Liverpool FC Forum

by **big al** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:24 pm

Leon, thanks for this glaringly obvious point. Who else is there? I have joint in many of these debates but I'll stick to my point that I beleive Rafa is gone. Not because of anything to do with the football on the pitch but because he has played with egos of the two American owners. They have the long knives out for him. unfortunately he has played into their hands all season with strange decisions. The fact is winning the F.A. cup may have been good enough to save Ferguson all those years ago but it was never going to be enough to save Rafa and he knows that. He has a strategy and I for one believe that if given the chance he'll get it right. You all talk about Shankly, as do I, but even Bill took 3 years to win the 2nd division and another 2 to win the 1st. Shankly had to rebuild, he was constantly at odds with the directors who had failed to give him the job in 1951. What Shankly did is what Benitez needs to learn and that's that you can win the league by playing just your best 14 players. I personaly don't care if Rafa changes his team as long as he plays the same players in the league. So many people here complain and moan about the stupist things. Managing a football club is not as easy as some here think (a result of playing to many management games on their PC I guess) Rafa is building a club not just a team, take a closer look, look at the changes at the youth system, the changes at the reserve level. He may appear to be inept when it comes to the premiership title and his rotation system is failing but in the end if he wins the Champions league he'll once again have the last laugh. Sadly however I am worried he won't in which case he's out and no amount of MOANING OR GROANING will change that only winning a trophy in Moscow will save him now.

by **Boocity** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:25 pm

lakes10 wrote:You could say that Rafa has done nothing for the club if you take on board stuff said by players that have now left the club.

Look at the year we won the CL, we ended up 5th in the prem and out of the fa cup.
we got into the final by a goal that never was and at half time in the final we was 3-0 down.

Hamann still feels that us coming back and winning the CL had nothing to do with Rafa, he says it was down to two of our players picking the team up at half time, the two players being Jamie Carragher and Steven Gerrard.
he said they gave the team belief that that could turn it around when Rafa was just standing there saying nothing.

He still got us to the final that year and last year as well.

by **lakes10** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:30 pm

Boocity wrote:
lakes10 wrote:You could say that Rafa has done nothing for the club if you take on board stuff said by players that have now left the club.

Look at the year we won the CL, we ended up 5th in the prem and out of the fa cup.
we got into the final by a goal that never was and at half time in the final we was 3-0 down.

Hamann still feels that us coming back and winning the CL had nothing to do with Rafa, he says it was down to two of our players picking the team up at half time, the two players being Jamie Carragher and Steven Gerrard.
he said they gave the team belief that that could turn it around when Rafa was just standing there saying nothing.

He still got us to the final that year and last year as well.

yep as i say he is a great CL manager but that is all.

Right now i find it hard to pick who should take over the job, i would always like to see some old liverpool boys come back into the fold, but that is not going to happen.

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:31 pm

lakes, it is incredibly unfair to put the losses on the manager and the wins on the players

And to answer some above acusations, Rafa has a VERY strong history of selling his mediocre buys just look at this summer with Bellamy, Mark Gonzalez, and Pelletta leaving. You can't say that well he didn't sell Kuyt, because he was our leading scorer in the prem last campaign. Rafa keeps playing him just like he kept playing Crouch during his goal drought, he knows that he is capable of quality and if he could just get a goal against some "weaker" opposition it could increase his confidence, and the more confident strikers he has at his disposale the more lethal the team will be

by **lakes10** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:33 pm

stmichael wrote:I'd still say what I've thought all season - give him another year after this one but with an ultimatum in the summer that if things don't get a lot better NEXT season (2008-9) then he'll be on his bike the following year.

That said, I'm starting to look forward to next season with more trepidation than anticipation at the moment.

What I DON'T get is how far Rafa managed to take us, then he got a hefty injection of cash in the summer (I don't care what anyone says, picking up Torres and Babel - two of the hottest young strikers in the world - is a massive step forward on anything we've been signing for years, not to mention Benayoun and Lucas) and suddenly things have gone the other way. OK, there's been the debacle of the Yanks all year but even so, I had the impression that Rafa was the kinda guy who could stand on his own two feet and not give a what was going on around him. Maybe he's more sensitive than he appears?

The cup run has been nothing short of dismal and we've flopped badly in the league, and the football we're playing at the moment is mostly pretty poor - but we all KNOW what we're capable of with Rafa in charge and you just don't 'lose' that tactical brilliance overnight. We'll pick up - but I wish it was sooner rather than later.

i think it easy to see why it turned bad, the players got fed up being moved around on the bench all the time, he lost the players and they just got fed up with him and not trying for him.

by **Reg** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:34 pm

Big Niall wrote:
Reg wrote:We have to be realistic no matter how much frustration there is.

First priority is to change the owners.
Second is to consider Benetiz´s position. The club cant handle 2 changes of ownership and a new manager in a 12 month period.

Benetiz to stay, G&H out, then get rid of all the mediocre players who are holding us back.

First priority should be to get a new manager.

The owner thing is just deflecting from a poor underachieving manager.

As for the mediocre playes - Rafa bought them !

I dont understand all this, Houllier obviously bought a load of poor players, where Rafa´s made mistakes he´s also offloaded them quick, however his remaining mediocre players are there because of the limited funds he has had available.

You dont just sack a manager becuase you tumbled out of the FA Cup or we´d need a new manager every year wouldnt we?

Lads....... please.........ffs........ Liverpool Football Club is not a video game or a reality show. Its a business and a very fickle one at that and it takes time, dedication and a lot of skill to go from 4th place to top spot.

Come on guys, lets take off the rose tinted glasses and get real! :buttrock

by **Sabre** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:35 pm

big al wrote:Leon, thanks for this glaringly obvious point. Who else is there? I have joint in many of these debates but I'll stick to my point that I beleive Rafa is gone. Not because of anything to do with the football on the pitch but because he has played with egos of the two American owners. They have the long knives out for him. unfortunately he has played into their hands all season with strange decisions. The fact is winning the F.A. cup may have been good enough to save Ferguson all those years ago but it was never going to be enough to save Rafa and he knows that. He has a strategy and I for one believe that if given the chance he'll get it right. You all talk about Shankly, as do I, but even Bill took 3 years to win the 2nd division and another 2 to win the 1st. Shankly had to rebuild, he was constantly at odds with the directors who had failed to give him the job in 1951. What Shankly did is what Benitez needs to learn and that's that you can win the league by playing just your best 14 players. I personaly don't care if Rafa changes his team as long as he plays the same players in the league. So many people here complain and moan about the stupist things. Managing a football club is not as easy as some here think (a result of playing to many management games on their PC I guess) Rafa is building a club not just a team, take a closer look, look at the changes at the youth system, the changes at the reserve level. He may appear to be inept when it comes to the premiership title and his rotation system is failing but in the end if he wins the Champions league he'll once again have the last laugh. Sadly however I am worried he won't in which case he's out and no amount of MOANING OR GROANING will change that only winning a trophy in Moscow will save him now.

Then Rafa is doomed and if they're waiting for that the owners should sáck him sooner rather than later. Winning the CL is very very difficult.

Despite puroresu thinks Rafa is a CL manager and not a premiership manager, the game is actually the same. Off sides, goals, the quality of the opposition counts and all that. The fact of reaching two finals as of late has made us believe reaching there is easier than it seems.

If Rafa is to stay, it's because they really trust him to bring this ship to a good harbour. If they're waiting for Moscow to sáck him, then they should have sacked him already. I don't think we'll be in Moscow this year. Lots of things should change.

BTW Big Al, I didn't know you well as a poster, but since you came back a few months ago, I must remind you to stay, good poster.

by **lakes10** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:35 pm

JoeTerp wrote:lakes, it is incredibly unfair to put the losses on the manager and the wins on the players

And to answer some above acusations, Rafa has a VERY strong history of selling his mediocre buys just look at this summer with Bellamy, Mark Gonzalez, and Pelletta leaving. You can't say that well he didn't sell Kuyt, because he was our leading scorer in the prem last campaign. Rafa keeps playing him just like he kept playing Crouch during his goal drought, he knows that he is capable of quality and if he could just get a goal against some "weaker" opposition it could increase his confidence, and the more confident strikers he has at his disposale the more lethal the team will be

i am not saying that mate, i am saying that Hamann feels that we won the CL final due to two of our players and not the manager.

by **Boocity** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:37 pm

JoeTerp wrote:lakes, it is incredibly unfair to put the losses on the manager and the wins on the players

And to answer some above acusations, Rafa has a VERY strong history of selling his mediocre buys just look at this summer with Bellamy, Mark Gonzalez, and Pelletta leaving. You can't say that well he didn't sell Kuyt, because he was our leading scorer in the prem last campaign. Rafa keeps playing him just like he kept playing Crouch during his goal drought, he knows that he is capable of quality and if he could just get a goal against some "weaker" opposition it could increase his confidence, and the more confident strikers he has at his disposale the more lethal the team will be

Rafa bought these players in the first place, should he be applauded for getting rid of them a year later? there is either something wrong with our scouting or his judgement needs a lot to be desired.

With regards to Kuyt, I remember watching him at the world cup in Germany and can honestly say I had reservations then as to if he could score goals in a superior league, in the wc he looked so out of his depth

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:43 pm

in the world cup he was deployed out wide I believe. Lots of people mentioned this immediately after his signing.

No manager is going to be flawless in his buys because there is inherent risk in every buy, especially international ones, and those are the only ones that usually make financial sense because why would one english club want to sell their better players to a rival team? If they are getting paid well above the odds they will.

And Rafa has made plenty of really good buys, a lot of them many people hadn't heard of

by **big al** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:46 pm

Thanks sabre I'll try to stay around but the difficulty is I like a good debate not being called an idiot by people who disagree with you. What do you think about this theory.
That the deal is done Mourinho has been approached but can't take over until the end of the season(tied into a clause by Chelsea, apparently part of his £10m payoff) That Rafa will be given to end of season no point replacing with anyone else so that's why theyre waiting. Hicks and Gillett don't have an option as their man cant take over to June. Rafa will only survive if he wins the champions league and even then he might still go, take a job at Madrid and appear not to be sacked. Wheels within wheels.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:46 pm

Bammo wrote:
Bammo wrote:Here's a question for those asking for Mourinho:

Do you think he can win us the Premiership if he only gets £20m-£30m total to spend?

Anyone willing to answer this?

I think he can, he knows how to get the best out of players and create a good team spirit. I still believe we have a very good team with some quality players that would benefit from Mourinho.

Maybe I am wrong, and he may require more money, I don't think he will spend almost £150million and be out of the league without a challenge every year though.

If mourinho, or whoever comes in gives us genuine progress every season I will be happy, but I expect with the team we have and the motivational skills Mourinho seems to have it might not be too long a wait before the titles back where it belongs.

by **Boocity** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:47 pm

I agree he has made some excellent buys but they have been the exception and not the rule.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:50 pm

big al wrote:Thanks sabre I'll try to stay around but the difficulty is I like a good debate not being called an idiot by people who disagree with you. What do you think about this theory.
That the deal is done Mourinho has been approached but can't take over until the end of the season(tied into a clause by Chelsea, apparently part of his £10m payoff) That Rafa will be given to end of season no point replacing with anyone else so that's why theyre waiting. Hicks and Gillett don't have an option as their man cant take over to June. Rafa will only survive if he wins the champions league and even then he might still go, take a job at Madrid and appear not to be sacked. Wheels within wheels.

That or very similar has been going around for a while Al. Supposedly Ancellotti (Milan ) is going to Barca, Rafa is cut and dried for Milan and Mourinho is just waiting his call from Liverpool.

Unfortunately in football things are seldom as easy as that, so I doubt everything/anything is actually sorted

by **puroresu** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:51 pm

Reg wrote:
Big Niall wrote:
Reg wrote:We have to be realistic no matter how much frustration there is.

First priority is to change the owners.
Second is to consider Benetiz´s position. The club cant handle 2 changes of ownership and a new manager in a 12 month period.

Benetiz to stay, G&H out, then get rid of all the mediocre players who are holding us back.

First priority should be to get a new manager.

The owner thing is just deflecting from a poor underachieving manager.

As for the mediocre playes - Rafa bought them !

I dont understand all this, Houllier obviously bought a load of poor players, where Rafa´s made mistakes he´s also offloaded them quick, however his remaining mediocre players are there because of the limited funds he has had available.

You dont just sack a manager becuase you tumbled out of the FA Cup or we´d need a new manager every year wouldnt we?

Lads....... please.........ffs........ Liverpool Football Club is not a video game or a reality show. Its a business and a very fickle one at that and it takes time, dedication and a lot of skill to go from 4th place to top spot.

Come on guys, lets take off the rose tinted glasses and get real!

Its not just about the FA cup. Many of us were calling for a change way before the game on saturday.

Liverpool FC Forum

So who do you want to replace him ?

Who is online