Liverpool FC Forum

by **redbeergoggles** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:50 pm

bigmick wrote:The excuses are coming thick and fast of course, but somewhat disappointingly my "Rafa is doing it on purpose to get rid of the owners innit" is steadfastly refusing to gather any momentum. I haven't given up hope yet that this one will come through on the rails, although it's definately got some ground to make up.

Fairly predictably, "it's the injuries" has now pulled a couple of lengths clear of "it's the owners", with "it's the players" still in touch in third. In the pack chasing in behind you've got "Primary targets", "it's Gerrards body language" and "it's the ref's". Held up at the back but looking like he's got a bit in hand is "we've just been unlucky", while after an early run "it's the beachball" seems to have gone lame and looks like he may not get another mention. Covered up at the back are "hands tied behind his back" and "we wuz sh!t when he arrived". "Five year plan" has gone lame and has been pulled up, but surely the darkest of dark horses is the one to have your money on. He hasn't raised a mention for a while now, but you can just make him out, sitting motionless at the back of the field. He's going to be the winner when the dust settles surely, "it's fecking Parry " is the one to be on.

If I am being honest Mick no excuses ,but you seem to have omitted my choice ,so with that conclusion in mind I am going to have to ask for a stewards enquiry on the grounds of the horse I backed taken completely out of the running ,Blind Faith,you see has served me well in the past ,backed it a few times and its come from nowhere to comfortably pass the winning post .

Just when you think its a donkey ,it turns into the kind of thoroughbred you always sometimes blindly believed it to be ,and before you know it your celebrating (whatever did become of that horse ? )

by **roberto green** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:17 pm

teamleader1 wrote:
roberto green wrote:
teamleader1 wrote:
roberto green wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:If we dont have a change of manager sooner rather than later we will be out of all the cup competitions and playing for a mid-table place by january. If any more money is given to Rafa he will only squander it on bad buys.....(he has been strongly linked with Upson from west ham?) another mediocre overated, and vastly overpriced at £12-14 million!...30 yrs old with no sell on value......thats the type of player rafa will waste more money on....give him no more.......just show him the Door!

Can we just show you the door, what a load of s h i t you are talking you should ashamed of yourself. Your not a real supporter.

I think Rafa should go

Now please explain why Im not a true supporter!

because a real supporter would have the brain to realise what is really wrong at our club and it runs much deeper than the manager.

Also a real supporter didn't get carried away with our second place last season(prob like yourself who thought Benitez was the Bees Knees) and is now to fickle to see the big picture.

Ok I admit Benitez gets on my nerves at times but name me a man who will do a better job in this situation?

Oh really!

So who exactly behind the scenes makes him play 2 defensive MF home and away?
Who made him sell Keane after 6 months and leave us with the mouth watering prospect of bringing Voronin back to fill the void along with Ngog?
Who insisted he replaced Alonso with Lucas?
Who made him sell Bellamy and keep a poor buy like Babel?
Who made him bring in the likes of Deggan, Dossena
Who made him buy a 20ml player who will miss at Least half the season?

And do me a favour, Dont cast up last seasons 2nd place!
it was achieved after 5 fkn years and a load of cash spent.
I expect us to be making the top 3 every season

Ive followed LFC through the good and bad times and Im still going,
Ive been lucky enough to see some great managers here
And believe me Rafa is NOT one of the greats!

If Daggers took over tomorrow he would improve things whatever was going on behind the scenes.

Alright lad you have your opinion and I'll answer your questions now as follows seeing you couldn't answer mine

So who exactly behind the scenes makes him play 2 defensive MF home and away?
Rob"name me our other forward attacking midfielders apart from Gerrard who plays more like a striker now?"

Who made him sell Keane after 6 months and leave us with the mouth watering prospect of bringing Voronin back to fill the void along with Ngog?
Rob"We all know he wasn't Benitez's choice because he wanted Barry,Keane was Parry's choice not Benitez's and Keane hardly covered himself in glory thinking he had a god given right to play every minute and then show disrespect on getting subbed shaking his head constantly,We had to recuperate the money before his money devalued even more"

Who insisted he replaced Alonso with Lucas?
Rob"No one did but he has Aqualani on his way in so he was merely covering for the time being, unfortunately Aqualani is still unfit."

Who made him sell Bellamy and keep a poor buy like Babel?
Rob"Babel was still only new at the time with the raw talent(yes I know he has disappointed) but Babel was younger and less injury prone and wasn't a nark upsetting team mates.

Who made him bring in the likes of Deggan, Dossena?
Rob"Yep I agree with you, both bad buys and mistakes but Riise had an awful season."

Who made him buy a 20ml player who will miss at Least half the season?
Rob"It was the best he could get, Rafa is practically del boy in the transfer market now,Aqualani didn't cost 20m straight up,The initial fee was 7m with instalments over the next 4 years."

And do me a favour, Don't cast up last seasons 2nd place!
it was achieved after 5 fkn years and a load of cash spent.
I expect us to be making the top 3 every season.
Rob"Why that 2nd place any other season would of won us the title and as to do with you expecting top 3 finish every season?, it doesn't matter who we have as manager no manager will get top 3 with these clowns running our club"

Ive followed LFC through the good and bad times and I'm still going,
Ive been lucky enough to see some great managers here
And believe me Rafa is NOT one of the greats!
Rob"Yep he is totally c r a p he has just a lousy European Cup to his name and an F.A Cup(you will prob tell me he is a lucky manager now) also has just given us our best ever point total in the league last season in which torres and Gerrard played about 14 times together in having the best point total against the so called big 4.NOW IF I DIDN'T HAVE ANY OF THIS TO GO OFF I WOULD THINK HE WAS A BAD MANAGER TOO PLUS THE FACT WE HAVE 2 COWBOYS RUNNING THE CLUB"

If Daggers took over tomorrow he would improve things whatever was going on behind the scenes.
Rob"I kind of agree but it would be only initially until the honeymoon period was over and then when the pressure comes will he stick it?History says no."

Rob"have your opinion I have mine but if you have the right owners at the club you will always have the stability"

by **bigmick** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:56 pm

Just a couple of points to follow on from your answer mate.

Firstly you are correct that we are a bit short of attacking midfielders other than Gerrard, but surely it is legitimate to ask who's fault that is.

Keane was Parry's choice not Rafa's?

I'm sorry I don't agree. Arguably you could say Keane was signed before Barry which was an error if that wasn't the plan, but the idea that Parry signed the player without the managers say so is palpably nonsense.

It is indeed unfortunate that Aquilani is still unfit. Is it legitimate to ask why we signed a player for "five years not five weeks" who has missed the first 1/3 of the season? Is it also unreasonable to ask whether or not the decision/gamble to go with Lucas and Masherano as a stopgap central midfield was a costly mistake?

Babel, Dossena and Deggan were mistakes, fair enough.

Aquilani's fee, like most top players fees includes "add ons" which pertain to how we go in the next few years. In excess of 15 million Euros of the 20 million Euro fee though is payable by the end of THIS season. It is an urban myth that the fee is made up of "add ons".

by **roberto green** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:21 pm

bigmick wrote:Just a couple of points to follow on from your answer mate.

Firstly you are correct that we are a bit short of attacking midfielders other than Gerrard, but surely it is legitimate to ask who's fault that is.

Keane was Parry's choice not Rafa's? I'm sorry I don't agree. Arguably you could say Keane was signed before Barry which was an error if that wasn't the plan, but the idea that Parry signed the player without the managers say so is palpably nonsense.

It is indeed unfortunate that Aquilani is still unfit. Is it legitimate to ask why we signed a player for "five years not five weeks" who has missed the first 1/3 of the season? Is it also unreasonable to ask whether or not the decision/gamble to go with Lucas and Masherano as a stopgap central midfield was a costly mistake?

Babel, Dossena and Deggan were mistakes, fair enough.

Aquilani's fee, like most top players fees includes "add ons" which pertain to how we go in the next few years. In excess of 15 million Euros of the 20 million Euro fee though is payable by the end of THIS season. It is an urban myth that the fee is made up of "add ons".

Alright Mick in regards to "to go with Lucas and Masherano as a stopgap central midfield was a costly mistake?" He never had another choice really did he.We could go back to he should of never of signed Lucas in the first place but when these lads are so young there is no telling how they will turn out.

With Parry signing Keane I wasn't saying he signed him himself he just put the moves out for it because he didn't want to waste the money on Barry.we know how bad he was with his movement (slow movement in the transfer market, one of the main reasons he is not our chairmen now)

Regards to add on fees he had to find the best value for money he could afford and 7m plus add ons for a player he knew once was fit could be worth much more.

Its just a pity he couldn't have Xabi Alonso fee £30m (by the way paid upfront as part as the conditions he could go)to spend on a midfielder who was fit,ready and able.

Also whatever happened to Keane's money?

I just wish yous lot would wake up to the fact that it's not our managers fault and we have 2 owners who could sell our biggest assets and leave our club in financial ruin.

by **killerp** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:31 pm

I wonder what everyone will say if Rafa risks Aquilani for the next game in the Champions League?

by **teamleader1** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:35 pm

roberto green wrote:.

Alright lad you have your opinion and I'll answer your questions now as follows seeing you couldn't answer mine

So who exactly behind the scenes makes him play 2 defensive MF home and away?
Rob"name me our other forward attacking midfielders apart from Gerrard who plays more like a striker now?"

Who made him sell Keane after 6 months and leave us with the mouth watering prospect of bringing Voronin back to fill the void along with Ngog?
Rob"We all know he wasn't Benitez's choice because he wanted Barry,Keane was Parry's choice not Benitez's and Keane hardly covered himself in glory thinking he had a god given right to play every minute and then show disrespect on getting subbed shaking his head constantly,We had to recuperate the money before his money devalued even more"

Who insisted he replaced Alonso with Lucas?
Rob"No one did but he has Aqualani on his way in so he was merely covering for the time being, unfortunately Aqualani is still unfit."

Who made him sell Bellamy and keep a poor buy like Babel?
Rob"Babel was still only new at the time with the raw talent(yes I know he has disappointed) but Babel was younger and less injury prone and wasn't a nark upsetting team mates.

Who made him bring in the likes of Deggan, Dossena?
Rob"Yep I agree with you, both bad buys and mistakes but Riise had an awful season."

Who made him buy a 20ml player who will miss at Least half the season?
Rob"It was the best he could get, Rafa is practically del boy in the transfer market now,Aqualani didn't cost 20m straight up,The initial fee was 7m with instalments over the next 4 years."

And do me a favour, Don't cast up last seasons 2nd place!
it was achieved after 5 fkn years and a load of cash spent.
I expect us to be making the top 3 every season.
Rob"Why that 2nd place any other season would of won us the title and as to do with you expecting top 3 finish every season?, it doesn't matter who we have as manager no manager will get top 3 with these clowns running our club"

Ive followed LFC through the good and bad times and I'm still going,
Ive been lucky enough to see some great managers here
And believe me Rafa is NOT one of the greats!
Rob"Yep he is totally c r a p he has just a lousy European Cup to his name and an F.A Cup(you will prob tell me he is a lucky manager now) also has just given us our best ever point total in the league last season in which torres and Gerrard played about 14 times together in having the best point total against the so called big 4.NOW IF I DIDN'T HAVE ANY OF THIS TO GO OFF I WOULD THINK HE WAS A BAD MANAGER TOO PLUS THE FACT WE HAVE 2 COWBOYS RUNNING THE CLUB"

If Daggers took over tomorrow he would improve things whatever was going on behind the scenes.
Rob"I kind of agree but it would be only initially until the honeymoon period was over and then when the pressure comes will he stick it?History says no."

Rob"have your opinion I have mine but if you have the right owners at the club you will always have the stability"[/quote]
It might be a bit off the wall, But would it have been a bit to risky to go and buy a decent striker and drop SG back into his best position, thus replacing class with class once Alonso went? or is 442 unacceptable in Rafas world?

As for Keane do you really believe Rafa didn't want him?
Rafas nose was put out because the board were willing to pay the extra for him and not Barry, so as usual if Rafa doesn't get the last word he holds a grudge
He treated Keane badly.

Babel has looked a busted flush for a while now and in my opinion Bellamy gives more in one game than he does in half a dozen

Dossena, didnte we have Aurelio and Insua in the wings at LB?
Deggan not even good enough as cover

Aqualani was an extravagance that we couldnte afford, we needed to hit the ground running, not play a makeshift side until the seasons main signings comes in well into the season
It just dosnte make sense

And second is second!

Oh and I dont think its to far fetched to think that Mash will do one at the end of the season and Lucas is Rafas first choice to take his place, because in his words 'hes a FANTASTIC player!

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:38 pm

Id like to ask a question here , :laugh:

How many of you think We would of paid that amount of money if Aqualini wasnt injured, not a chance, Although i dont know much about the lad when we signed him i did read on an Italian place that when he was playing well for Roma an got called up by the National team a bid of 30 million wasput in for him by another Italian team, ill try an find it again ,who it was, But they knocked them back,
So im believing here its a smart move by Rafa an in the long run we may have grabbed ourselves a bargain, we will see :;):

by **Penguins** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:46 pm

It is so nice to still see the logic of "spending shedloads" by selling for example Torres for 80 million and buy players for 90 million. That seems to be too hard for most fans

Why whine about Keane? Except the 3-4 million lost the money was obviouly borrowed from the owners anyway since the money was gone after he was sold.

And I still firmyle believe that with the crazy valuations that was made on players thanks to Real and City last summer meant that quality cost a premium. We lost quality in Alonso and despite getting 30 upfront there was a snowball chance in hell Rafa was going to be allowed to spend that, forget the keane money. So with that summer he needed "Alonso quality", everyone demanded Alonso quality and the owners I believed
forced him not to be able to pay more than 10 upfront at most. Que, Aquilani was one of the few available since he was
injured which lowered the price and made the payments possible.
The owners are sitting safe and sound while Rafa can't win no matter what he does.
He gets a inferior replacement for 10-15 million who goes into the teams and Rafa gets fried for making the team weaker and he buys quality but we have to wait and he gets fried.
No win situation!

by **Penguins** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:49 pm

Wouldn't surprise me much that Aquilani's downpayment next summer will affect the transfer budget next summer along with
wage increases

And for some I guess it wouldn't matter if West Ham spent more or had a better team on paper, top 3 is always the minimum.
Clueless, is what I call that...

It all comes down to if you believe the table 03/04 and 04/05 lied or if you think the CL win 05 was made possible with the superb talent of Traore, Smicer, Baros etc and we were close to winning the league with just 1 or 2 additions...

by **teamleader1** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:49 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Id like to ask a question here , How many of you think We would of paid that amount of money if Aqualini wasnt injured, not a chance, Although i dont know much about the lad when we signed him i did read on an Italian place that when he was playing well for Roma an got called up by the National team a bid of 30 million wasput in for him by another Italian team, ill try an find it again ,who it was, But they knocked them back,
So im believing here its a smart move by Rafa an in the long run we may have grabbed ourselves a bargain, we will see

Obviously we got him cheaper because he needed an op and might never get right
By all accounts hes a very good player, but as I said we needed to hit the ground running
Its not about the players ability

by **Rush Job** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:57 pm

bigmick wrote:Aquilani's fee, like most top players fees includes "add ons" which pertain to how we go in the next few years. In excess of 15 million Euros of the 20 million Euro fee though is payable by the end of THIS season. It is an urban myth that the fee is made up of "add ons".

Whats your source for that mick? Ive heard about ten different storys and it seems people are picking the one that suits their opinion best.
Although I wouldnt be supprised because 20m is on the cheap side for him, you can say yeah but he hasnt played a game yet but when we signed him I`m pritty sure the doctors were saying october and thats what the papers went with too.
Unfortunatly for us its dragged on when we really could have done with him.

by **roberto green** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:58 pm

teamleader1 wrote:It might be a bit off the wall, But would it have been a bit to risky to go and buy a decent striker and drop SG back into his best position, thus replacing class with class once Alonso went? or is 442 unacceptable in Rafas world?

As for Keane do you really believe Rafa didn't want him?
Rafas nose was put out because the board were willing to pay the extra for him and not Barry, so as usual if Rafa doesn't get the last word he holds a grudge
He treated Keane badly.

Babel has looked a busted flush for a while now and in my opinion Bellamy gives more in one game than he does in half a dozen

Dossena, didnte we have Aurelio and Insua in the wings at LB?
Deggan not even good enough as cover

Aqualani was an extravagance that we couldnte afford, we needed to hit the ground running, not play a makeshift side until the seasons main signings comes in well into the season
It just dosnte make sense

And second is second!

If you look back over the topics from just before the season started, I started one saying drop gerrard back and buy another striker with Alonso money, not that we got to spend it, but with Gerrard/Torres combing so well last season I thought Rafa wanted them to keep it going and hopefully there bad luck injury wise would be over.

You kind of contradict yourself over the Keane scenario because your asking me do I really think Rafa didn't want him (as If to apply he did) but then at the the bottom of the paragraph just cos he had to buy Keane and not Barry he hold a grudge "applying he didn't want him"

As for treating him badly, Keane never done himself any favours he didn't have the right attitude,never scored enough goals and winged if he was subbed.

Also Aqualani was probably the best value midfielder we could get for that money ok it hasn't paid off yet but would you really want another average midfielder straight away or wait for something more prosperitus.What difference would a Scott Parker lol make when we have average midfeilders (Lucas) already here.Rafa couldn't of really done any better.

by **roberto green** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:04 am

Penguins wrote:He gets a inferior replacement for 10-15 million who goes into the teams and Rafa gets fried for making the team weaker and he buys quality but we have to wait and he gets fried.
No win situation!

Well said totally inline with what I'm trying to get through to some of these egg heads

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:05 am

did i just hear A Scotty, Yeh see i knew Rafa should of listened to me :laugh:

by **Scottbot** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:42 am

NANNY RED wrote: did i just hear A Scotty, Yeh see i knew Rafa should of listened to me

i'n not sure Scotty Parker is what we need/needed Sange, decent player but he's another very defensive player, combative and hardworking like the 2 lads who have manning our engine room all season. I would have taken Jimmy Bullard or Danny Murphy to fill Alonso's spot until Aquaman was fit to go.

Liverpool FC Forum

RAFA BENITEZ LEAVES LIVERPOOL - Official Thread, includes merged threads

Who is online