfying for the already confident Northern Irishman.

As a business, unless it’s someone or something special, you shouldn’t change your business plan/idea. It’s bad for business. Would anybody consider Brendan Rodgers special enough, at the time he was appointed, to justify such a dramatic change?

A good start for Rodgers in the Liverpool role, not results wise, but for his ego. How else do you massage your ego than to have a club legend, Steven Gerrard, on your side. To do this though you need to give him something, which Rodgers did. He made Gerrard a key component in the squad and this lead to certain players being moved around, such as Nuri Sahin playing in an unnatural position. Sahin, who at the time was such a coup for Liverpool when rivals Arsenal were also after his signature, had to play further forward when it’s obvious for all to see he’s better deeper. This lead to his loan move being terminated early, such a waste of what could have been a key squad player in our first season under Rodgers.

Rodgers’ treatment of players that he just doesn’t fancy also leaves a lot to be desired. Firstly, Henderson, who he tried to flog for next to nothing as part of a deal to bring Clint Dempsey to Anfield. Fast forward a few years and Henderson is Vice Captain and Dempsey is plying his trade in the MLS. This goes to show Rodgers’ doesn’t always know best.

Next up, Andy Carroll. Yes he’s injury prone, yes he cost the club a fortune and yes he isn’t prolific. Rodgers said he wouldn’t fit his system yet you’d argue we now have two players of similar style playing for us. How exactly did Rodgers persuade the owners to loan out the club’s record transfer buy? Was this ‘you appointed me, so you back me now’ type moves?
The following season introduced us to a new concept: The committee buys vs Rodgers’.

I for one am now fed up with this debate. It’s an issue the club should have put a stop to before it even started, but they allowed it to fester when allowing Brendan to not work under a DoF. You need a club pulling in one direction and this debate causes divide. The fact it crosses fans’ minds that Rodgers doesn’t play certain players because they weren’t his signings shouldn’t ever be part of the thought process of a fan. The fact some people go “Oh well Brendan made it clear he didnt want a DoF, he’s partaking in boardroom politics by not playing them” is laughable. Yet scary as it *could* be true.

“This player is Sh*t because Rodgers doesn’t play him”

“No, Rodgers doesn’t play him because he’s a committee buy”

People use whatever narrative they feel like to suit their argument at the time. We must be one of the few clubs who have a manager and a transfer committee in place that clash so much. Simon Mignolet was a compromise between Rodgers and the committee. Mario Balotelli was a compromise. That’s the best part of £26million spent on compromises. How can you run a business when you’re wasting money like that?

Liverpool are in a situation where the owners don’t trust Rodgers in the transfer market, and rightly so may I add, yet still try to work with him. So this begs the question once again, why appoint him to begin with?

The summer of 2013 was filled with signings; Mignolet, Aspas, Alberto and Sakho to name but a few. £45million spent and in the line up today, against Utd, £0 worth of them started. Now that’s what you call a waste of money. People will say only Mignolet and Sakho could have started, yet Sakho wasn’t in the squad despite being fully fit.
‘Ego is the only requirement to destroy any relationship’

The Rodgers side, inspired by Suarez, gave Liverpool fans a season to remember in 2013/14. Brendan Rodgers had built a relationship with the fans, he ‘made us dream’ and has us ‘on our way to glory’.

Then the ego, fed by the success of that season, the new contract and the apparent shift of power when signing players we’ve seen the Reds manager make some baffling acquisitions in the summer.

It’s true, we as fans don’t know the ins and outs of players but it’s safe to say Lallana, Lovren and Lambert were Brendan Rodgers-inspired signings, flexing the new muscles he was awarded in that new contract. Those three came in for an outlay of close to £50 million.  You can’t help but feel there were better value for money options available in Europe but Rodgers had ‘earned this’ with his performance the season prior. He got us into the Champions League so had every right to spend the money on who he saw fit, right?

Despite so much money being spent, Liverpool failed to address their biggest weakness. The defensive midfielder. I’ve been told on many occasions that “Brendan Rodgers hasn’t and never will use a defensive midfielder.” It’s this arrogance that led to Liverpool paying £25 million for a defender that’s worse than what we had already in the hope of shoring up the backline instead of actually investing in a player that would’ve corrected the actual problem. The defence gets no protection.

Next up, failure to invest in a striker of similar skill to Daniel Sturridge. One who can lead the line on his own, play in a partnership or even play as an inside forward. There are ones out there, for example Alexandre Lacazette. The Frenchman is currently in a rich vein of form scoring 15 Ligue 1 goals already. Jason Roberts did a recent article on Lacazette here.

Instead, we brought in a ‘calculated risk’ in Mario Balotelli and Rodgers persisted on using him in a formation that got nothing out of him.

The formation, favoured by Rodgers throughout his career is one that doesn’t suit the current Liverpool squad. A squad full of pace and direct players being asked to play patiently, ‘Tika Taka’. A term the English media jumped on as a positive style of play when actually Pep Guardiola says:

    “I loathe all that passing for the sake of it, all that tiki-taka. It’s so much rubbish and has no purpose. You have to pass the ball with a clear intention, with the aim of making it into the opposition’s goal. It’s not about passing for the sake of it. Don’t believe what people say. Barca didn’t do tiki-taka! It’s completely made up! Don’t believe a word of it! In all team sports, the secret is to overload one side of the pitch so that the opponent must tilt its own defence to cope. You overload on one side and draw them in so that they leave the other side weak. And when we’ve done all that, we attack and score from the other side. That’s why you have to pass the ball, but only if you’re doing it with a clear intention. It’s only to overload the opponent, to draw them in and then to hit them with the sucker punch. That’s what our game needs to be. Nothing to do with tiki-taka.”

    Extract from Pep Confidential by Martin Perarnau

That’s exactly how Liverpool are playing this season. Without a purpose. Brought on by the fact the majority of the players are wasted in a 4231 yet Brendan hasn’t been quick to change it, but instead persisted with using it regardless of the poor performances and results.

During the defeat to Manchester United the team created chances at will, 19 shots, 9 on target, yet if you look at those chances properly you have to ask. Did De Gea have to make any extraorindary saves? In my opinion, all but the Balotelli one he tipped to the bar, he should be saving them all. It’s poor finishing on our part.

Sterling as a lone striker. Yes chances were created but not taken. You can blame the players for not being prolific enough but it’s Brendan that selected that side and saw fit to play Sterling as the striker despite his finishing not being good enough. It is Brendan that leaves Borini out of the squads for no other reason other than he doesn’t rate him. It takes a special kind of ego to drop a striker from two must win games. He may not be world class but he’s a striker. You can’t help but feel had he been in a position for one of those Sterling chances it may have been a goal, it’s clear to see the Italian has a lot of self belief.

Again, It’s Brendan’s decision to play Johnson, who isn’t even the club’s best right-back, at RCB despite Kolo Toure and Sakho both being fit. It’s Rodgers that chooses not to pick Emre Can, despite his physical presence, distribution of the ball and all around positional awareness being superior to many, if not all, of our other midfielders.

Thomas Edison once said “I haven’t failed, I‘ve just found 1000 ways that don’t work”, that was Rodgers last season before he finally stumbled upon a formula that worked. The same formula he hasn’t felt confident enough to try this season. This season he’s failed.

Can FSG really sack Rodgers though? They hired him and to some extent haven’t fully backed him. Will they do the same with any future successors? Rodgers may have taken advantage in some situations but as stated earlier, the precedent was set when FSG backed down to him.

Like a spoilt child, how can you punish them when you’re guilty of making them like how they are. I’m certainly not saying this is down to FSG but their actions at the start of all this certainly influenced how Brendan Rodgers has acted and increased his sense of self entitlement.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:58 am

Great post CR.
The next two games will determine the future
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:20 pm

Over on RAWK they are saying that James Pearce of the Echo has done an interview where he states that this transfer committee of ours is far more powerful than people think.
Apparently practically every decision is voted on by the committee and the manager hasn't got a veto, so in other words if he is out voted he can't do anything about it. Apparently Rodgers wanted to sign the likes of Costa, Eriksson, Vorm and Bony but was out voted and players have come in against his will too.
Apparently when FSG were looking for a manager practically everyone they interviewed (including Brendan) said they wouldn't work under a DoF so they created the idea of a transfer committee to still wield their influence. By all accounts there's a fella who used to work for FSG and he's saying that Brendan has fallen out with some of the members of the committee and the relationship between the manager and the committee has become 'unsavoury'.
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Postby eds » Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:22 am

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:20 pm wrote:Over on RAWK they are saying that James Pearce of the Echo has done an interview where he states that this transfer committee of ours is far more powerful than people think.
Apparently practically every decision is voted on by the committee and the manager hasn't got a veto, so in other words if he is out voted he can't do anything about it. Apparently Rodgers wanted to sign the likes of Costa, Eriksson, Vorm and Bony but was out voted and players have come in against his will too.
Apparently when FSG were looking for a manager practically everyone they interviewed (including Brendan) said they wouldn't work under a DoF so they created the idea of a transfer committee to still wield their influence. By all accounts there's a fella who used to work for FSG and he's saying that Brendan has fallen out with some of the members of the committee and the relationship between the manager and the committee has become 'unsavoury'.


Doesn't surprise me really.

Both parties are as clueless as one another and is the reason why we are in the mess we are in.
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Postby Doeboy » Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:03 am

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:20 pm wrote:Over on RAWK they are saying that James Pearce of the Echo has done an interview where he states that this transfer committee of ours is far more powerful than people think.
Apparently practically every decision is voted on by the committee and the manager hasn't got a veto, so in other words if he is out voted he can't do anything about it. Apparently Rodgers wanted to sign the likes of Costa, Eriksson, Vorm and Bony but was out voted and players have come in against his will too.
Apparently when FSG were looking for a manager practically everyone they interviewed (including Brendan) said they wouldn't work under a DoF so they created the idea of a transfer committee to still wield their influence. By all accounts there's a fella who used to work for FSG and he's saying that Brendan has fallen out with some of the members of the committee and the relationship between the manager and the committee has become 'unsavoury'.


Always had the feeling FSG are in this for a quick buck and making profit from player trading is one aspect of it. Their purchase of the club seemed opportunistic and was something that obviously needed to happen due to the mess those two clowns had left us in, but still oppurtunistic in nature.

If BR is having players dumped on him in favour of players he actually wants then that this is a big problem. I thought we bid for Costa last summer but he wasn't interested in the move. In hindsight, Eriksen is looking like the one that got away especially for the £11m or so spurs paid for him
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