Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:14 am

bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:
stmichael wrote:As far as I'm concerned, you don't just get rid of the manager who brings you closer to the title than you've been in 20 odd years because of one poor season.

This isn't the first poor season, and wont be the first time finishing outside of the top 4 (if we do in fact finish outside the top 4). And besides the second half of last season, we have played some boring football for a while now. I don't know what everyone is holding onto, he is a good manager but sometimes things just don't work out, and the only way forward is to break things off.

ok then, i'll rephrase it, if we had a new manager next season but the same owners, do you see next season being any different to this one?

I'll put the question straight back to you. If we'd had Mourinho this season, with identical owners, players and injuries, would we have more, less or the same points?

Don't go down the "but Mourinho wouldn't come" cul-de-sac either, a straight answer would be appreciated.

As for the answer to your question-most definately.

more points at a guess but we'd still be nowhere near the title, not with the injuries and bad luck we've had, not to mention the fact that in several games we've been unable to string two passes together.

by **Fauxy** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:14 am

Bringing in O'Neill would be a big fat MISTAKE

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:15 am

stmichael wrote:no in all fairness mate i'm bringing up the point about o'neill with regards to the fact that he plays almost the exact same side in every league game if all his players are fit. it's a perfect example of people (especially in the media) using certain arguments to suit their own agendas half the time.

on sky soccer saturday yesterday they were criticising o'neill for always going with his best team too much and not using the 'fringe' players enough. at the same time they slammed rafa for years for his rotation policy and not playing his best team every week. talk about hypocritical.
no in all fairness mate i'm bringing up the point about o'neill with regards to the fact that he plays almost the exact same side in every league game if all his players are fit. it's a perfect example of people (especially in the media) using certain arguments to suit their own agendas half the time.

on sky soccer saturday yesterday they were criticising o'neill for always going with his best team too much and not using the 'fringe' players enough. at the same time they slammed rafa for years for his rotation policy and not playing his best team every week. talk about hypocritical.

In our case then he would be about right. Back to basics then go from there. I dont watch sky soccer saturday, too much tripe spoken that doesnt warrant me spending money to listen to it.

by **stmichael** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:21 am

tonyeh wrote:We cannot blame the owners for decisions like the one we witnessed out there today Mick.

The owners are dicks no doubt. And no doubt the next owners will be dicks too.

But Benitez is dragging this team into mediocrity and it's decisions like today's that should have EVERY LFC fan shaking their head in disgust.

Personally I have zero faith in the owners' ability to get someone better even if it was time for a change anyway. These are the two muppets who approached Klinsmann in the past ffs.

by **shabelle50** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:34 am

Does Benitez believe in his players anymore? It's clear he hasn't done this season he rarely lets the players off the shackles in order that that they can win games. He doesn't even believe in Torres fitness anymore. Torres didn't look exhausted to me when he came off. How much further are Liverpool going to be dragged down before enough people stand up and say enough is enough?

by **Emerald Red** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:15 am

bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:
stmichael wrote:As far as I'm concerned, you don't just get rid of the manager who brings you closer to the title than you've been in 20 odd years because of one poor season.

This isn't the first poor season, and wont be the first time finishing outside of the top 4 (if we do in fact finish outside the top 4). And besides the second half of last season, we have played some boring football for a while now. I don't know what everyone is holding onto, he is a good manager but sometimes things just don't work out, and the only way forward is to break things off.

ok then, i'll rephrase it, if we had a new manager next season but the same owners, do you see next season being any different to this one?

I'll put the question straight back to you. If we'd had Mourinho this season, with identical owners, players and injuries, would we have more, less or the same points?

Don't go down the "but Mourinho wouldn't come" cul-de-sac either, a straight answer would be appreciated.

As for the answer to your question-most definately.

Why? Because you said so? You don't know these things for sure. Benitez' hands were practically tied behind his back earlier in the season with the worst injury crisis seen at this club in over 2 decades or more. You could add possibly another 9 points to our tally thus far, and that would put us in good stead for CL football. You can question other things like subs until you're blue in the face, and people have the right to, but no one can be serious in saying that Mourinho would have gotten us the title this season, because ultimately that's what it boiled down to after last season.

The injury blight isn't an excuse for any side to struggle or drop vital points. It's a fact of football. Oh, and I'm with StMich's original post. I suppose some of you may yet get your wish and we get some sub-par manager like McLiesh or O'Neil in and be settling for 5th more or less every single season with no transfere kitty, or better still, being able to attract world class scottish or Eastern European talent washed out from the dregs of the Scotish EPL because you can forget the likes of your Torres', Macherano's, Pepe Reinas, Xabo Alonso's et al. If Benitez has to wheel and deal to sign international standard talent like Maxi on a free, then who knows, maybe we'll see Heskey back here should O'Neil be our man, or perhaps a 38 year old Keven Philps lighting up the Kop every week.

It's also interesting how not a single one of you is yet to name a viable suitor that is up to the task of running this rat infested ship; one that will require little to no funds to land the title, or even to usurp the current top four, not to mention the likes of City who will be intent on spending at least another 100 million come the summer.

I believe t's not a question of if there is actually someone who could do a better job, but is there actually one out there readily available, and my guessing is no, otherwise Rafa would have already been sacked regardless of the 20 million speculative pay off, and someone else brought in. Sadly I think it's nothing to do with football, and everything to do with balancing of books. A new manager will come in and demand a restructure; more money for new players and possibly not have the negotiation skill to plug holes left in the squad (should players leave) with adequate level of player, something that Rafa has been doing for the past two seasons with a virtually zero net spend. He's had to sell to buy, and buy to sell. The owners have not put their hands in their pockets in two seasons, and that for me is a bigger sin than that of Rafa's broken promise of CL football or dodgy substitutions or tactics.

So with all that in mind, read the following line as food for thought: LIVERPOOL FC - SKINT! Now, does that even sound right for a so called European and World giant in football? I don't think so either.

by **shawnk** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:35 am

Well Red wrote:IRRELEVANT OF ANYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED OR WILL HAPPEN THIS SEASON, SACK RAFA.

NO MAN WHO SUBS OFF FERNANDO TORRES FOR A ROOKIE STRIKER IN A MUST-WIN GAME UNDERSTANDS THE IMPORTANCE OF CHAMPIONS LEAGUE PARTICILATION FOR OUR FOOTBALL CLUB AND THEREFORE SHOULD NOT BE AT THE HELM OF IT. WALK NOW.

I can only pray that Purslow had enough sense to put a clause in Rafa's new contract that states that we can sack him with minimal financial loss if he fails to deliver a top four finish. Having to pay out £20million+ to shift him and the backroom staff will cripple us financially. We'll never be able to afford a new manager of Liverpool Football Club calibre (and we haven't had one of those for a LONG time) nor any decent players.

Sorry, I have to be rude here. ARE YOU INSANE FOR THINKING OF OFFERING RAFA ANOTHER CONTRACT?!

by **shawnk** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:42 am

Benny The Noon wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Rafa out

Why ? Because his strikers and players missed glorious chances to win a game against a team which is unbeaten at home since september or becuase johnson's poor marking ?

or because he has lost many games this season, World Class striker substitution for an amateur, lousy performances or poor football results?

I can say most fans wouldn't mind if we lost due luck from a good performance but it's clearly we didn't produce one. And there are sample team selections from Rafa himself that has produced great performance (with great result) but he opted to switch back to the team that has lost quite often.... I think I'm being very repetitive and clearly it wont change your mind.

by **Owzat** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:47 am

stmichael wrote:As far as I'm concerned, you don't just get rid of the manager who brings you closer to the title than you've been in 20 odd years because of one poor season. The guy makes me want to pull my hair out at times (if I had any) but the main reason we've gone backwards is not primarily the manager and everybody knows that.

It's not a question of "one poor season" it is assessing his level and the likelihood of winning the league with him in charge. His level is like Houllier, 3rd-5th with the odd overachieving 2nd place thrown in to give us fans the impression we can win the league. The truth is the likelihood of Benitez winning the league is small, I think he summed up what a prat he is by taking Torres off with Benfica in mind when he has 'guaranteed' fourth and knowing we needed to win yesterday to have any hope of doing so.

I wish I could say it was "one poor season", it's a lot worse than that. Many are under the impression we had a great season, we did in terms of points but we scraped through the early stages of the season with narrow wins over Boro, Wigan, Citeh, the mancs, Chelsea and Pompey - a number of red cards and late goals our trademark. We had a cracking run-in, 10 wins and a draw in our last 11 league games, but that was preceded by TWO WINS in seven that cost us the title - that and ELEVEN draws overall. We mistakenly thought the team would carry on playing attacking football, but then of course it wasn't exactly typical of Rafa and quite possibly nothing to do with him or his tic-tacs.

Do you think with the defensive frailties, having only one quality striker, excess use of two DMs and our tendancy to hoof forward and miss chances aplenty that we're title contenders for next year when we can't even finish fourth this?!?!

09/10 Premiership results by league position

01-04 : P7 W1 D2 L4 (Won 14.28%)
05-10 : P10 W5 D3 L2 (Won 50.00%)
11-16 : P11 W6 D2 L3 (Won 54.55%)
17-20 : P5 W4 D0 L1 (Won 80.00%)

It isn't even like we've improved significantly over the course of the season :

Games 01-11 : P11 W6 D0 L5 F25 A16 PTS 18
Games 12-22 : P11 W5 D4 L2 F15 A10 PTS 19
Games 23-33 : P11 W5 D3 L3 F14 A7 PTS 18

What that proves to everyone but Rafa is the importance of WINS, we lost five times in the first 11 games and STILL managed to be within one point of our second and third set of 11 games. It's not just bad luck that we haven't beaten brum in the league under Rafa, or that we've lost to sides that were or are destined for relegation. Or that when we need a result Rafa comes up short. Sure we had a couple of third placed finishes and came second once, when Arsenal were in disarray and Chelsea had a poor season by their standards and we got results enough - even then we were only three points ahead of Chelsea.

Irony is Rafa may mirror Houllier's 2002/03 season worryingly closely, finishing 5th and maybe even with 10 defeats, knocked out of the CL at the group stage and going into the UEFA Cup, and maybe even winning a tin pot. Houllier got another chance, I think he was VERY LUCKY to get another season, and he showed again he wasn't good enough by finishing 4th.

by **leep33** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:02 am

The trouble is i doubt we could afford anyone decent to take over as manager, i would not want O'neil, and i doubt the Mourinho's of this world want to take over a club with no money. All this talk of investment but there seems to be zero happening.

by **jacdaniel** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:09 am

In football, there is no such thing as one bad season. This season has been SO bad that we'll have no champions league next year by the looks of it. As a result, top class players and managers won't be as interested in joining. Although our history alone is enough for most people.

Ive been a big fan of Rafa up to this year but im running out of arguements and excuses to back him. 4th place and the Europa league might change that but what are the chances?? i did take Fergie 7 seasons to win the title though...

But i think id like a more positive manager who can find a good balance between defense and attack. How i wish we could play like Barca! Mourinho wouldnt be the guy for that. and i dont want another 5 year plan.

by **lakes10** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:14 am

Emerald Red wrote:
bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:
SupitsJonF wrote:
stmichael wrote:As far as I'm concerned, you don't just get rid of the manager who brings you closer to the title than you've been in 20 odd years because of one poor season.

This isn't the first poor season, and wont be the first time finishing outside of the top 4 (if we do in fact finish outside the top 4). And besides the second half of last season, we have played some boring football for a while now. I don't know what everyone is holding onto, he is a good manager but sometimes things just don't work out, and the only way forward is to break things off.

ok then, i'll rephrase it, if we had a new manager next season but the same owners, do you see next season being any different to this one?

I'll put the question straight back to you. If we'd had Mourinho this season, with identical owners, players and injuries, would we have more, less or the same points?

Don't go down the "but Mourinho wouldn't come" cul-de-sac either, a straight answer would be appreciated.

As for the answer to your question-most definately.

Why? Because you said so? You don't know these things for sure. Benitez' hands were practically tied behind his back earlier in the season with the worst injury crisis seen at this club in over 2 decades or more. You could add possibly another 9 points to our tally thus far, and that would put us in good stead for CL football. You can question other things like subs until you're blue in the face, and people have the right to, but no one can be serious in saying that Mourinho would have gotten us the title this season, because ultimately that's what it boiled down to after last season.

The injury blight isn't an excuse for any side to struggle or drop vital points. It's a fact of football. Oh, and I'm with StMich's original post. I suppose some of you may yet get your wish and we get some sub-par manager like McLiesh or O'Neil in and be settling for 5th more or less every single season with no transfere kitty, or better still, being able to attract world class scottish or Eastern European talent washed out from the dregs of the Scotish EPL because you can forget the likes of your Torres', Macherano's, Pepe Reinas, Xabo Alonso's et al. If Benitez has to wheel and deal to sign international standard talent like Maxi on a free, then who knows, maybe we'll see Heskey back here should O'Neil be our man, or perhaps a 38 year old Keven Philps lighting up the Kop every week.

It's also interesting how not a single one of you is yet to name a viable suitor that is up to the task of running this rat infested ship; one that will require little to no funds to land the title, or even to usurp the current top four, not to mention the likes of City who will be intent on spending at least another 100 million come the summer.

I believe t's not a question of if there is actually someone who could do a better job, but is there actually one out there readily available, and my guessing is no, otherwise Rafa would have already been sacked regardless of the 20 million speculative pay off, and someone else brought in. Sadly I think it's nothing to do with football, and everything to do with balancing of books. A new manager will come in and demand a restructure; more money for new players and possibly not have the negotiation skill to plug holes left in the squad (should players leave) with adequate level of player, something that Rafa has been doing for the past two seasons with a virtually zero net spend. He's had to sell to buy, and buy to sell. The owners have not put their hands in their pockets in two seasons, and that for me is a bigger sin than that of Rafa's broken promise of CL football or dodgy substitutions or tactics.

So with all that in mind, read the following line as food for thought: LIVERPOOL FC - SKINT! Now, does that even sound right for a so called European and World giant in football? I don't think so either.

Emerald forget this year mate, but look at the money he has had to spend since he has got here and look at the player we now have in our team, even you have got to admit he has not spent well even when he had the money, dont for get that this year he spent 20mil on a sick player, that 20 mil culd and should have been spent on a fit player.

by **shabelle50** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:16 am

As far as money is concerned look at the period 04-07 when the likes of Bellamy, Morientes, Pennant, Gonzalez, Josemi, Sissoko to name a few were all signed and sold. If Benitez thinks he's been starved of funds in the last season or two maybe it's because he wasted a lot of money before the Americans took over.

As far as the talent out there I'd rather the team went out with an attacking fast flowing mentality every week home and away trying to win than the tosh we've been served up this season. I think Benitez was virtually laughing at the club and it's fans in the post match interview yesterday when he said "we've drawn one of the last 6 maybe we will win the last 5".

I think the man will walk after the Hull game or the Europa final if we get there and blame it all on the Americans.

As for the future I'd be happy with a Deschamps, Van Gaal or Rijkaard rather than a Mourinho or Hiddink. McLeish is unproven at a top english club and O'Neil's tactics are too direct.

by **parchpea** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:19 am

Benitez has one eye on his next job now and we will go all out to win that Europa make no mistake about it. Torres wont be benched with half hour left in that one you can bet on that.

by **lakes10** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:24 am

Torres " The manager saw something I did not feel" (Talksports)

now is he backing Rafa there? bit hard to work that one out as it can be taken both ways.

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