Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:51 am

I've been racking my brains about this for a day or two now. I think it's vital when you approach such subjects that you disregard any notions that the manager is an idiot, because he isn't. Equally, if he is gradually easing Xabi towards the exit door, it won't be a decision which he's taken lightly or without good reason. So why is it? Speaking as someone who has many times been told that a dildo seller by definition has no clue, I accept that I don't know the inner workings of Rafa's mind, but a little specuation wouldn't hurt. If nothing else it'll pass the time and might even allow me to better understand a decision and a move which seems at first pretty baffling.

Firstly, a couple of cards on the table. I think Xabi needed to step out of the pocket more often, and he's done that this season to great effect. "The pocket" is that little area in front of the centre halves but behind where a normal midfielder would go. It's a fairly comfortable place to play as the opposition are by and large fairly happy to let you play there without closing you down. The problems with playing there if like Xabi you don't have any pace, is that the oposition centre forward can squeeze you towards their midfielders, and you can find yourself trying to operate within a box which has ever diminishing sides. Anyway without going into too much, I think he needed to advance 20 or 30 yards up the pitch from time to time in order to make himself more effective. He's done it and I think he was the best midfielder in the Premiership (central that is) in the season just gone.

So again, why would Rafa be considering accepting offers then for a player who by all accounts doesn't want to leave?
What has the manager seen that we haven't, what does he know that we don't, and what are his plans for the future which seemingly don't include our best central midfielder now Gerrard doesn't play there anymore?

Here's my guess:

I think that Rafa is looking at our number of draws over the last couple fo seasons, and realises as we all do that it is a huge problem. I think it's fair to say that if we again draw 10 or 11 matches or whatever it was, we'll never be Champions in England. The problem is that teams like the Mancs and Chelsea are just too efficient at rolling over the smaller teams. Everton finished fifth and Villa sixth, and it's already at the stage where if you are playing either of them even Away, you really are looking to win the game. So obviously he knows the draws are a problem, and I think replacing Alonso is part of the solution in his eyes.

I think Rafa thinks he could do with a double figure goalscorer from central midfield, and it obviously ain't going to be Masherano unless we are talking career goals. I think he is looking back to Baracka or whatever he was called at Valencia (top player too) and considering that if we had someone similar (a Scholes in his prime perhaps) then we would really be onto something.

As for Xabi, he has moved out of the pocket with great effect. If I was playing against us, such has been his improvement that I'd man mark him. So far, nobody is doing that from what I've seen as they concentrate on Gerrard, but I'd man mark Alonso for sure. I'd sit my midfielders in and around him, diminish his influence, snap at his heels, decrese his availability for the pass from the centre halves. Why? Because everything we do currently comes through Xabi, he's the conductor of the orchestra.

And if they do that, what happens? Well my guess is that Xabi would be easier to squeeze than a Gerrard. We don't move the ball quickly or fluently enough to be able to pass it around barriers Barcelona style, and nor does Alonso posess the necessary gears to be able to get out of the line of fire like a Gerrard. Xabi would probably find himself coming deeper and deeper to get posession, back into the pocket, back next to Masherano, and back into being squeezed by the centre forward.

So perhaps that's it. Perhaps Rafa is thinking ahead, guaging that although Xabi has been excellent this season, perhaps opposition teams will be as effective at curtailing that as they were the last time he had an excellent period. Perhaps he thinks that selling now is absolutely maximising his resale value. Maybe that ten goal a season central midfielder is the missing piece of the jigsaw, who knows.

For me, I wouldn't look where he's looking for the hole in the dyke. I'd look at a really top class centre half, which would free Xabi up to go even further forward, would release Masherano to go on even more mad dog rampages, and would mean that on more occasions we'd only need to score once rather than twice. A really good centre half might even score four or five goals himself.

I think though the moemory of Barracka is in Rafa's mind, and neither of his current central midfielders fit the mould.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:50 am

bigmick wrote:Speaking as someone who has many times been told that a dildo seller by definition has no clue,

so dry mick

I actually just had some pepsi max come out of my nose when I read this part :laugh:

by **aCe'** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:51 am

mmm.... hahaha... guess ill read that tomorrow, but for now...

on whats Rafa thinking , im guessing he wants to go back to playing 2 upfront with Gerrard back in the middle... Kuyt down the right in a 4-4-2 is going to be a liability though so selling Alonso to me atleast woul mean that we'd have to sign a TOP forward and a very good winger at the very least to have any chance on improving on our current setup...

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:52 am

I would be surprised if Rafa still "wanted" to sell Alonso. I think its more a case of burned bridges and ruffled feathers myself, plus the all important cash for transfer funds.

Last season it didn't surprise me (too much anyway) when Rafa was willing to offload Xabi, but after the season Xabi has just had I was surprised that Rafa didn't come out much earlier and stronger in saying he didn't want to sell him.(Like he did with Masch and Torres).

If I had to guess at a footballing reason for Rafa to be seemingly willing to listen to offers, I would think its that while Xabi can play great passes out wide he rarely really hurts teams by playing the killer pass. A 40 yard pass out to the wing is not quite the same as the killer 15 yard pass behind the CB and into the strikers stride. Which is why I wanted Diego and would take Tevez if it came to the crunch.

Personally I think Alonso's good form has been not only down to him coming forward more but also the fact that for most of the season we have played with a winger and without Agger. The winger gives Alonso more options and the lack of a genuine ball playing CB makes it more acceptable when Alonso drops deep to receive the ball.

When I first said that Alonso was a deep lying playmaker and not a genuine defensive midfielder a few years ago, a few people on here seemed either not to have heard of the expression (Bigmick

) or thought I was crazy. Funny how most seem to accept it now.

I think we should be looking to build on last season by strengthening where we are weakest, not selling players from where we are strongest. I do accept that if the money can't be brought in from elsewhere it has to be found somewhere, and while I would like to see Babel sold for £20million, in truth I think we would be lucky to get £8million for him (if we could find someone to take him)

Personally I wouldn't sell Alonso, but I don't accept that he is as important as some on here seem to think.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:32 am

Interesting theory BM but its not Rafa who's wanting to sell, its Xabi wanting to leave for reasons only known to himself.
His wife? The palava last summer?

Rafa said yesterday he is a key player one of the spine of the team and he does NOT want to sell him.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:34 am

but ciggy, rafa said he never wanted to sell keane either. I think we have to take what rafa is saying with a pinch of salt. it will become clear who is doing what based on any pay out. if alonso asked to go his cntract will not be paid, if we are selling him against his will then his contract will be paid.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:04 am

peewee wrote:but ciggy, rafa said he never wanted to sell keane either. I think we have to take what rafa is saying with a pinch of salt. it will become clear who is doing what based on any pay out. if alonso asked to go his cntract will not be paid, if we are selling him against his will then his contract will be paid.

From what Ive heard its been Xabi and his agent thats been acting the goat this time and not Rafa, even Nanny said Xabi's agent has met with RM the last fortnight behind Rafa's back and he got wind of it. I cant imagine that would have gone down to well with Rafa either.

I suppose we will know within the next fortnight one way or the other because there is noway that this can drag on all summer its no good for the team and its no good for us to find a replacement at the last minute, ecspecially if Barry joins Arsenal.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:18 am

Ciggy wrote:
peewee wrote:but ciggy, rafa said he never wanted to sell keane either. I think we have to take what rafa is saying with a pinch of salt. it will become clear who is doing what based on any pay out. if alonso asked to go his cntract will not be paid, if we are selling him against his will then his contract will be paid.

From what Ive heard its been Xabi and his agent thats been acting the goat this time and not Rafa, even Nanny said Xabi's agent has met with RM the last fortnight behind Rafa's back and he got wind of it. I cant imagine that would have gone down to well with Rafa either.

I suppose we will know within the next fortnight one way or the other because there is noway that this can drag on all summer its no good for the team and its no good for us to find a replacement at the last minute, ecspecially if Barry joins Arsenal.

I suppose alonso has become hot property again with the season he has had, added to the fact we tried to offload him last season I wouldnt be surprised in alonso has said he wants to leave, and all the better for alonso to stick two fingers up to rafa based on how he was treated last summer,

like "oh, now you want me, last season you wanted me sold so you could buy some clogger, well you can fecko offo senor benitez"

by **Ciggy** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:27 am

peewee wrote:I suppose alonso has become hot property again with the season he has had, added to the fact we tried to offload him last season I wouldnt be surprised in alonso has said he wants to leave, and all the better for alonso to stick two fingers up to rafa based on how he was treated last summer,

like "oh, now you want me, last season you wanted me sold so you could buy some clogger, well you can fecko offo senor benitez"

True, however Alonso had two poor seasons ok he was injured for the majority of last season but he was poor by his own standards at times he was standing around in a day dream and players where running and skipping past him.
This season hasnt been the case.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:41 am

Ciggy wrote:
peewee wrote:I suppose alonso has become hot property again with the season he has had, added to the fact we tried to offload him last season I wouldnt be surprised in alonso has said he wants to leave, and all the better for alonso to stick two fingers up to rafa based on how he was treated last summer,

like "oh, now you want me, last season you wanted me sold so you could buy some clogger, well you can fecko offo senor benitez"

True, however Alonso had two poor seasons ok he was injured for the majority of last season but he was poor by his own standards at times he was standing around in a day dream and players where running and skipping past him.
This season hasnt been the case.

agreed, I as one of his biggest critics the season we tried to sell him

by **maguskwt** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:40 pm

I saw alot of 'squeezing' in that original post...

... must have something to do with that 'dildo seller' profession...

.... j/k good post... if it's true that we are indeed looking for a more attacking midfielder, where does that leave gerrard? Is he forever to abandon his 'midfielder' tag and don his 'striker' jersey? As much as Gerrard is a great great player, he does at times give you headache in terms of building a team. Because his best position is just behind torres right now with the freedom to roam left and right. But is he a striker? no. Is he a creative playmaker type attacking midfielder like robinho, kaka, etc? not really. His game is more direct and relies on his powerful runs, powerful shots as well as good passes. I have doubts though as to whether he will be this successful if he played along side another striker other than torres. Him and torres just seem to have this telepatic understanding. So yeah if we're going for another midfielder, are we then to say that we're not gonna buy another striker?

by **Fauxy** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:07 pm

Gahh everytime i read this forum i get more and more worried that Alonso might leave :sniffle

Lets look on the bright side, IF he leaves we would then have another 20+ million to spend on top class players, maybe even Tevez.

And Lucas is twice the player Alonso will ever be anyways so good riddance

by **Sabre** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:28 pm

As someone has pointed out, Rafa doesn't seem to be wanting to get rid of Xabi. But as the thread starter has correctly pointed out, a bit of speculation doesn't hurt.

For me the best line of Bigmick is the first one.

I've been racking my brains about this for a day or two now. I think it's vital when you approach such subjects that you disregard any notions that the manager is an idiot, because he isn't

I really think this is a pertinent comment, because that's often the approach many fans take on Rafa's decissions, not only in his buy/sell policy but everything.

Spot on that comment.

But I suspect Mick's main point wasn't that one

, and he preffers to wander a bit about football ideas around Xabi. Which is nice.

The rest of the post have some points I agree and some other I disagree. Taken the post as a whole, I disagree it.

I agree that Xabi's role has been less defensive, and he has gone out of the pocket more often. I remember the same poster requesting that, and he was right on that.

The reason of Xabi's great season has been that, and the other following important factors:

* He hadn't to stop his form thrice due to injuries, he has enjoyed a continuous game. Fabio Aurelio has enjoyed this continuous game aswell this season and that explains aswell his best season with a red shirt

* Alonso's not only have enjoyed less rigidness in his position, Alonso's been benefitted of a more attacking approach of Rafa AS A WHOLE. The team as a whole has been more attacking and less rigid, and I'd bet 100 pounds that Mascherano for instance has tried a lot more long shots this year than the last.

* Alonso's been beneffited aswell of players like Riera with a good selection of "what I'll do next". Alonso with Babel beside him is less Alonso.

About the speculation of what would be Rafa's real reasons to offload Xabi, I disagree. It's an interesting speculation but doesn't seem likely in my mind.

I agree Rafa would like to have someone like a younger Scholes or Ruben Baraja. I disagree Xabi will ever be a player of this mold. Both players were comfortable running with the ball to another position of the midfield. Xabi will run only with space and deliver the ball sooner rather than later.

That is, one thing is to ask Xabi to get out of the pocket more often. Right. Another thing is him to become a player with features a younger Scholes or Baraja (good comparison this, Baraja was kind of a Spanish Scholes) had. No, I don't think Xabi has this or he's price would be even more expensive.

by **aCe'** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:46 pm

Im not sure where this discussion is headed but anyways...

Lets just start off by saying that IF we end up losing Alonso, it wouldnt be the end of the world... Theres a good chance that selling Alonso would only help in us becoming a better team in terms of attacking play IF Rafa goes out and bring in the right players and figures out a winning setup...

Two big IFs but it all comes down to Rafa and what he decides... I dont think Alonso wants to leave, i dont think Rafa would want to sell Alonso if we had enough funds, but given that we dont, i think that if Alonso does eventually leave, it would be because Rafa made it clear to him that he is replacable.

Now back to the whole discussion about Alonso and his role in the side... To me, Alonsos main role is controlling the pace of the game, linking the play and providing defensive cover to the back 4.... Mascherano does pretty much the same things, except his added mobility allows to pop up and cover more ground on the pitch, albeit with less game intelligence and average link up play... To me, i'd much rather have Alonso in the side than Mascherano, but Rafa sees it differently and im sure theres a point to be made about each player and what they add to the side...

To put things in context, you look at a Chelsea side that has Essien as one of 3 in the middle of the park, a manutd side that has Carrick in a 2man midfield pairing and it seems like different setups could work just as effectively if carried out in the right manner... to me, Essien is probably one of the best around... better than Alonso, better than Mascherano, and offers more at both ends of the pitch than both... Carrick is more of an Alonso type of player, except hes better at carrying the ball and poppping up at attacking positions, and thus offers more of an attacking threat than Alonso does... Point is, they can both do Alonso's job in our current setup and it would work just as well if not better as far as im concerned... Before people stat jumping on my back, im not saying we should go out and sign either of them, im not saying that Carrick is the better player, im just saying that losing Alonso might not be as big a mistake as some seem to suggest IF Rafa plays it right...

Alonsos role or his position in the side are not a problem as far as i can tell... him not scoring double figures in the league every season isnt a problem, i wouldnt think. Our problem has mostly to do with our forward play... our creativity down the final third, and that isnt Alonsos territory .. Hes benefitied from having Riera in the side... Picking a pass to a player who knows how and where to position himself to recieve a good ball has added to Alonsos game this season as Sabre has pointed out... Maybe we should focus on replacing the attacking players we have with better quality... the Kuyts, Rieras, Babels and Benayouns all while being good player, can be improved upon...

by **tubby** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:50 pm

Balague: Alonso to Madrid could be concluded in weeks

Esteemed journalist Guillem Balague believes that Liverpool midfielder Xabi Alonso still remains a priority for Real Madrid despite Rafa Benitez recently insisting the player is not for sale.

Writing on his website guillembalague.com, the Sky Sports pundit said: “Xabi Alonso is a definite Real Madrid target and Rafa Benitez is aware of that fact.”

“After 5 years at Anfield, the player could be feeling that now is the right time to return to Spain – plus Benitez could certainly make use of the €25 million or so he will receive for Alonso in the transfer market this summer.”

He added: “There is still much work to be done, but if it were to happen, I am under the impression that this deal could be concluded relatively quickly and be finalized within the next three weeks or so.”

Rafa Benitez recently dismissed increasing speculation that Alonso would be leaving the club, and the man allegedly lined up as his successor Athletic Bilbao’s Javi Martinez, revealed today that neither his club or agent had received a offer from the Merseyside club.

Alonso continues to be linked with a move away from Liverpool, although Rafa Benitez’s recent comments would suggest the Spaniard is definitely not for sale.

Benitez said: “The situation is clear, we do not want to sell our best players and that includes Xabi.”

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Xabi alonso. if it's true we're selling him... - What could be rafa's thinking?

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