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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Ciggy » Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:51 am

Rafa revolts

By seeing through the bluster of the club's new owners, writes Dion Fanning, Rafael Benitez could be Liverpool's real saviour


http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/rafa-revolts-1269774.html

It was a good week for Rafael Benitez. And, as a result, it was a good week for Liverpool Football Club. Last week, Rafael Benitez's warnings about the men who employ him and run the club were, at least partly, grasped by all.

Benitez has been misjudged, underestimated and written off by many who shape opinion on English football. He doesn't play the media game, but he understands it. Last week, the football world recognised what Benitez was the first to comprehend about Tom Hicks and George Gillett: that they posed a serious threat to his desire to manage a football club properly and, as a result, they threatened the existence of the club as it has been run for 50 years.

Benitez avoids :censored:: he doesn't indulge in it and he is not influenced by it. Last May after Liverpool lost a European Cup final they would have won if he had been allowed to sign the players he had identified the previous summer, Benitez called on the new owners to act. "We talk and talk but we never finish," Benitez, downcast and depressed, remarked in Athens. Tom Hicks' private response was swift: he wanted to fire the manager.

It was the first sign of American edginess. Benitez had strayed a little too close to the truth. In TV interviews before the final, Gillett and Hicks appeared consummate PR men. Gillett produced some dollars, then some euros to illustrate his point that they would be backing the manager. When the manager looked for more than the few quid in their pocket, they wanted him sacked.

Last November, Benitez's private frustrations turned to a public explosion when he responded to a private message from Hicks and Gillett by stating publicly that he was "concentrating on coaching and training the team". Hicks would later refer to it as a pout. Friends of Benitez had warned before the manager's outburst that Benitez was "going to send a message to the world".

The world has taken some time understanding it but last week they finally did. The Liverpool Echo's Tony Barrett, in the interview which revealed the plan to appoint Jurgen Klinsmann, managed to expose the thinking of Tom Hicks and perhaps saved the club from itself or at least its owners. Benitez was wise to them last year when they refused to consider signing Kaka Kaladze and told him to concentrate on coaching. They weren't losing confidence in a manager; they were struggling to find money. If they stay and Benitez goes, there is no evidence that any successor, even Jose Mourinho, will have more money. Liverpool will be an impoverished Newcastle United and that's very poor indeed.

Last week Mark Lawrenson wrote that when Benitez gently chided the Americans for their lack of knowledge of the European transfer market, he did not go far enough. Lawrenson suggested he could have said they know nothing about football.

Hicks' comments were a stunning abandonment of the traditions he had promised to uphold. They were also self-serving and cunning. The only reason Hicks and Gillett were meeting Klinsmann last November was not, as Hicks suggested, because they were frightened Benitez would leave but because they wanted to fire him. And the only reason they wanted to fire him was because Benitez had rumbled them: they had no money and their plans for the club were dangerous.

There had been warning signs. In an interview with the American press, Hicks remarked that against Manchester United in December, Liverpool had "played tight". They did not, he claimed, play like they believed they could win. Either he had learned fast or someone was in his ear. Either way, it told of an owner thinking he knew more than he did.

The feud between Benitez and Hicks has been compared to the situation at Tottenham when the club lost faith with a manager but this is a different narrative and a different club. The distinction is not that Martin Jol won nothing while Benitez has claimed the European and FA Cups. Hicks and Gillett have abandoned Liverpool's values and they have no plan B. If their ideas for saddling the club with debt are approved and they move on to dismiss the manager in May, as Benitez expects them to do, then the club itself will be in jeopardy and a manager will be just a patsy.

Benitez is the son of a Madrid hotel owner and as a child he presumably spent many hours watching guests drawn from the business community talking :censored:. Hicks and Gillett are a new kind of businessmen, but an old-fashioned type of speculator. They are rich guys with no money who have provided one service during their 12 months in England and that is to offer an illustration of how capitalism works in the 21st century. They may soon depart with a profit of between £75m and £150m for their paper investment. Rich pickings.

But the sale of at least Hicks' share is essential if Liverpool are to survive and, if they do go, the club have Benitez to thank for exposing, firstly in May and again in November, that these were men with neither the money nor the ambition for the club he manages.

Tomorrow evening, there will be the most public display of disaffection yet from Liverpool supporters. Last November, they marched to support Benitez, now they will voice their opposition to the owners. The supporters have decided they too must adjust to the new world. Liverpool fans have always signed up to the belief that things are done "in-house". Managers were rarely booed; dissatisfaction with the board was usually kept quiet. But they too have changed.

A senior Liverpool figure during their days as England's pre-eminent club surveyed the mess last week and ruefully commented, "How can they do business like that?" Now the 'Reclaim the Kop' group is planning mass protest with chants directed at the owners and Foster Gillett, George's son, who is supposed to be the Americans' presence at the club.

Rick Parry and David Moores had the bright idea to appoint co-managers in 1998 when they gave Gerard Houllier (a man so well versed in :censored: that he could work for Hicks) and Roy Evans joint authority. Nine years on, they promoted even more dangerous lunacy when they let DIC drift out of the picture. Instead, Moores agreed to sell the club to Hicks and Gillett and Parry pushed the deal. At the time a former player, hugely respected at Anfield, was moved to ask the simple question: "How can there be two owners?"

Gillett may this week look for another partner or he may agree to back Hicks in a refinancing deal which places enormous debt on Liverpool -- something they promised not to do when they took over. If DIC come in, they will be treated as saviours, a role they were not necessarily cast in when they first agreed a deal to buy the club and their long-term commitment was questioned.

Now they are all Liverpool have got. Benitez and Parry are said to have put their differences behind them and both are united in opposing the plans of Hicks and the determination to place the debt on the club. These men who arrived eager and bright-eyed, who talked about the club's heritage and promised to learn the values of the institution they were buying and respect it, are now displaying their ignorance.

Liverpool handed over their club to men who knew nothing about football and knew a lot about bluff and bluster. Benitez realised their new frontier was a mirage in the desert. He did what he had to do. His future and the future of the club is now beyond his control.

This, it must be repeated, is not a story of a chairman losing faith in a manager. This is not Tottenham Hotspur or Chelsea. This is a manager losing faith with his owners, seeing through their promises, their false starts and computer-generated images. When the history of these days is written, last week may be viewed as the real Rafa-lution.

My god we dont half owe Rafa for exposing these two cretins.

You really do love us and the club.

Thank you.
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

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REST IN PEACE PHIL, YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.
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Postby ruskiy playmaker » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:31 am

Rafa Benitez is such a great man!  I really hope he stays here for many years.
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Postby welsh wizzard » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:48 am

Ciggy wrote:Rafa revolts

By seeing through the bluster of the club's new owners, writes Dion Fanning, Rafael Benitez could be Liverpool's real saviour


http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/rafa-revolts-1269774.html

It was a good week for Rafael Benitez. And, as a result, it was a good week for Liverpool Football Club. Last week, Rafael Benitez's warnings about the men who employ him and run the club were, at least partly, grasped by all.

Benitez has been misjudged, underestimated and written off by many who shape opinion on English football. He doesn't play the media game, but he understands it. Last week, the football world recognised what Benitez was the first to comprehend about Tom Hicks and George Gillett: that they posed a serious threat to his desire to manage a football club properly and, as a result, they threatened the existence of the club as it has been run for 50 years.

Benitez avoids :censored:: he doesn't indulge in it and he is not influenced by it. Last May after Liverpool lost a European Cup final they would have won if he had been allowed to sign the players he had identified the previous summer, Benitez called on the new owners to act. "We talk and talk but we never finish," Benitez, downcast and depressed, remarked in Athens. Tom Hicks' private response was swift: he wanted to fire the manager.

It was the first sign of American edginess. Benitez had strayed a little too close to the truth. In TV interviews before the final, Gillett and Hicks appeared consummate PR men. Gillett produced some dollars, then some euros to illustrate his point that they would be backing the manager. When the manager looked for more than the few quid in their pocket, they wanted him sacked.

Last November, Benitez's private frustrations turned to a public explosion when he responded to a private message from Hicks and Gillett by stating publicly that he was "concentrating on coaching and training the team". Hicks would later refer to it as a pout. Friends of Benitez had warned before the manager's outburst that Benitez was "going to send a message to the world".

The world has taken some time understanding it but last week they finally did. The Liverpool Echo's Tony Barrett, in the interview which revealed the plan to appoint Jurgen Klinsmann, managed to expose the thinking of Tom Hicks and perhaps saved the club from itself or at least its owners. Benitez was wise to them last year when they refused to consider signing Kaka Kaladze and told him to concentrate on coaching. They weren't losing confidence in a manager; they were struggling to find money. If they stay and Benitez goes, there is no evidence that any successor, even Jose Mourinho, will have more money. Liverpool will be an impoverished Newcastle United and that's very poor indeed.

Last week Mark Lawrenson wrote that when Benitez gently chided the Americans for their lack of knowledge of the European transfer market, he did not go far enough. Lawrenson suggested he could have said they know nothing about football.

Hicks' comments were a stunning abandonment of the traditions he had promised to uphold. They were also self-serving and cunning. The only reason Hicks and Gillett were meeting Klinsmann last November was not, as Hicks suggested, because they were frightened Benitez would leave but because they wanted to fire him. And the only reason they wanted to fire him was because Benitez had rumbled them: they had no money and their plans for the club were dangerous.

There had been warning signs. In an interview with the American press, Hicks remarked that against Manchester United in December, Liverpool had "played tight". They did not, he claimed, play like they believed they could win. Either he had learned fast or someone was in his ear. Either way, it told of an owner thinking he knew more than he did.

The feud between Benitez and Hicks has been compared to the situation at Tottenham when the club lost faith with a manager but this is a different narrative and a different club. The distinction is not that Martin Jol won nothing while Benitez has claimed the European and FA Cups. Hicks and Gillett have abandoned Liverpool's values and they have no plan B. If their ideas for saddling the club with debt are approved and they move on to dismiss the manager in May, as Benitez expects them to do, then the club itself will be in jeopardy and a manager will be just a patsy.

Benitez is the son of a Madrid hotel owner and as a child he presumably spent many hours watching guests drawn from the business community talking :censored:. Hicks and Gillett are a new kind of businessmen, but an old-fashioned type of speculator. They are rich guys with no money who have provided one service during their 12 months in England and that is to offer an illustration of how capitalism works in the 21st century. They may soon depart with a profit of between £75m and £150m for their paper investment. Rich pickings.

But the sale of at least Hicks' share is essential if Liverpool are to survive and, if they do go, the club have Benitez to thank for exposing, firstly in May and again in November, that these were men with neither the money nor the ambition for the club he manages.

Tomorrow evening, there will be the most public display of disaffection yet from Liverpool supporters. Last November, they marched to support Benitez, now they will voice their opposition to the owners. The supporters have decided they too must adjust to the new world. Liverpool fans have always signed up to the belief that things are done "in-house". Managers were rarely booed; dissatisfaction with the board was usually kept quiet. But they too have changed.

A senior Liverpool figure during their days as England's pre-eminent club surveyed the mess last week and ruefully commented, "How can they do business like that?" Now the 'Reclaim the Kop' group is planning mass protest with chants directed at the owners and Foster Gillett, George's son, who is supposed to be the Americans' presence at the club.

Rick Parry and David Moores had the bright idea to appoint co-managers in 1998 when they gave Gerard Houllier (a man so well versed in :censored: that he could work for Hicks) and Roy Evans joint authority. Nine years on, they promoted even more dangerous lunacy when they let DIC drift out of the picture. Instead, Moores agreed to sell the club to Hicks and Gillett and Parry pushed the deal. At the time a former player, hugely respected at Anfield, was moved to ask the simple question: "How can there be two owners?"

Gillett may this week look for another partner or he may agree to back Hicks in a refinancing deal which places enormous debt on Liverpool -- something they promised not to do when they took over. If DIC come in, they will be treated as saviours, a role they were not necessarily cast in when they first agreed a deal to buy the club and their long-term commitment was questioned.

Now they are all Liverpool have got. Benitez and Parry are said to have put their differences behind them and both are united in opposing the plans of Hicks and the determination to place the debt on the club. These men who arrived eager and bright-eyed, who talked about the club's heritage and promised to learn the values of the institution they were buying and respect it, are now displaying their ignorance.

Liverpool handed over their club to men who knew nothing about football and knew a lot about bluff and bluster. Benitez realised their new frontier was a mirage in the desert. He did what he had to do. His future and the future of the club is now beyond his control.

This, it must be repeated, is not a story of a chairman losing faith in a manager. This is not Tottenham Hotspur or Chelsea. This is a manager losing faith with his owners, seeing through their promises, their false starts and computer-generated images. When the history of these days is written, last week may be viewed as the real Rafa-lution.

My god we dont half owe Rafa for exposing these two cretins.

You really do love us and the club.

Thank you.

Absolutely spot on !!!!

That is everything thats happened !!!

D.I.C. we are waiting with our blessing.

Gillette and Hicks go and take your lying Butsss, and play swing ball, in your small yank town.

"YOU BOTH ARE A LAUGHING STOCK AT OUR FAMOUS     FOOTBALL CLUB"

                                 :D
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:56 am

Good article that, convincing too.

I hope this boll0cks will go away soon, and Rafa can do his talking where football is concerned. I'm hopefull he wont go.

The article said how he has seen through the Yanks, and learnt alot about them in just under a year. I hope in the four years he has been here he can do the same where the Premiership is concerned, not rotating, no silly team selections and so on. We're currently fifteen points adrift as it stands it again looks like the TOP THREE, and we're scrapping for fourth a fair way behind Chelsea.

Rafa may have been our "saviour" as far a the Yanks go which of course is great first and foremost, if the Yanks do leave Rafa IMO has got lucky with all this commotion going on at our club its detracted the attention away from our poor form, if none of this would have happened people would currently be seriously doubting the man as manager of LFC, I would be. But the club has come first and foremost and the focus of form has now seemingly gone unnoticed.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:11 am

Big discussion on five live at the moment and the genral concencus is the yanks are going to sell . The presenter(Gary Richardson) also said he has been told personally that talks are now taking place for a takeover by DIC for £300 million . They will not pay over the odds for the club.
Last edited by Igor Zidane on Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
UP THE PURPS !!!
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:17 am

Also the presenter( Gary Richardson) said he heard personally in the one of the function rooms at Anfield ,back in november a member of the yanks family(wouldn't say who) say ,we are sick to death of the club and want to get the hell out a quick as possible . Or something along those lines ,i can't remember the exact quote.
Last edited by Igor Zidane on Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby lakes10 » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:42 am

I am am all for the Yanks going but i do get a bad feeling from Dubai International Capital.

One of the main points is its a part of the Dubai Government, therefore efected bu world events.

there is still a big question mark over them and funding terrorism (this being the reson that they got turned down from building a port in American)

it links like that that could be the undoing of DIC

"According to dozens of interviews with intelligence officers, law enforcement officials, investigators, gold brokers, and sources with direct knowledge of al Qaeda financial movements in Pakistan, UAE, Europe and the U.S., the desert sheikdom of Dubai has played a key role as a depository and protector of al Qaeda wealth—particularly in the form of gold—both before and after the September 11 attacks.

This, according to the Washington Post foreign service, which added that as U.S. forces attacked Afghanistan after 9-11, couriers with bars of gold and bundles of U.S. dollars were smuggled into Pakistan and then moved via the untraceable hawala money transfer system to the port of Karachi and then to Dubai, effectively preserving financial resources to be used against the United States.

Pakistani financial authorities said $2-3 million was hand-carried into Dubai each day from the port of Karachi, Pakistan, mostly to buy gold, according to the Post.

A senior U.S. intelligence official was quoted as saying, “Why move it [gold] through Dubai? Because there is a willful blindness there.”

Dubai is one of seven sheikdoms that make up the United Arab Emirates and has one of the largest and least regulated gold markets, raising questions as to why the Senate is not unanimously forcing President Bush to retain U.S. control of public buildings and ports when questionable terrorist links exist and U.S. national security is at stake.


French, Pakistani and American investigators say much of the financial layering in the al Qaeda system is modeled on the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI).

BCCI was founded by Pakistanis and largely bankrolled by leaders of the UAE; and in the 1980’s the bank was used to launder drug money, harbor terrorist funds and buy illegal weapons.

The BCCI, with alleged close links to Dubai and UAE covert financial operations, ultimately collapsed during George H. W. Bush’s presidential administration in a major global financial scandal which was covered up by Bush 41 through a series of presidential pardons, weak congressional oversight and suspect career federal investigators and prosecutors.

“BCCI was the mother and father of terrorist financing operations,” said a senior U.S. investigator to the Post Foreign Service
"
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Postby bigmick » Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:53 am

Well hopefully the takeover comes to pass and the current owners disapear into the sunset. I'm probably going to swim against the tide just a fraction though when I say that I don't quite buy this Rafa being the saviour of the club notion, that he saw through the current owners and his outbursts were part of a cunning ruse to "expose" the possibility that they could ruin the club. I suspect that his aims were more obvious than that, I think he simply wanted some cash to buy some players and that's it to be perfectly honest.

That his protests were stage one in the process of many fans losing faith in Hicks and Gillet, and the precursor to grave reservations for many about the depth of the Americans pockets was a coincidental bi-product of his toys out of the pram routine, and not IMHO the main aim of it.

I've said a couple of times recently that the club will never prosper with two idiots in charge and I really believe it won't. If keeping Rafa for the forseeable is what it takes to get rid, then that is certainly what we must do. Once the dust has settled though as it surely will before too much longer,the same questions will remain visa vis our progress or lack thereof in the Premier League. Those same fans who gave us the :;): "remember Valencia" when we doubted the methodology for the last three or four seasons, who assured all and sundry that at the end of this seasons rainbow the holy grail would be if not quite in our grasp very close to it, will no doubt pounce on this "saviour" stuff and cling to it. Even if it were true however, there are many issues at the club which will need to addressed once this cancer has been sliced from the body of the club.

This whole episode has taught us many things, and it's vital in terms of owners that we heed the lessons. As Bamaga pointed out though, we really need to learn the lessons on the football pitch as well. This season we've learnt that even when you have a striker who is absolutely indisputeably World class and in very real danger of being the top scorer in the division, even when you have one of the best midfield players in the World in your ranks, the best goalkeeper in the division and a solid defence, even when you have choices in central midfield which include regulars at International level for Spain and Argentina, unless that group of players plays as a team, with cohesion, rhythm and as a unit you will not prosper. Some maintain that the players aren't actually that good, others that the achievment of that progressive and aggressive team play is nothing to do with the manager. Some say it's not the methodology, we just need better players, more money, more time, more luck, less injuries, less upheaval etc etc.

I'm not so sure about those things. I do though think we need to start learning some lessons once this other nonsense is put to bed.
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Postby kazza » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:05 am

bigmick wrote:I do though think we need to start learning some lessons once this other nonsense is put to bed.

Well how about we WAIT for the other nonsense to be put to bed before we start learning our lessons.

You clearly have all the answers.
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Postby kalos » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:05 am

Lakes ...so Hicks is snow white ? You really believe you amass his kind of wealth through purely legitimate means..and who's on his buddy buddy list ?- oh George W. Bush ..

the same guy that invaded Iraq for Oil - sory WMD (that weren't there and he knew it); allegedly helped memebers of the Bin Laden family get out of the US post 9/11 without so much as them being asked a question about Osama? The same Bush that may well have had multimillion dollar deals with said family according to reports?

The world is a corrupt place mate - unless you want New Anfield to be on Mars stop bringing corruption/poiltics into it .
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Postby Emerald Red » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:14 am

lakes10 wrote:I am am all for the Yanks going but i do get a bad feeling from Dubai International Capital.

One of the main points is its a part of the Dubai Government, therefore efected bu world events.

there is still a big question mark over them and funding terrorism (this being the reson that they got turned down from building a port in American)

Honestly, this is ridiculous and I hope you aren't basing your judgment on credulous Americanized stereotypes of Arabs and Arab /Muslim conglomerates in the middle east that they are all terrorists  or at least fund terrorism. America has other enemies other than the arab/muslim people of the middle-east. In fact, America's biggest enemy is themselves.

Nothing holds much weight in this life other than a man's word. Those two Yank c*nts have already broken theirs, so they aren't worth a f*ck to us. If DIC come in, I'm pretty certain that whatever it is they will say, they will mean. When it comes to business, that's one thing those people don't f*ck around with.
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Postby ruskiy playmaker » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:26 am

I agree that DIC is probably dirty in some way, but who isn't these days.  It is impossible to find a rich buyer that is not corrupt in any way.  What I do know about DIC is that they are committed professionals who do everything they can to make sure that their business is successful.
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Postby bigmick » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:31 am

kazza wrote:Well how about we WAIT for the other nonsense to be put to bed before we start learning our lessons.

You clearly have all the answers.

To be fair Kaz' I have advocated waiting. "Once the dust has settled" etc etc and there are other references in the post. I've always been of the opinion that even if it were not for the other nonsense going on behind the scenes, we shouldn't be making any decisions about who is to be our mananger next season until this one is over and done with.

As for waiting until this other business is put to bed before we learn any lessons, well I'm not too sure. I would have thought it's possible for the management to form conclusions about football matters choose whatever is happening behind the scenes. For instance I should think most people would think it is reasonable to come to the opinion that Kuyt and Voronin aren't good enough for Liverpool football club. Now whether or not Gillet and Hicks own the club, DIC or indeed anybody else won't make too much difference on that one it seems to me. Similarly, the methodology of team selection, formational juggling, the circumspect approach in many matches and a transfer policy which leads towards building two good teams rather than one excellent one has been given a good go as far as I can see. I don't personally think that this particular way is a recipe for success in the English Premier League, and I have to say I don't think it will make any difference who is the owners in that particular respect.

Yes we need to get rid of the owners, and no we don't need to get rid of Rafa. We do though at some point in the next few years, at least for a little bit, have some sort of title challenge. I'm not asking us to win it necessarily (although of course it would be nice) but a challenge would be good. Being in contention would be a start. Waiting until the owners leave before we learn any lessons about this season seems to me to be advocating a policy which will only elongate that process, which I can't agree with.

As for me "clearly having all the answers", well given the length and repetitive nature of my posts I suppose I invite such sarcasm so fair enough.
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Postby Ciggy » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:53 am

Lakes you do realise that the Bin Laden family and Bush Tom Hick's mate are best of friends from their Emron days dont you  ???
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

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Postby laza » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:58 am

ESPN site running the story now, hopefully there is some fire behind this smoke.
I stay clear of dirty money routine, i think there is enough hysteria in this whole sorry story without going down that road
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