Liverpool FC Forum

[red till i die!!]

He hasn't improved anyone or developed any of the youth? Is Sterling a mirage? Look I know he has made mistakes but stick to the facts. Flano was excellent before the injury. He has improved Hendo. Done wonders with Sturridge and of course he must get credit for the way Suarez became unplayable (some credit not all).
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do you really think he has turned sterling into a much better player ? he after all was one of the hottest properties long before rodgers came near us. In what area is it that you think he has improved him ? IMO he was always going to be a top player.

Flanagan got his debut back in 2011 and was excellent then    a real prospect for the future who has barely played under brendan. granted injuries have hampered him in the last year but he was every bit the talent when kenny brought him through. Honestly i think you are insulting the lad if you are claiming he is a better player because of brendan seeing as he was never a regular under him.

Henderson improved, you really think that ?

sturridge again was another top top prospect who had proven his potential and that he could hit the net, he showed this as a young lad in blue and again when he was on loan at bolton years ago. his injuries are what kept him back and possibly the only reason we got him in the first place. He has improved him alright hasn't he, especially with the tailored training regime he has him on.

Suarez is the best player to walk through that door in years, he played with such high intensity at whatever club he was at. when he came here that intensity was clearly in his game and was running amok(the united game in ot) but he couldn't hit a barn door but still had more chances than any other player in the league. yes his goals improved but maybe that was down to him becoming more accustomed to the league and his new home.  suarez was responsible for those players upping their games because he took some serious pressure and attention off them.

suarez is gone and those players performances have nosedived, If brendan was really responsible for improving them last season then why have they looked completely lost this one, when by your logic they should have improved again seeing as he had more time to do so.

even if you recognise this or not that is a miniscule amount of players he has had at his disposal in the time he has been here. Your post would hold much better weight if you could actually list a failed player under a previous manager and turned him into someone who's a nailed on starter ever week but you can't. He is struggling to even get anything out of the players he has bought. If thiago llori comes back in next season and is a superstar I'm fairly sure you would credit brendan with that also and not the last 2 managers he palmed him off on.

I stand by my comments, he has improved feck all.

[Boocity]

He hasn't improved anyone or developed any of the youth? Is Sterling a mirage? Look I know he has made mistakes but stick to the facts. Flano was excellent before the injury. He has improved Hendo. Done wonders with Sturridge and of course he must get credit for the way Suarez became unplayable (some credit not all).
.

do you really think he has turned sterling into a much better player ? he after all was one of the hottest properties long before rodgers came near us. In what area is it that you think he has improved him ? IMO he was always going to be a top player.

Flanagan got his debut back in 2011 and was excellent then    a real prospect for the future who has barely played under brendan. granted injuries have hampered him in the last year but he was every bit the talent when kenny brought him through. Honestly i think you are insulting the lad if you are claiming he is a better player because of brendan seeing as he was never a regular under him.

Henderson improved, you really think that ?

sturridge again was another top top prospect who had proven his potential and that he could hit the net, he showed this as a young lad in blue and again when he was on loan at bolton years ago. his injuries are what kept him back and possibly the only reason we got him in the first place. He has improved him alright hasn't he, especially with the tailored training regime he has him on.

Suarez is the best player to walk through that door in years, he played with such high intensity at whatever club he was at. when he came here that intensity was clearly in his game and was running amok(the united game in ot) but he couldn't hit a barn door but still had more chances than any other player in the league. yes his goals improved but maybe that was down to him becoming more accustomed to the league and his new home.  suarez was responsible for those players upping their games because he took some serious pressure and attention off them.

suarez is gone and those players performances have nosedived, If brendan was really responsible for improving them last season then why have they looked completely lost this one, when by your logic they should have improved again seeing as he had more time to do so.

even if you recognise this or not that is a miniscule amount of players he has had at his disposal in the time he has been here. Your post would hold much better weight if you could actually list a failed player under a previous manager and turned him into someone who's a nailed on starter ever week but you can't. He is struggling to even get anything out of the players he has bought. If thiago llori comes back in next season and is a superstar I'm fairly sure you would credit brendan with that also and not the last 2 managers he palmed him off on.

I stand by my comments, he has improved feck all.

Spot on 

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

As I said earlier I like Brendan but this whole affair throws up a lot of questions not least Thiago Ilorri, I think that lad will be a Rolls Royce of a defender and if Brendan has sent him straight on loan to make a political point then that's a complete joke. Especially when our defence has been p1$$ing goals.

This is what galls me the most ,when Ilori was sent on loan most fans who recognise class when they see it ,were mystified as to why he wasn't being
integrated into the team with post haste ,and yet Rodgers couldn't wait to ship him out on loan even though the lads composure on the ball and ability
were quite evident.....If as you say Yakka ,that Rodgers has used these players as pawns to deliver a point ,then he's been pandering to his own ego
whilst watching us slide down the table ..... If it is indeed true then his actions should be seen as simply beyond reproach !

Lets face facts here ,we had a manager in Benitez that understood the importance to the fans of picking teams he believed would win games ,and even
though he was dealing with fraught in house battles he still retained that close bond and affinity with Liverpool fans ,only Rafa took it all on the chin
albeit from proffering us some subtle but deft pointers towards the turmoil that ensued behind closed doors.

Like I say if there is any truth ,in these current rumours then Rodgers has acted disgracefully ,and in a manner not becoming of a Liverpool manager.

[sniffy98]

So BR gets no credit for Sterling's development whatsoever because the boy already had talent? If that is the case then why do other managers get credit, ie Wenger re: Fabregas, RVP and Henry etc. Your logic doesn't work for me mate. Of course the talent needs to be there but it has to be nurtured correctly and I think Sterling would credit a lot of his development to BR.

I stick by what I said about Henderson. He was poor the season before last but fantastictically improved last year under the tutelage of BR and if you don't want to give the manager any credit for that fair enough. If he didn't pick up that stupid suspension, we'd have won the league.

I am not saying BR hasn't made big ***** ups. He has. He has irritated the f*ck out of me at times but I just think people have short memories and are also blaming the guy for absolutely everything, fairly or unfairly.

[sniffy98]

And sorry but surely the manager and system is a factor for Suarez's unparalleled magnificence last season despite it being painted as 'he would have been as good regardless'. That is bollox, are you telling me that if he went to say the Spuds, they would have challenged for the title?

It was the manager that created the SSS which was so effective as well as exciting. It was his vision to piece it together that way, not chance ffs.

I'll happily accept that the summer activity was mainly rubbish but won't rewrite history to put down his achievements last season.

[Thommo's perm]

Ok lets break this down into bite size pieces
We have a problem with our main goalie in that he is Fu*king awful at crosses and sh'it scared to come off his line. The positives are he is among the best shot stoppers in Europe. Our second goalie is average at best, as was proved on sunday. We need a new, good, confident goalkeeper who can push mignolet into becoming better.
Our back four is weak and confused. Lovren looks like he has just learned how to play football. His positioning is terrible and his confidence is shot. Skrtel looks like he cant be arsed and is always a kick away from disaster. Johnson is finished and is more of a liability than a benefit. Moreno is young, lazy, foolish and naive. He may well become a decent player but not if he continues the way he is now. Manquillo is decent but weak. Enrique looks past it. Toure has passion and the will to succeed but is getting on and makes serious errors. Sakho may be good but we havent had a chance to see?
The midfield is very weak and sometimes looks totally clueless. Henderson flatters to deceive and still makes astounding decisions every game. He is a decent player but will never become world class. Lucas is Lucas. Allen tries his best but is as weak as a kitten and is always coming second in any battles. Lallana is good but always seems to be the fall guy when a sub is used. Coutinho has glimpses of potential but cant put a decent run of solid performances together. Can looks good but like Sakho we cant make a judgement due to his lack of minutes.
Forwards are not scoring. Lambert is finally showing a bit of form but is not an out and out striker. Sterling has the makings of a worldy but is turning into a wasteful and pointless player who looks like hes got other things on his mind. Balotelli will never change. He was the biggest gamble for relative buttons but has not had any impact at all, unless, if we are to believe rumours, a negative one? Borini has no place in the squad as far as the manager is concerned. Markovitch has just started to come out of his shell but still hasnt made his mark. And Gerrard is so out of sorts its painful to watch. Is it the position hes played in? Is it the players hes surrounded by? Is it the manager and coaching staff not up to the job. Is he having problems off the pitch? Is he still thinking about the slip against chelsea and how close he was to winning the league? Is it because, deep down he knows he will never win the Prem?
All these problems are there for anyone to see and the question is, is the manager good enough to sort these things out? I believe in learning from your mistakes, but Im not sure Rodgers agrees with me? I am convinced that you need to sort the defence out before you can have any hope of winning anything? Maybe he doesnt agree with that either? From where Im standing, the players are obviously off message and if the rumours are to be believed then we have a disunited, disgruntled and unsettled squad who are pointing the finger at each other rather than taking personal responsibility. We also have a not too trustworthy CEO (or whatever his title is) in Ian Ayre. Im not convinced by him at all and feel that he has shmoozed the yanks into making him boss, due to their ignorance of england and LFC?
If this continues we will be in Sh*t street sooner rather than later and it will be curtains for Rodgers and yet another new manager with his own "ethos" and coaching staff will be moving in.
It doesnt bear thinking about...

[Kash_Mountain]

As I said earlier I like Brendan but this whole affair throws up a lot of questions not least Thiago Ilorri, I think that lad will be a Rolls Royce of a defender and if Brendan has sent him straight on loan to make a political point then that's a complete joke. Especially when our defence has been p1$$ing goals.

This is what galls me the most ,when Ilori was sent on loan most fans who recognise class when they see it ,were mystified as to why he wasn't being
integrated into the team with post haste ,and yet Rodgers couldn't wait to ship him out on loan even though the lads composure on the ball and ability
were quite evident.....If as you say Yakka ,that Rodgers has used these players as pawns to deliver a point ,then he's been pandering to his own ego
whilst watching us slide down the table ..... If it is indeed true then his actions should be seen as simply beyond reproach !

Lets face facts here ,we had a manager in Benitez that understood the importance to the fans of picking teams he believed would win games ,and even
though he was dealing with fraught in house battles he still retained that close bond and affinity with Liverpool fans ,only Rafa took it all on the chin
albeit from proffering us some subtle but deft pointers towards the turmoil that ensued behind closed doors.

Like I say if there is any truth ,in these current rumours then Rodgers has acted disgracefully ,and in a manner not becoming of a Liverpool manager.

Agree about Rafa  having a close bond with the Fans, though I think he become to involved with the internal politics in the end. Luckily he had good coaches around him that could carry on with the training of the players.

With BR and the transfer Committee that he is very much part of, the state LFC are in currently is all down to him. He could have said or even mentioned that he didn't want to bring in so many players as it would disrupt the 'team ethos' and that he'd give the Academy players a go, the rest of the Committee would have gone with that, i'm sure of it. It would have safed LFC millions.  However, BR has more or less slammed the door shut on the Academy players, they have been well and truly shafted. It's BR that wanted to spend spend and spend more to cater for his ego. The arrogant s and stubbornness is there for all to see.  He spends big, makes more promises to the Owners, and in the end, he doesn't look like fulfilling any of them.

In the end, he has lossed the Dressing Room, everyone is blaming each other for what is going on. BR can't handle it! You'd think SG, as the Captain would step in to help  sort the craziness, but he's right in the thick of it. The Owners know what is going on, well, you'd like to think they would. It all needs to be sorted quick smart, and that means removing BR from the helm, and letting SG (who imo, has grown to big for the Club), you can see it because BR is fearful, scared of dropping him to a bit part player. LFC is not all about SG. Reckon he'll go off to the MLS.

[maguskwt]

So BR gets no credit for Sterling's development whatsoever because the boy already had talent? If that is the case then why do other managers get credit, ie Wenger re: Fabregas, RVP and Henry etc. Your logic doesn't work for me mate. Of course the talent needs to be there but it has to be nurtured correctly and I think Sterling would credit a lot of his development to BR.

I stick by what I said about Henderson. He was poor the season before last but fantastictically improved last year under the tutelage of BR and if you don't want to give the manager any credit for that fair enough. If he didn't pick up that stupid suspension, we'd have won the league.

I am not saying BR hasn't made big ***** ups. He has. He has irritated the f*ck out of me at times but I just think people have short memories and are also blaming the guy for absolutely everything, fairly or unfairly.

Finally someone who talks sense and is balanced... There's a glimmer of hope yet for this place...

[RedAnt]

I'm confused. Wasn't Sterling signed from QPR five years ago? And who signed Hendo and Suarez? Weren't all of these players playing before BR arrived? And if BR takes credit for their development surely he must also take responsibility for their huge drop in form? Unless of course it was Suarez dragging them along after all.

[Ben Patrick]

As usual when things start going wrong at football clubs fans have very short and blinkered memories.

For what it's worth I am 100% with Skippy in his assessment of the current situation.
There is no way to defend lots of things we are seeing this season and the manager is making some glaring mistakes.

However to intimate that he has not improved any player is ridiculous.
The players skippy mentioned all improved dramatically under Rodgers, that much that Flanagan almost made the world cup squad after being in our under 21's for nearly 2 seasons with no premiership offers made for him.

It baffles me why people cant be balanced.

I'd love the question to be put to Suarez, Sterling, Henderson, Sturridge and ask them whether they feel he has done anything to help them improve their games.

My guess is all of them would give him some credit.

[RedAnt]

My view is balanced. It's natural that players will either improve or decline under a manager and not only due to the manager, but due to circumstance, team-mates, coaches etc. Last season Brendan had little pressure on him and he was free to work. We saw great things under him. I've always given credit where it's due, but right now you'll have to go a long way back to see it. Back to last season in fact. BR hasn't suddenly become bad at his job. He has been crushed under the pressure and some people don't work so well under pressure. My personal belief is that he won't recover with us. He needs a fresh start to clear his head. Tunnel vision is symptomatic of pressure and i'm not sure it can be cured when in a high pressure envoirement. And it's all making him rather unlikable.
Back to the initial point though, the scouts that spotted Sterling, the people that signed him and the coaches that have raised him in the last five years might like a mention along with BR. What I mean is that of all those involved in these players development, of the players mentioned, Sterling, Suarez and Hendo, Brendan's input seems less than say Dalgish's who brought two (if I remember correctly) of them and gave them their chance. And Brendan's time with them has been very much a mixed bag.

[Ben Patrick]

My view is balanced. It's natural that players will either improve or decline under a manager and not only due to the manager, but due to circumstance, team-mates, coaches etc. Last season Brendan had little pressure on him and he was free to work. We saw great things under him. I've always given credit where it's due, but right now you'll have to go a long way back to see it. Back to last season in fact. BR hasn't suddenly become bad at his job. He has been crushed under the pressure and some people don't work so well under pressure. My personal belief is that he won't recover with us. He needs a fresh start to clear his head. Tunnel vision is symptomatic of pressure and i'm not sure it can be cured when in a high pressure envoirement. And it's all making him rather unlikable.
Back to the initial point though, the scouts that spotted Sterling, the people that signed him and the coaches that have raised him in the last five years might like a mention along with BR.

You may be right about Rodgers, things are going that badly wrong this season with little sign of improvement.
It wasnt you I was referring to though.

The poster that refused to give any credit at all for the improvement of key players last season irritated me.

I am hoping Brendan can turn it around as the changing of managers regulaly is not a good thing. But I am not blinded by loyalty and watching what is going on this season is really painful and worrying.

[RedAnt]

My view is balanced. It's natural that players will either improve or decline under a manager and not only due to the manager, but due to circumstance, team-mates, coaches etc. Last season Brendan had little pressure on him and he was free to work. We saw great things under him. I've always given credit where it's due, but right now you'll have to go a long way back to see it. Back to last season in fact. BR hasn't suddenly become bad at his job. He has been crushed under the pressure and some people don't work so well under pressure. My personal belief is that he won't recover with us. He needs a fresh start to clear his head. Tunnel vision is symptomatic of pressure and i'm not sure it can be cured when in a high pressure envoirement. And it's all making him rather unlikable.
Back to the initial point though, the scouts that spotted Sterling, the people that signed him and the coaches that have raised him in the last five years might like a mention along with BR.

You may be right about Rodgers, things are going that badly wrong this season with little sign of improvement.
It wasnt you I was referring to though.

The poster that refused to give any credit at all for the improvement of key players last season irritated me.

I am hoping Brendan can turn it around as the changing of managers regulaly is not a good thing. But I am not blinded by loyalty and watching what is going on this season is really painful and worrying.

I agree on the time thing. I'd hate to change managers too much. I'm a bit of a traditionalist myself. But then the current situation feels tainted, too many things out of place. I simply can't see any hope for BR. And I can't say I hope I'm wrong either.

[jacdaniel]

What worries me is that i have no confidence FSG will be able to get things right if they do make changes. 

First it was Comolli and Kenny.
They fired just about everybody at the club around that time. 

Then they apparently wanted a DOF. 
Then they hired Rodgers but there was no DOF. 

Now it looks like after 4 years of ownership, they might have to tear it all up and start from scratch again. 

We can criticize the manager and committee all we want but what evidence is there to suggest FSG will make things right? 
What use are sponsorship deals / bigger stadium if we keep wasting money? 

End of the day, it doesn't matter who manages us on the field as long as we get so much wrong off of it.  Thats my biggest worry anyways!

[Homebooby]

I am trying not to add too much fuel to the ongoing discussion as it's pretty painful reading at the moment. The way that a lot of people are having a go at the club at the moment, it feels like the G&H days all over. I can't/refuse to believe things are as dire as they were then…..we need to pull together people.

A friend of mine who's a German said rather chillingly when referring to organization politics 'It's very easy to unite people under a common enemy', imagine that in a german accent and you'll find it more scary..

Scary, but insightful

Back in the G&H days, there was a common enemy and we were all united in the struggle against them. In this situation it simply isn't the case as is displayed by the huge number of scapegoats being called out all over this board.

Is it fair to pin all the responsibilities on the manager here just because he's paid handsomely for his job? Personally I don't think so. I think the structure is clearly not right and that needs to be addressed.

Should Rogers be blamed for perhaps leaking some things to the media to change the perception of his tenure which is what some seem to be implying? Isn't that something that Rafa was applauded for during the G&H era, especially at the end? Isn't that what defined Rafa as passionate about the club and fighting for his position? Arguably the same could be placed with Brendan as well.

I can't excuse his team choices, substitutions, tactics etc etc, that does lie with him, but he wouldn't be the first manager leaned on to play a certain way, or with certain people in certain positions and there's more than enough not going well to at least open the possibility that he's influenced for people on high. I might be clutching at straws here, but if we''re accusing the infra of having no clue about football, could that go some way to explaining some of the baffling things that have happened, especially this season. Perhaps Mignolet being dropped wasn't his call….perhaps it was related to an internal argument about needing to bring someone else in in Jan that currently isn't being supported and Brendan needs to show he literally doesn't have the cover that he needs. I still can't believe that Pepe was allowed to leave by the manager due to his own determination that he was too expensive. Anyone who's managed any form of team knows you'll keep as many quality resources until your challenged to reduce costs. Maybe he was given no option, told him had a long term backup and to use him….again we don't know, but it would make a lot more sense than saying he himself has lost it to me

I could make cases across the team in the same way that all of the individual threads that are live across the board make cases against the various people in question.

I supported Rafa to the end, making a lot of similar comments that I thought he was doing a lot in the background that we'd never see and that turned out to be true in many cases….many would have him back here now as well. I'd argue personally that the football under Brendan is way more in line with the Liverpool I fell in love with and it's the first time that I can say that in many many years. Rafa did well for us, but I hated the boring side to side, back to the keeper football, not least the score first and then sit back and defend for 80 mins under pressure approach that he had. We did lose against Man U, but we did show signs of life and some semblance of what we were last season as well when we were all in love with everyone. We have to credit Brendan with that as well. Placing it all to Suarez is cheap and easy, except when it's noted that he was an above standard player who left a gaping hole in the team. Were it not for Brendan, he wouldn't have been there to see us almost win our first premiership title since its' inception…so credit where credit is due.

As we can't align under one common enemy, we should in my opinion unite under the man in charge and show our support for him. That IS the Liverpool way and if we don't, we're on a fast path to a Newcastle conveyor belt. We have more stability than we think we have…don't misinterpret the situation.

Brendan loves the club, loves our history and honors the legends at the club….I don't believe that is just for show. There's no guarantee that we'll find that in anyone else. Some argue that it might well be the biggest job he'll ever get….that has any many pros to it as it does cons.

I'd like to see him given a clear 18 months with no shackles…choose the players, do what you think is right and run the club. Judge him then…not now.

Last thing, don't forget that we're about to lose our last link to the long line of tradition that's run through the team (Gerrard), we need someone who gets it to guide us over that cliff.

Some good points there. But you say to unite under the man in charge yet your post is filled with questions as to who that man is. For myself I don't generally look so deep as the politics behind the team. I look just at the signings, line-ups, tactics, press handling, man-managing, that sort of thing and I find it impossible at the moment to see any positives in BR's level of management on these points. But if he's not in charge of any of these things, what's he there for? Is FSG afraid to appoint a man who wants the standard control of the club he manages?

I think you're right to some extent. I was trying (however clumsily) to highlight that it's difficult to pinpoint the cause which makes your conclusion that I'm questioning who to stand behind valid to a point. I think more what I was saying that in light of there being no smoking gun, we should rally behind the boss

To your last question, I tend to agree with the general feeling tha FSG lack(ed) a feeling for how integral a manager is in football compared to baseball. I am no baseball expert but would consider it far less a team sport than soccer and I think this is where the 'stats only' approach falls over. Soccer is not about a team of individuals whereas I think baseball is a lot more about that, certainly in a batsman perspective. If all we did was take penalties, the stats would be far more useful.

Why do I say the above and how does it answer your question I hear you ask . I am not sure if they are afraid to appoint someone who wants standard control, but I don't think they understood the reason why the top managers either did or would have insisted on it . This was a chance of a lifetime for BR and I am sure he bent over backwards to get himself in the job. Is that his fault?? We've all done it I am sure and I don't blame him for it....does it mean that he really agreed or agrees with it....I don't know.

Bottom line, we don't know who we'll get if we change managers at the moment. I am not convinced that anyone we're linked with at the moment is a grade or 2 up to be honest. Hence my sentiment to get right behind him as we're also to blame for the pressure being added to the squad that he has to handle