Liverpool FC Forum

by **Greavesie** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:30 am

he's really p!ssing me off, at first i could see light at the end of the tunnel. Now I don't think I can take much more of Rafa, he's just not good for the club

by **lakes10** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:33 am

BBC say Torres has not spoken about it yet.

by **parchpea** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:36 am

Benitez thought Torres was looking tired but clearly he didnt feel it. Even if he was looking a bit jaded you still keep that lad on when you desperately need to win the game.Its a poor decision end of story.

by **shabelle50** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:58 am

Benitez gave up on fourth some time ago. After the Wigan game when he said "It doesn't matter what people think about what I said before". The team is functionless and without direction.

by **Greavesie** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:00 pm

shabelle50 wrote:Benitez gave up on fourth some time ago. After the Wigan game when he said "It doesn't matter what people think about what I said before". The team is functionless and without direction.

and that's Rafa's fault

In all honesty though we need investment in the squad, not just a new manager - I dont think that alone would get us back into the top four

by **damjan193** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:21 pm

Greavesie wrote:
shabelle50 wrote:Benitez gave up on fourth some time ago. After the Wigan game when he said "It doesn't matter what people think about what I said before". The team is functionless and without direction.

and that's Rafa's fault

In all honesty though we need investment in the squad, not just a new manager - I dont think that alone would get us back into the top four

Man, we have exelent players, but there is no one to play the right formation and lineup.The lineup and formation that we use now clearly doesnt work, but since we have a stubborn manager, bad resoults will countineu.For example in the team we have players like Lucas who make like fecking 3 passes in the whole game and only threaten on OUR goal.But fine, he doesnt want to play Aquilani insted, but he could change the formation and play neither of them.Since he wants Babel, he can play him in the attack, as a striker or a second striker, or the wing is fine as well.Benny you can play everywhere in the midfield, and Gerrard as well.He can even play with 2 or even 3 strikers.I mean any change would be better since clarly this doesnt work.I am not saying that we need some minior changes in our club, but for feck sake we have a team that can do better than fecking 6th place!

by **Penguins** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:32 pm

Greavesie wrote:
shabelle50 wrote:Benitez gave up on fourth some time ago. After the Wigan game when he said "It doesn't matter what people think about what I said before". The team is functionless and without direction.

and that's Rafa's fault

In all honesty though we need investment in the squad, not just a new manager - I dont think that alone would get us back into the top four

Thank you. Another person that realises that.

Rafa has had around 12-15 million a season on average to spend before sales. That in my book is not a lot and the club would make big money if all players he bought would be sold. That means he has increased the value of the squad.

Yes, Aqualiani was a mistake, but I don't know if it was solely up to Rafa or if he got bad advice.
But 0 spend that last couple of years vs teams chansing us like City who has spend twice what Rafa has spent during his whole tenure, in those 2 years just spells doom no matter who manage.
The Keane money and Alonso money just went into thin air and the Aquilani transfer will probably eat into the summer transfer budget since we had no money last summer....

Yes, Rafa plays boring negative and seems to learn very slowly from mistakes but this team needs investment!
Torres will be injured a couple of months every season, that seems to be the norm since he is always playing both for club and country. And a new manager will not change the fact that we have Ngog as the replacement and a new manager will not help Ngog put the ball into the net.

by **Scottbot** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:44 pm

EmeraldRed10 wrote:It's also interesting how not a single one of you is yet to name a viable suitor that is up to the task of running this rat infested ship; one that will require little to no funds to land the title, or even to usurp the current top four, not to mention the likes of City who will be intent on spending at least another 100 million come the summer.

Emerald it's just as interesting to me how not one of you (hate to use pro/anti terminology) seems to EVER be willing to acknowledge any of the mistakes (see below) Rafa has made over the course of this season. It's like you (and a few others) are happy to gloss over them NO MATTER WHAT. Yesterday's substitution of Torres is a prime example. Depsite the exasperation on the faces of our two best players, despite the fact we drew a game we desperately needed to win and despite the fact it was Torres's replacement (Ngog) who missed three golden chances, I still have to read how 'we played much better once the sub was made', and 'Torres body language was all wrong from the start'.

Forget the owners and the money and the other stuff you would normally shift the debate towards for a moment. I'm not belittling them but I'd love it if you (and Benny, Lando, Kazza + anyone else who still feels Rafa is the man for the job) would please address the following areas in debate. To be honest I think the failure to even acknowledge Rafa's failings in terms of selection of personnel (based on what he has), tactics on match days, substitutions and perhaps most of all, our depressing style of football this season by some of the posters on this board is as much to blame for the arguments that go on as anything else you could point your finger at.

1/ Rafa's substitutions. Always so late in the game, often he has failed to use them all in matches this season despite the fact we have desperately needed to win them. How many times has he brought on a skill player with 6-7 minutes left in a game we need to win? I mean what's the point? It's nonsensical at times.

2/ Sticking with players who are so clearly struggling for form. Usual suspects Lucas, Insua and Kuyt spring to mind but Ngog played a long stretch this season as an impotent replacement for Torres while Babel sat on the bench chewing his finger nails.

3/ A complete reluctance to try something different. We've plodded on ALL SEASON with the same ideas. The two defensive midfielders, playing Gerrard in the hole despite the fact it only seems to work for him there when TORRES IS PLAYING AHEAD OF HIM. Playing one up front 95% of the time when we are struggling to score goals, unwilling to give a youngster like Pachecho a game when all else seems to be failing.

4/ Injuries - This one does my head in the most. Please comment on the injury problems suffered by our rivals this season. The mancs played a Champions League game earlier this season with no centre-halves (they won the game 3-0), they have lost Vidic and Ferdinand for much pretty much a whole season between them, Hargreaves hasn't played, Rafael has struggled and Owen is lost for the season + Van De Sar has missed chunks. Arsenal have just lost Gallas and Fabregas (who has been in and out all year), Van Persie has missed most of the year, Eduardo has been out, Rosicky has missed time, same goes Almunia and there only fit forward for a few weeks was Arshavin, they have been so desperate Sol Campbell has been playing centre-half! Chelsea have lost Essien for the season, had the African Nations Cup to contend with, Carvallho has missed time, Ashley Cole is out and Joe Cole hasn't been on it all year. TELL ME OUR SITUATION HAS BEEN ANY WORSE THAN ANYBODY ELSE'S. IT HASN'T.

5/ Last point. Aquilani. Need I say anymore.

by **roberto green** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:51 pm

Penguins wrote:a new manager will not change the fact that we have Ngog as the replacement and a new manager will not help Nggog put the ball into the net.

Also a new manager would never play Ngog because it is obvious to everyone apart from Benitez that Ngog is not good enough and a new manager would look for cover because they would realise that we need to strengthen up front and not let his pig headiness put the team in jeopardy.

Simples

:;):

by **tonyeh** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:51 pm

stmichael wrote:
tonyeh wrote:We cannot blame the owners for decisions like the one we witnessed out there today Mick.

The owners are dicks no doubt. And no doubt the next owners will be dicks too.

But Benitez is dragging this team into mediocrity and it's decisions like today's that should have EVERY LFC fan shaking their head in disgust.

Personally I have zero faith in the owners' ability to get someone better even if it was time for a change anyway. These are the two muppets who approached Klinsmann in the past ffs.

Yep, they're also the two muppets who gave Benitez total control and 5 year contract with a ridiculous buy out clause.

Of course, they're dicks and as I said, the next owners will be dicks as well. I have no doubt. But blaming the owners (any owners) for Benitez's decisions is silly.

The owners are not the ones making the decisions that have immediate effect on the field. Benitez is...and he's making a balls of it on a regular basis.

But that move yesterday was just appaling.

The game WAS there for the taking and he takes off one of our two real match winners? Why? To "save" him for Benfica? In the hopes of maybe winning a bit of Euro metal?

He's padding his own potential European bargaining chips at the expense of the club's future.

There are some on here that are stating that we would never have gotten 4th, but I'm not so sure. It didn't look good, but certainly all bets weren't off and with a couple of teams slipping here and there recently (and the possibility of doing so in the future) the chance was there.

But, with Benitez pulling that stunt yesterday, he has confirmed for me that he doesn't give a fuck about 4th spot, the CL for Liverpool next year or if Liverpool's brightest stay next Summer.

Because, he won't be at Liverpool.

by **Penguins** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:56 pm

roberto green wrote:
Penguins wrote:a new manager will not change the fact that we have Ngog as the replacement and a new manager will not help Nggog put the ball into the net.

Also a new manager would never play Ngog because it is obvious to everyone apart from Benitez that Ngog is not good enough and a new manager would look for cover because they would realise that we need to strengthen up front and not let his pig headiness put the team in jeopardy.

Simples

And then we are back to square one.
To get better cover than Ngog you need MONEY!
Something a new manager will not have either.

Not so simple..

by **Scottbot** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:01 pm

Penguins wrote:

And then we are back to square one.
To get better cover than Ngog you need MONEY!
Something a new manager will not have either.

Not so simple..

[/quote]
Maybe Rafa could have compromised on the £20 million he spent on our new right back instead of relying on the £1 million pound Ngog as first and only back-up to our start striker? Maybe he could have given our £12 million pound Dutch forward (often quoted as being a striker by Benitez) a run in the position? Or maybe we can find a manager who can do more with less? I see the £3 million pound Bentder seems to be doing a pretty good job covering for the £2.5 million pound Van Persie at Arsenal this season.

by **roberto green** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:07 pm

Penguins wrote:
roberto green wrote:
Penguins wrote:a new manager will not change the fact that we have Ngog as the replacement and a new manager will not help Nggog put the ball into the net.

Also a new manager would never play Ngog because it is obvious to everyone apart from Benitez that Ngog is not good enough and a new manager would look for cover because they would realise that we need to strengthen up front and not let his pig headiness put the team in jeopardy.

Simples

And then we are back to square one.
To get better cover than Ngog you need MONEY!
Something a new manager will not have either.

Not so simple..

He had money though but bought a full back instead and then squandered 20m on a certain Aqualani

Obviously in Rafa's eyes this was the priority because he is a negative manager

by **Penguins** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:10 pm

Scottbot wrote:
Penguins wrote::;):

And then we are back to square one.
To get better cover than Ngog you need MONEY!
Something a new manager will not have either.

Not so simple..

Maybe Rafa could have compromised on the £20 million he spent on our new right back instead of relying on the £1 million pound Ngog as first and only back-up to our start striker? Maybe he could have given our £12 million pound Dutch forward (often quoted as being a striker by Benitez) a run in the position? Or maybe we can find a manager who can do more with less? I see the £3 million pound Bentder seems to be doing a pretty good job covering for the £2.5 million pound Van Persie at Arsenal this season.[/quote]
Johnson cost 17 million and even less from the pockets of the club since they owed money from Crouch. So in reality maybe 7 million changed hands.
And besides Johnson was bought around the 20th of June where afterwards Rafa said in an interview that there was money for a couple of more signings!

Then nothing happened at all!
My theory is that in the beginning of July Rafa found out that there would be no money at all cause of the refinancing. That he did not know when he bought Johnson!

Kuyt has been tried as a striker and was abysmal scoring 17 goals in 1 1/2 seasons including penalties. Too slow and no skill which makes him a no go as a striker.

Bentner was a long term project that was bought at a very young age and eased into the team. Same with Van Persie.

We need someone who can step up right away from day 1 and be productive.

And not everyone is Wenger ffs!

by **JC_81** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:33 pm

I've said before that the Arsenal game was my final straw as far as Benitez goes, the point where I became completely convinced that we were not going to win the league under him. In that second half the players looked devoid of belief and didn't look like they were playing for him.

To their credit the players did respond and there was a lot more passion with some of the subsequent performances, around about the time Kyrgiakos was brought in as a regular fixture for a run of games. More recently against Pompey and Sunderland we even had passion and performance.

But lack of confidence shows up more away from home when you have to fight for every scrap in this league, and our away record doesn't lie - 4 wins all season. Bir5mingham was the latest example.

Gerrard's reaction to Benitez's substitution of Torres yesterday told us all we need to know. The players don't believe in him anymore, he HAS to go.

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