Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:20 pm

By David Maddock

Published 12:02 23/03/10

For perhaps the past 12 months, Liverpool fans have been presented with the worst kind of dilemma.

They know that what they see out on the pitch simply isn’t good enough for their great, no, make that historic, club, but what they can’t quite work out, is who to blame.

There are the comedy villains, of course, the two American owners whose bickering, childish relationship lies at the heart of the own goals and gaffes that have fatally undermined their tenure.

There is the previous regime of David Moores and his Chief Executive Rick Parry, who for all the world appear to have sold to the Americans in the first place not because it was the best option for Liverpool Football Club, but because it offered them a few extra quid and some short-term job security.
Click here to find out more!

Then there is the management. Even last season when the team was chasing Manchester United – rather forlornly as it turned out – for the title, there were doubts for much of the campaign about the style of football, the manager’s mentality, the politics and the grasp of what it takes to win the Premier League.

Don’t forget the players of course. Liverpool possess at least four players who are arguably the best in the world in their position, and they have other fantastic professionals who have operated at a world level over a consistent period. But they also seem to have yet more players who wouldn’t get into the Nags Head side from the playing fields behind my house on a Sunday.

The question is: who is to blame for this sorry mess? Where should the fans be venting their fury, and where should the changes be made to ensure that the crisis which has gripped the club for too long doesn’t eventually tear Anfield apart altogether?

Let’s start at the top eh, because that is the usual fall back at Anfield for anyone trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the mess that their club is in.

Fundamentally, there are two reasons why Hicks and Gillett have failed to deliver on the promises they gave when they bought the club (ignoring for the moment the promises they apparently gave to Moores and Parry about their position in the directors’ box).

First and foremost, things have gone wrong because the easy, cheap credit on which their business model was based disappeared overnight in the global economic meltdown of 2008. Basically, too many people like Hicks and Gillett were consumed with the greed of making quick bucks, and the banks got their fingers burnt, so suddenly pulled the plug on lending.

With borrowing suddenly very expensive, and without another line of credit, the Americans could no longer buy Liverpool with the club’s own money as they had planned, and as the Glazers were doing at Old Trafford. So believe it or not, they actually put considerable amounts of their own money in, to keep their investment afloat.

That though, wasn’t part of the plan, and hence budgets have been tightened, spending restricted and books balanced, which certainly hasn’t helped in terms of player recruitment. But then, Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal have suffered in exactly the same way over the past 12 months, as has just about every other club in Europe bar Real Madrid.

While many fans won’t like it, the fact is that the method of financing Liverpool Football Club is not the only reason for the club’s downfall. Current interest payments are not crippling, and they will be reduced in the summer when fresh investment arrives. A club of Liverpool’s size can more than maintain ownership-related payments, be they shareholder dividends, tax on profits or interest.

Of course, the ridiculous relationship between the two owners doesn’t help, and it is here that perhaps Parry and Moores must take some blame. Hicks – and again you’ll have to take a leap of faith with me here – is actually a respected businessman in the States, perhaps in the top two in what he does, and a man who rubs shoulders with Presidents.

He was a perfectly reasonable man to invite into Anfield, because his track record in business (if not in sports franchises), was in identifying under-performing companies, turning them around and making them a success, and then selling them on for a profit (which is exactly what DIC wanted to do, by the way).

That’s no crime, and there are good reasons for allowing that to happen, because to become a successful company, Liverpool would have to win trophies and reside at the summit of the world game - fulfilling the demands of the fans.

But spend more than a few seconds on the internet researching Gillett, and you come up with a very different picture. He is a maverick, a man who went bankrupt as recently as the '90s, and someone who has always operated at the business margins.

That Hicks was doing going into partnership with someone like that is anyone’s guess (and mine is that greed thing again), but it was never going to work, because you had two businessmen with very different methods. One traditional, the other, well, let us say unconventional. It didn’t work, and Liverpool got Abbott and Costello in charge.

The fact that the two couldn’t get on, and still don’t, is one of the biggest single reasons behind the mess of the last few years. But largely, that problem has been resolved, with the appointment of an almost independent managing director, who is working on the banks for the financial good of the company, not the necessarily owners.

There have been fewer blunders since Christian Purslow took over, only the PR gaffe of Tom Hicks junior bad-mouthing fans causing ripples, but significantly, the club is now being run perfectly well when it comes to finances, and when the debt is reduced further by £100million new investment in May, then the situation will be even better, and potentially brighter in the long run.

Which means the ownership issue has been clouding other reasons for Liverpool’s demise. And whichever way you look at it, you have to ultimately keep coming back to the issue of management.

Some of the players from the squad that went into this season were not good enough for Anfield, that much is clear. The likes of Andrea Dossena, Andreiy Voronin and Philipp Degen should never, ever have been shown a red shirt, never mind allowed to put one on.

Others, such as Albert Riera, Fabio Aurelio, Yossi Benayoun, Ryan Babel, Lucas, Emiliano Insua, David Ngog, and Damien Plessis are good enough players, but good enough to be champions? That is half the squad that entered this season, a possible title-winning season, under the name of Liverpool. And Rafa Benitez recruited them all.

Then, there is the issue of the star players not performing, and it is true that at times during this campaign, Fernando Torres, Javier Mascherano, Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher have not reached the level they are capable of.

The question is, why? Each of those players must look at himself and take some responsibility, because another star player, Pepe Reina, hasn’t under-performed, and yet has suffered the same problems as the others.

But these are the same players who inspired Liverpool to finish second 12 months ago, and this is the same squad that was apparently on the verge of the title, with the addition of a £20million midfielder and an £18million right back.

And it is here we keep coming back to the management, because for all the protests about money, for all the complaints about owners and a lack of investment, Rafael Benitez had £40million to spend in the summer to improve a squad that lost only two players he didn’t want.

Liverpool needed to take one step forward to win the title, especially because Manchester United and Arsenal all took a step backwards, by losing their best players and declining to replace them, and Chelsea didn’t invest at all.

Sure, he lost Xabi Alonso, but that’s because he WANTED to. He had planned for basically two years to sell the midfielder, and replace him with Gareth Barry, but crucially forgot to ensure that Barry was still happy with that switch, after being so badly let down the previous summer.

So he had to find a Plan B, and that turned out to be Alberto Aquilani. Liverpool were one step away from being genuine contenders, and for the position around which their whole challenge would revolve, they bought a crock. A guy who was injured and wouldn’t be fit until Christmas. And they spent £20million on him.

Now, I know hindsight is a great thing, but c’mon, honestly. Why buy for the future when the present is offering you so many riches? Liverpool needed to go forward last summer, and instead they took a massive step backwards, and for that the manager must take the blame.

Not only did he waste £20million on an injured player who offered no guarantees he could EVER become accustomed to the pace of English football, he also spent £18million replacing a right back who didn’t need replacing, with a totally different style of player whose presence would fundamentally change the way the team set up.

Again, the title was THERE for the taking, but Benitez chose to bring in a player who would demand a different way of playing, which would take time to get used to, and implement. In fact, it has taken all season, and Liverpool are still not comfortable with it, which is evidenced by the fact that their best spell was when Carragher and then Mascherano were playing right back.

So, for all the complaints about owners, about the way the club is run, and the lack of investment, Liverpool had a chance of taking one step forward to potential glory, and instead took massive strides in the opposite direction. Don't accept that? Well, his other summer transfer move was to bring back Voronin, his idea of cover for Torres.

Benitez, in essence, gambled and lost. He bought for the future when the present was calling. He made fundamental changes when fine tuning was required.

And it is my belief that in doing so, he lost some of his senior players. Everyone sees professional footballers as almost machine-link athletes, but they are people too, and they have thoughts and emotions.

When they see someone as popular as Alonso treated like a product, hawked around for all of the summer of 2008, and effectively forced out of the club because of that, then they will get an uneasy feeling.

But when they see his replacement as not being up to the task, and when they see their system changed and therefore undermined, they begin to ask questions and have doubts. It is a similar experience to the summer of 2002, when Liverpool were again a step away from the title and wasted £25million on Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou. The players then knew their manager had wasted a golden opportunity, and from that moment he had lost his squad.

Managers are entitled to gamble, but when it fails, they have to accept responsibility, and as far as I can see, that is not happening at Liverpool, which is why there is so much confusion, gloom and sense of crisis around the place.

Benitez is lucky because the concern with ownership issues has deflected attention away from him, and has probably kept him in a job. But his position will have to be addressed, and when it is, there are two options.

One is to stick with him, and after all, he does have a decent track record, even if he did make disastrous mistakes last summer. It is a big decision, because the consequence of losing the respect of your players is that quite a few of them have to go, including some star names, and that inevitably means yet another period of rebuilding.

The other is to decide that with four or five of the best players in the world as the backbone to their team, Liverpool are not quite so badly off as the current position suggests.

This option would see a new manager coming in and flogging off some of the dead wood around the place to finance quality new signings, while inspiring his top-class players to reach new heights, and lead the team to the Promised Land.

This of course, would require the right man to be recruited, and the flaw in this option is that Liverpool hardly have a good track record in that area over the past two decades, do they?

by **TheLad** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:38 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:For a club their size Juve dont actually have that many fans going to watch games - they currently dont even get anywhere near a sell out at the del appi

They have one of the biggest fan basis all around the world, but in their home city (Torino) most of the fans are FC Torino supporters, that's why they hardly sell out. Besides, they don't play at Delle Alpi any more but at the Stadio Olimpico di Torino..

by **Penguins** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:51 pm

s@int wrote:By David Maddock

Published 12:02 23/03/10

For perhaps the past 12 months, Liverpool fans have been presented with the worst kind of dilemma.

They know that what they see out on the pitch simply isn’t good enough for their great, no, make that historic, club, but what they can’t quite work out, is who to blame.

There are the comedy villains, of course, the two American owners whose bickering, childish relationship lies at the heart of the own goals and gaffes that have fatally undermined their tenure.

There is the previous regime of David Moores and his Chief Executive Rick Parry, who for all the world appear to have sold to the Americans in the first place not because it was the best option for Liverpool Football Club, but because it offered them a few extra quid and some short-term job security.
Click here to find out more!

Then there is the management. Even last season when the team was chasing Manchester United – rather forlornly as it turned out – for the title, there were doubts for much of the campaign about the style of football, the manager’s mentality, the politics and the grasp of what it takes to win the Premier League.

Don’t forget the players of course. Liverpool possess at least four players who are arguably the best in the world in their position, and they have other fantastic professionals who have operated at a world level over a consistent period. But they also seem to have yet more players who wouldn’t get into the Nags Head side from the playing fields behind my house on a Sunday.

The question is: who is to blame for this sorry mess? Where should the fans be venting their fury, and where should the changes be made to ensure that the crisis which has gripped the club for too long doesn’t eventually tear Anfield apart altogether?

Let’s start at the top eh, because that is the usual fall back at Anfield for anyone trying to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the mess that their club is in.

Fundamentally, there are two reasons why Hicks and Gillett have failed to deliver on the promises they gave when they bought the club (ignoring for the moment the promises they apparently gave to Moores and Parry about their position in the directors’ box).

First and foremost, things have gone wrong because the easy, cheap credit on which their business model was based disappeared overnight in the global economic meltdown of 2008. Basically, too many people like Hicks and Gillett were consumed with the greed of making quick bucks, and the banks got their fingers burnt, so suddenly pulled the plug on lending.

With borrowing suddenly very expensive, and without another line of credit, the Americans could no longer buy Liverpool with the club’s own money as they had planned, and as the Glazers were doing at Old Trafford. So believe it or not, they actually put considerable amounts of their own money in, to keep their investment afloat.

That though, wasn’t part of the plan, and hence budgets have been tightened, spending restricted and books balanced, which certainly hasn’t helped in terms of player recruitment. But then, Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal have suffered in exactly the same way over the past 12 months, as has just about every other club in Europe bar Real Madrid.

While many fans won’t like it, the fact is that the method of financing Liverpool Football Club is not the only reason for the club’s downfall. Current interest payments are not crippling, and they will be reduced in the summer when fresh investment arrives. A club of Liverpool’s size can more than maintain ownership-related payments, be they shareholder dividends, tax on profits or interest.

Of course, the ridiculous relationship between the two owners doesn’t help, and it is here that perhaps Parry and Moores must take some blame. Hicks – and again you’ll have to take a leap of faith with me here – is actually a respected businessman in the States, perhaps in the top two in what he does, and a man who rubs shoulders with Presidents.

He was a perfectly reasonable man to invite into Anfield, because his track record in business (if not in sports franchises), was in identifying under-performing companies, turning them around and making them a success, and then selling them on for a profit (which is exactly what DIC wanted to do, by the way).

That’s no crime, and there are good reasons for allowing that to happen, because to become a successful company, Liverpool would have to win trophies and reside at the summit of the world game - fulfilling the demands of the fans.

But spend more than a few seconds on the internet researching Gillett, and you come up with a very different picture. He is a maverick, a man who went bankrupt as recently as the '90s, and someone who has always operated at the business margins.

That Hicks was doing going into partnership with someone like that is anyone’s guess (and mine is that greed thing again), but it was never going to work, because you had two businessmen with very different methods. One traditional, the other, well, let us say unconventional. It didn’t work, and Liverpool got Abbott and Costello in charge.

The fact that the two couldn’t get on, and still don’t, is one of the biggest single reasons behind the mess of the last few years. But largely, that problem has been resolved, with the appointment of an almost independent managing director, who is working on the banks for the financial good of the company, not the necessarily owners.

There have been fewer blunders since Christian Purslow took over, only the PR gaffe of Tom Hicks junior bad-mouthing fans causing ripples, but significantly, the club is now being run perfectly well when it comes to finances, and when the debt is reduced further by £100million new investment in May, then the situation will be even better, and potentially brighter in the long run.

Which means the ownership issue has been clouding other reasons for Liverpool’s demise. And whichever way you look at it, you have to ultimately keep coming back to the issue of management.

Some of the players from the squad that went into this season were not good enough for Anfield, that much is clear. The likes of Andrea Dossena, Andreiy Voronin and Philipp Degen should never, ever have been shown a red shirt, never mind allowed to put one on.

Others, such as Albert Riera, Fabio Aurelio, Yossi Benayoun, Ryan Babel, Lucas, Emiliano Insua, David Ngog, and Damien Plessis are good enough players, but good enough to be champions? That is half the squad that entered this season, a possible title-winning season, under the name of Liverpool. And Rafa Benitez recruited them all.

Then, there is the issue of the star players not performing, and it is true that at times during this campaign, Fernando Torres, Javier Mascherano, Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher have not reached the level they are capable of.

The question is, why? Each of those players must look at himself and take some responsibility, because another star player, Pepe Reina, hasn’t under-performed, and yet has suffered the same problems as the others.

But these are the same players who inspired Liverpool to finish second 12 months ago, and this is the same squad that was apparently on the verge of the title, with the addition of a £20million midfielder and an £18million right back.

And it is here we keep coming back to the management, because for all the protests about money, for all the complaints about owners and a lack of investment, Rafael Benitez had £40million to spend in the summer to improve a squad that lost only two players he didn’t want.

Liverpool needed to take one step forward to win the title, especially because Manchester United and Arsenal all took a step backwards, by losing their best players and declining to replace them, and Chelsea didn’t invest at all.

Sure, he lost Xabi Alonso, but that’s because he WANTED to. He had planned for basically two years to sell the midfielder, and replace him with Gareth Barry, but crucially forgot to ensure that Barry was still happy with that switch, after being so badly let down the previous summer.

So he had to find a Plan B, and that turned out to be Alberto Aquilani. Liverpool were one step away from being genuine contenders, and for the position around which their whole challenge would revolve, they bought a crock. A guy who was injured and wouldn’t be fit until Christmas. And they spent £20million on him.

Now, I know hindsight is a great thing, but c’mon, honestly. Why buy for the future when the present is offering you so many riches? Liverpool needed to go forward last summer, and instead they took a massive step backwards, and for that the manager must take the blame.

Not only did he waste £20million on an injured player who offered no guarantees he could EVER become accustomed to the pace of English football, he also spent £18million replacing a right back who didn’t need replacing, with a totally different style of player whose presence would fundamentally change the way the team set up.

Again, the title was THERE for the taking, but Benitez chose to bring in a player who would demand a different way of playing, which would take time to get used to, and implement. In fact, it has taken all season, and Liverpool are still not comfortable with it, which is evidenced by the fact that their best spell was when Carragher and then Mascherano were playing right back.

So, for all the complaints about owners, about the way the club is run, and the lack of investment, Liverpool had a chance of taking one step forward to potential glory, and instead took massive strides in the opposite direction. Don't accept that? Well, his other summer transfer move was to bring back Voronin, his idea of cover for Torres.

Benitez, in essence, gambled and lost. He bought for the future when the present was calling. He made fundamental changes when fine tuning was required.

And it is my belief that in doing so, he lost some of his senior players. Everyone sees professional footballers as almost machine-link athletes, but they are people too, and they have thoughts and emotions.

When they see someone as popular as Alonso treated like a product, hawked around for all of the summer of 2008, and effectively forced out of the club because of that, then they will get an uneasy feeling.

But when they see his replacement as not being up to the task, and when they see their system changed and therefore undermined, they begin to ask questions and have doubts. It is a similar experience to the summer of 2002, when Liverpool were again a step away from the title and wasted £25million on Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou. The players then knew their manager had wasted a golden opportunity, and from that moment he had lost his squad.

Managers are entitled to gamble, but when it fails, they have to accept responsibility, and as far as I can see, that is not happening at Liverpool, which is why there is so much confusion, gloom and sense of crisis around the place.

Benitez is lucky because the concern with ownership issues has deflected attention away from him, and has probably kept him in a job. But his position will have to be addressed, and when it is, there are two options.

One is to stick with him, and after all, he does have a decent track record, even if he did make disastrous mistakes last summer. It is a big decision, because the consequence of losing the respect of your players is that quite a few of them have to go, including some star names, and that inevitably means yet another period of rebuilding.

The other is to decide that with four or five of the best players in the world as the backbone to their team, Liverpool are not quite so badly off as the current position suggests.

This option would see a new manager coming in and flogging off some of the dead wood around the place to finance quality new signings, while inspiring his top-class players to reach new heights, and lead the team to the Promised Land.

This of course, would require the right man to be recruited, and the flaw in this option is that Liverpool hardly have a good track record in that area over the past two decades, do they?

Others, such as Albert Riera, Fabio Aurelio, Yossi Benayoun, Ryan Babel, Lucas, Emiliano Insua, David Ngog, and Damien Plessis are good enough players, but good enough to be champions?

Exactly this is an issue because if you look at the average cost of these squad players you see a big reason why we are behind the 8-ball.

Around 3-4 million is what those players cost on average.
Now look at our rivals and see how much their squad players cost and the wages those players get compared to our squad players.

IT MATTERS! Get that in your head.... :no

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:02 pm

Van der sar, Evra, Owen, Foster, Park, Evans, Fletcher, O'shea, yes it matters that you sign the RIGHT PLAYERS ..... get that in your head.

by **dawson99** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:04 pm

and if the 8 players players cost around 4 million each, why not just buy one player for 32million (or 2 for 16 each) and use the reserves or whatever as hes piled players in there as well...

by **bigmick** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:21 pm

The Maddock fella is on the money.

Last season we missed out on the title by four points. The scenario is that you are told we are going to get 30 million quid for Alonso, and 5 million quid for Arbeloa. We are going to be allowed to spend ALL the money on replacements, plus a couple of mill.

If someone had told you at that point that the Mancs were going to lose Ronaldo and Tevez and replace them with Owen and Valencia (making a profit of 62 million quid, would have been more if Tevez hadn't left for free) would you have been confident of overtaking them? If you were still in doubt, they could have told you that both Vidic and Ferdinand were going to miss over half the season.

If they'd have told you that Arsenal (who we finished well ahead of) were going to lose Emanuel Adebayor and Kolo Toure, not bothering to replace ther front man and replacing the defender with Vermaelan, would you have been confident about finishing above them again? What if they told you that an Persie was going to be injured all season, would that have settled any doubts you had?

And what of Chelsea, who we finished above last season? They were going to keep their players, get a new manager and sign a Russian fella for 18 million quid to play fullback. They also had the African Nations Cup to contend with, and Michael Essien being injured nearly all season. Confident?

What about Spurs, Villa, City, Everton, Birmingham etc etc etc etc. Have they really all improved out of all recognition.

This "Rafa hater" says it's not all the owners. The management of the team has been a farce, get rid.

by **kazza** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:48 pm

bigmick wrote:This "Rafa hater" says it's not all the owners. The management of the team has been a farce, get rid.

What?? You mean you really do hate Rafa and were not joking this whole time. Feck me, we really do need a sarcasm smiley.

by **kazza** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:08 pm

bigmick wrote:The Maddock fella is on the money.

Last season we missed out on the title by four points. The scenario is that you are told we are going to get 30 million quid for Alonso, and 5 million quid for Arbeloa. We are going to be allowed to spend ALL the money on replacements, plus a couple of mill.

If someone had told you at that point that the Mancs were going to lose Ronaldo and Tevez and replace them with Owen and Valencia (making a profit of 62 million quid, would have been more if Tevez hadn't left for free) would you have been confident of overtaking them? If you were still in doubt, they could have told you that both Vidic and Ferdinand were going to miss over half the season.

If they'd have told you that Arsenal (who we finished well ahead of) were going to lose Emanuel Adebayor and Kolo Toure, not bothering to replace ther front man and replacing the defender with Vermaelan, would you have been confident about finishing above them again? What if they told you that an Persie was going to be injured all season, would that have settled any doubts you had?

And what of Chelsea, who we finished above last season? They were going to keep their players, get a new manager and sign a Russian fella for 18 million quid to play fullback. They also had the African Nations Cup to contend with, and Michael Essien being injured nearly all season. Confident?

What about Spurs, Villa, City, Everton, Birmingham etc etc etc etc. Have they really all improved out of all recognition.

This "Rafa hater" says it's not all the owners. The management of the team has been a farce, get rid.

Funny how you constantly only give half the story. You talk about the other teams suffering from injuries painting them out to be victims, yet you conveniently do not mention our own worries with injuries. You talk like Rafa knew Alonso was going, even though he was sold towards the end of the transfer window which says Rafa tried to keep him or at least there was a chance he would not go. By your rational, if we finish above Arsenal next year, should Wenger go?The truth seems unimportant to you but still you keep going. Still, as long as your happy.

No doubt your response will be as usual, no answer only a (not so) smiley.

by **Fauxy** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:14 pm

kazza wrote:
bigmick wrote:The Maddock fella is on the money.

Last season we missed out on the title by four points. The scenario is that you are told we are going to get 30 million quid for Alonso, and 5 million quid for Arbeloa. We are going to be allowed to spend ALL the money on replacements, plus a couple of mill.

If someone had told you at that point that the Mancs were going to lose Ronaldo and Tevez and replace them with Owen and Valencia (making a profit of 62 million quid, would have been more if Tevez hadn't left for free) would you have been confident of overtaking them? If you were still in doubt, they could have told you that both Vidic and Ferdinand were going to miss over half the season.

If they'd have told you that Arsenal (who we finished well ahead of) were going to lose Emanuel Adebayor and Kolo Toure, not bothering to replace ther front man and replacing the defender with Vermaelan, would you have been confident about finishing above them again? What if they told you that an Persie was going to be injured all season, would that have settled any doubts you had?

And what of Chelsea, who we finished above last season? They were going to keep their players, get a new manager and sign a Russian fella for 18 million quid to play fullback. They also had the African Nations Cup to contend with, and Michael Essien being injured nearly all season. Confident?

What about Spurs, Villa, City, Everton, Birmingham etc etc etc etc. Have they really all improved out of all recognition.

This "Rafa hater" says it's not all the owners. The management of the team has been a farce, get rid.

Funny how you constantly only give half the story. You talk about the other teams suffering from injuries painting them out to be victims, yet you conveniently do not mention our own worries with injuries. You talk like Rafa knew Alonso was going, even though he was sold towards the end of the transfer window which says Rafa tried to keep him or at least there was a chance he would not go. The truth seems unimportant to you but still you keep going. Still, as long as your happy.

No doubt your response will be as usual, no answer only a (not so) smiley.

Was thinking the same thing as i read bigmick's post..

Torres, Gerrard, Johnson, Benayoun and Agger are all massive players for us. They have been out for a big chunk of the season so you cant just ignore that and mention everyone else's injuries.

by **devaney** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:15 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
devaney wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
devaney wrote:
Tophatman wrote:Maybe if Benitez does go to Madrid,he may want to off load Alonso, back to us!!!

Why the fk do you think Real Madrid would be remotely interested in Benitez. Sorry forgot it was football - fk the job up - get a massive pay off - go to bigger club and get even more money - why?

Don't know why your jumping down his throat mate, I (and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone in thinking they will be interested in Rafa) think they will be watccing Rafa's situation at LFC very closely. Here's a few reasons why.

- He's a Real Madrid old boy
- He's Spanish
- He beat Madrid to two titles in 3 years whilst managing unfashionable Valencia
- He's won a European Cup and been to another final with LFC
- His record in the European Cup is pretty impressive period
- His Liverpool side completely wiped the floor with Madrid last season, winning at their place and thrashing them at Anfield
- Oh, and I understand they have been in for him THREE TIMES in the past during his stint with LFC.

That's why they might be interested (despite this clusterfu...c...k of season)

Sorry Scott - I wasn't really having a go at you. All of you're reasons would look good on any CV for a prospective candidate but unfortunately you can pick holes in nearly all of them. For example just how good is his CL record.Very nearly out in the group stages the year we won it due to some idiotic tactical selections and then selects Kewell in the final and leaves Hamann out. Last season in the CL Rafa very nearly messed things up and this season he definately did.Real Madrid spent nearly a quarter of a billion pounds to rebuild what was a poor team by their standards and whilst the 4-1 was a brilliant result we caught them on a very bad day. Valencia winning the league title twice was a fantastic achievement but it was a long time ago. As for past interest in Rafa just how genuine was it? Was it just more agent hype to gain a superior negotiating stance to get Rafa his five year £25m contract.

I hate being so negative about Benitez but I really think it is time for a change. Rafa clearly seems to have run out of ideas in a season when Man United and Chelsea have lost a lot more games than in recent years. Everything seemed to start going wrong when Paco Ayestarán left after a disagreement and they had been together for a very long time. I don't think he has the same relationship with Sammy Lee - just an opinion - I'm not sure? Rafa clearly has problems with the man management side of his role. You only have to look at the body language of so many of the players to appreciate that they are absolutely fed up and Rafa seems incapable of motivating them. Is it Rafa, the silenced Kop, SOS protests or the chronic effect of our awful owners or a combination of things that have turned us into such a dispirited team?

Unless we win the Europa League Rafa will have gone four years without winning anything and for the best part playing some awful football. His stubbornness and boring style of play will be two of the key reasons that would not excite me if I was Real Madrid. His record in the transfer market would be another. The fact that he can speak Spanish would be an advantage - at least the fans would have a chance of understanding him!

On the Real Madrid thing, a point and a question...

The point: Rafa's debatable transfer record wouldn't matter to them because, in Spain, the manager gets very little say over the transfers as it is, let alone at Madrid where every signing is about politics, marketing or both.

The question: what club hired 'Magic' Juande Ramos for his next managerial gig after he completely ballsed things up at Spurs? Answers on a postcard...

Given that the average tenure of a Real Madrid manager is 12 months or less who knows they could possibly catch Rafa on a good year - HE IS DUE ONE!

by **7_Kewell** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:48 pm

Rafa has fallen into the same trap that Houllier did .

-Spending over the odds for woefully average players
-Cracking under pressure (although for Houllier it was more physical than mental)
- Negative tactics

Personally, I wouldn’t trust Rafa to buy the morning coffees, let alone quality players who are suitable for Liverpool FC.

by **redmikey** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:06 pm

bigmick wrote:The Maddock fella is on the money.

Last season we missed out on the title by four points. The scenario is that you are told we are going to get 30 million quid for Alonso, and 5 million quid for Arbeloa. We are going to be allowed to spend ALL the money on replacements, plus a couple of mill.

If someone had told you at that point that the Mancs were going to lose Ronaldo and Tevez and replace them with Owen and Valencia (making a profit of 62 million quid, would have been more if Tevez hadn't left for free) would you have been confident of overtaking them? If you were still in doubt, they could have told you that both Vidic and Ferdinand were going to miss over half the season.

If they'd have told you that Arsenal (who we finished well ahead of) were going to lose Emanuel Adebayor and Kolo Toure, not bothering to replace ther front man and replacing the defender with Vermaelan, would you have been confident about finishing above them again? What if they told you that an Persie was going to be injured all season, would that have settled any doubts you had?

And what of Chelsea, who we finished above last season? They were going to keep their players, get a new manager and sign a Russian fella for 18 million quid to play fullback. They also had the African Nations Cup to contend with, and Michael Essien being injured nearly all season. Confident?

What about Spurs, Villa, City, Everton, Birmingham etc etc etc etc. Have they really all improved out of all recognition.

This "Rafa hater" says it's not all the owners. The management of the team has been a farce, get rid.

mick,

i know people don't love rafa but i have yet to hear 1 single suggestion as to who people would rather have which is not idiotic or a pipe dream

gus hiddink wouldn't stay at chavski even with close links to roman

maureen wouldn't come to us as we have no money and are in a flat spin as a club

who else , enlighten me please.

this comes from someone who reads and respects a lot of things you post.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:07 pm

devaney wrote:
Scottbot wrote:
devaney wrote:
Tophatman wrote:Maybe if Benitez does go to Madrid,he may want to off load Alonso, back to us!!!

Why the fk do you think Real Madrid would be remotely interested in Benitez. Sorry forgot it was football - fk the job up - get a massive pay off - go to bigger club and get even more money - why?

Don't know why your jumping down his throat mate, I (and i'm pretty sure i'm not alone in thinking they will be interested in Rafa) think they will be watccing Rafa's situation at LFC very closely. Here's a few reasons why.

- He's a Real Madrid old boy
- He's Spanish
- He beat Madrid to two titles in 3 years whilst managing unfashionable Valencia
- He's won a European Cup and been to another final with LFC
- His record in the European Cup is pretty impressive period
- His Liverpool side completely wiped the floor with Madrid last season, winning at their place and thrashing them at Anfield
- Oh, and I understand they have been in for him THREE TIMES in the past during his stint with LFC.

That's why they might be interested (despite this clusterfu...c...k of season)

Sorry Scott - I wasn't really having a go at you. All of you're reasons would look good on any CV for a prospective candidate but unfortunately you can pick holes in nearly all of them. For example just how good is his CL record.Very nearly out in the group stages the year we won it due to some idiotic tactical selections and then selects Kewell in the final and leaves Hamann out. Last season in the CL Rafa very nearly messed things up and this season he definately did.Real Madrid spent nearly a quarter of a billion pounds to rebuild what was a poor team by their standards and whilst the 4-1 was a brilliant result we caught them on a very bad day. Valencia winning the league title twice was a fantastic achievement but it was a long time ago. As for past interest in Rafa just how genuine was it? Was it just more agent hype to gain a superior negotiating stance to get Rafa his five year £25m contract.

I hate being so negative about Benitez but I really think it is time for a change. Rafa clearly seems to have run out of ideas in a season when Man United and Chelsea have lost a lot more games than in recent years. Everything seemed to start going wrong when Paco Ayestarán left after a disagreement and they had been together for a very long time. I don't think he has the same relationship with Sammy Lee - just an opinion - I'm not sure? Rafa clearly has problems with the man management side of his role. You only have to look at the body language of so many of the players to appreciate that they are absolutely fed up and Rafa seems incapable of motivating them. Is it Rafa, the silenced Kop, SOS protests or the chronic effect of our awful owners or a combination of things that have turned us into such a dispirited team?

Unless we win the Europa League Rafa will have gone four years without winning anything and for the best part playing some awful football. His stubbornness and boring style of play will be two of the key reasons that would not excite me if I was Real Madrid. His record in the transfer market would be another. The fact that he can speak Spanish would be an advantage - at least the fans would have a chance of understanding him!

Eh, hang on a minute.

Madrid have made a career of both employing sh!t managers and sacking sh!t managers

by **stmichael** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:14 pm

bigmick wrote:The Maddock fella is on the money.

Last season we missed out on the title by four points. The scenario is that you are told we are going to get 30 million quid for Alonso, and 5 million quid for Arbeloa. We are going to be allowed to spend ALL the money on replacements, plus a couple of mill.

If someone had told you at that point that the Mancs were going to lose Ronaldo and Tevez and replace them with Owen and Valencia (making a profit of 62 million quid, would have been more if Tevez hadn't left for free) would you have been confident of overtaking them? If you were still in doubt, they could have told you that both Vidic and Ferdinand were going to miss over half the season.

If they'd have told you that Arsenal (who we finished well ahead of) were going to lose Emanuel Adebayor and Kolo Toure, not bothering to replace ther front man and replacing the defender with Vermaelan, would you have been confident about finishing above them again? What if they told you that an Persie was going to be injured all season, would that have settled any doubts you had?

And what of Chelsea, who we finished above last season? They were going to keep their players, get a new manager and sign a Russian fella for 18 million quid to play fullback. They also had the African Nations Cup to contend with, and Michael Essien being injured nearly all season. Confident?

What about Spurs, Villa, City, Everton, Birmingham etc etc etc etc. Have they really all improved out of all recognition.

This "Rafa hater" says it's not all the owners. The management of the team has been a farce, get rid.

Last season, when we lost our lead to Utd after our disastrous results in January, Rafa went on the offensive. He threw caution to the wind because we had nothing to lose in doing so. He carried on this tactic into the start of the new season but unfortunately it backfired on us with Spurs and then Sunderland hitting us on the counter. I don't think Rafa can be blamed for assuming that what worked last season would carry on working. He wasn't to know that so many players would lose their peak form, even though we had a disruptive pre-season.

So what did Rafa do? He reverted to type and adopted the cautious approach, that is lower risk and at least provides stability if not excitement. We have suffered a lot with injuries this season but Rafa also has to take his share of the blame for not supplementing the squad and choosing to spend what money he had on Aquilani.

This season is a strange one. For me, it's a blip. Mourinho didn't play exciting, attractive football with Chelsea but managed to get the results he needed to win the league. Which proves that you don't always have to throw caution to the wind. Our situation isn't too different from the one Arsenal found themselves in last season. Wenger proved he can turn it around. I don't see any reason, barring major off the pitch problems, why Rafa can't do the same next season.

by **redmikey** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:20 pm

stmichael wrote:
bigmick wrote:The Maddock fella is on the money.

Last season we missed out on the title by four points. The scenario is that you are told we are going to get 30 million quid for Alonso, and 5 million quid for Arbeloa. We are going to be allowed to spend ALL the money on replacements, plus a couple of mill.

If someone had told you at that point that the Mancs were going to lose Ronaldo and Tevez and replace them with Owen and Valencia (making a profit of 62 million quid, would have been more if Tevez hadn't left for free) would you have been confident of overtaking them? If you were still in doubt, they could have told you that both Vidic and Ferdinand were going to miss over half the season.

If they'd have told you that Arsenal (who we finished well ahead of) were going to lose Emanuel Adebayor and Kolo Toure, not bothering to replace ther front man and replacing the defender with Vermaelan, would you have been confident about finishing above them again? What if they told you that an Persie was going to be injured all season, would that have settled any doubts you had?

And what of Chelsea, who we finished above last season? They were going to keep their players, get a new manager and sign a Russian fella for 18 million quid to play fullback. They also had the African Nations Cup to contend with, and Michael Essien being injured nearly all season. Confident?

What about Spurs, Villa, City, Everton, Birmingham etc etc etc etc. Have they really all improved out of all recognition.

This "Rafa hater" says it's not all the owners. The management of the team has been a farce, get rid.

Last season, when we lost our lead to Utd after our disastrous results in January, Rafa went on the offensive. He threw caution to the wind because we had nothing to lose in doing so. He carried on this tactic into the start of the new season but unfortunately it backfired on us with Spurs and then Sunderland hitting us on the counter. I don't think Rafa can be blamed for assuming that what worked last season would carry on working. He wasn't to know that so many players would lose their peak form, even though we had a disruptive pre-season.

So what did Rafa do? He reverted to type and adopted the cautious approach, that is lower risk and at least provides stability if not excitement. We have suffered a lot with injuries this season but Rafa also has to take his share of the blame for not supplementing the squad and choosing to spend what money he had on Aquilani.

This season is a strange one. For me, it's a blip. Mourinho didn't play exciting, attractive football with Chelsea but managed to get the results he needed to win the league. Which proves that you don't always have to throw caution to the wind. Our situation isn't too different from the one Arsenal found themselves in last season. Wenger proved he can turn it around. I don't see any reason, barring major off the pitch problems, why Rafa can't do the same next season.

great post ............. supporter instead of fan

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