Liverpool FC Forum

by **Wilhelmsson** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:24 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Wilhelmsson wrote:I am blunt as Stalin, I show no emotion because my heart is made of stone

WTF?

It was my idea of a sarcasm, it didn’t work did it?

by **Almighty Red** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:20 pm

I freakin' can't bear it when people go around saying we should sack every manager who can't win the league! How many years did it take Houllier to get a team in the top four? And along came Rafa and after less than a year, we had a Champions League. Hell, Houllier went three or four years (after the trebel) with just one League Cup. Rafa's had three seasons and we've won the Champions League, the FA Cup, qualified for the CL every year, and reached several finals. Doesn't seem like much of a failure to me, folks.

Just you wait, in a couple of years time, when Torres is at his very best and Babel and all those young players are showing their true potential... we'll be f*cking unbeatable...

by **Owzat** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:51 pm

Is it just me or has time taken it's toll on our expectation levels?!?!? Apparently these days it's ok for a manager to come in, look nowhere near capable of winning the league if given a decade in charge and yet gets defended to the hilt by some - until a breaking point when consensus swings and then everyone changes their tune.

Biggest club in England settling for third or fourth best?!?! I can see where many that mock Liverpool are coming from if we're happy with second, third and even fourth best. fergie is a one off exception, most times a manager comes in and wins the league within three or so seasons. Didn't take Wenger too long, Kenny did it at Blackburn pretty quickly and Josie did it first time of asking albeit with a pretty expensive team.

Jose Mourinho (Chelsea) - 1st season 2004/5, 1st title 2004/5
Arsene Wenger (Arsenal) - 1st season 1996/7, 1st title 1997/8
Kenny Dalglish (Blackburn) - 1st season 1991/2, 1st title 1994/5
Howard Wilkinson (Leeds Utd) - 1st season 1988/9, 1st title 1991/2
Alex Ferguson (Man Utd) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1992/3
George Graham (Arsenal) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1988/9
Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) - 1st season 1985/6, 1st title 1985/6
Howard Kendall (Everton) - 1st season 1981/2, 1st title 1984/5

*mostly based on wikipedia as my usual source is Premiership managers only.

Shows fergie is an exception rather than the rule, I think that covers most managers who won the league in the past 20 years

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:54 pm

Owzat wrote:Is it just me or has time taken it's toll on our expectation levels?!?!? Apparently these days it's ok for a manager to come in, look nowhere near capable of winning the league if given a decade in charge and yet gets defended to the hilt by some - until a breaking point when consensus swings and then everyone changes their tune.

Biggest club in England settling for third or fourth best?!?! I can see where many that mock Liverpool are coming from if we're happy with second, third and even fourth best. fergie is a one off exception, most times a manager comes in and wins the league within three or so seasons. Didn't take Wenger too long, Kenny did it at Blackburn pretty quickly and Josie did it first time of asking albeit with a pretty expensive team.

Jose Mourinho (Chelsea) - 1st season 2004/5, 1st title 2004/5
Arsene Wenger (Arsenal) - 1st season 1996/7, 1st title 1997/8
Kenny Dalglish (Blackburn) - 1st season 1991/2, 1st title 1994/5
Howard Wilkinson (Leeds Utd) - 1st season 1988/9, 1st title 1991/2
Alex Ferguson (Man Utd) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1992/3
George Graham (Arsenal) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1988/9
Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) - 1st season 1985/6, 1st title 1985/6
Howard Kendall (Everton) - 1st season 1981/2, 1st title 1984/5

*mostly based on wikipedia as my usual source is Premiership managers only.

Shows fergie is an exception rather than the rule, I think that covers most managers who won the league in the past 20 years

Your joking arent you statto ?

Owzat wrote:Jose Mourinho (Chelsea) - 1st season 2004/5, 1st title 2004/5

Roubles ?

Owzat wrote:Arsene Wenger (Arsenal) - 1st season 1996/7, 1st title 1997/8

Exception RATHER than the rule

Owzat wrote:Kenny Dalglish (Blackburn) - 1st season 1991/2, 1st title 1994/5

Jack Walkers millions ?

Owzat wrote:Howard Wilkinson (Leeds Utd) - 1st season 1988/9, 1st title 1991/2

4th year in charge, no huge impact of TV money so level playing field.

Owzat wrote:Alex Ferguson (Man Utd) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1992/3

7the season in charge, no huge impact of TV money so level playing field.

Owzat wrote:George Graham (Arsenal) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1988/9

3rd season in charge, no huge impact of TV money so level playing field.

Owzat wrote:Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) - 1st season 1985/6, 1st title 1985/6

Inherited European Cup finalists mate to be fair, as well as the league winners for 3 of the previous four years.

Owzat wrote:Howard Kendall (Everton) - 1st season 1981/2, 1st title 1984/5

4th season in charge, no huge impact of TV money so level playing field.

by **Owzat** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:01 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Owzat wrote:Is it just me or has time taken it's toll on our expectation levels?!?!? Apparently these days it's ok for a manager to come in, look nowhere near capable of winning the league if given a decade in charge and yet gets defended to the hilt by some - until a breaking point when consensus swings and then everyone changes their tune.

Biggest club in England settling for third or fourth best?!?! I can see where many that mock Liverpool are coming from if we're happy with second, third and even fourth best. fergie is a one off exception, most times a manager comes in and wins the league within three or so seasons. Didn't take Wenger too long, Kenny did it at Blackburn pretty quickly and Josie did it first time of asking albeit with a pretty expensive team.

Jose Mourinho (Chelsea) - 1st season 2004/5, 1st title 2004/5
Arsene Wenger (Arsenal) - 1st season 1996/7, 1st title 1997/8
Kenny Dalglish (Blackburn) - 1st season 1991/2, 1st title 1994/5
Howard Wilkinson (Leeds Utd) - 1st season 1988/9, 1st title 1991/2
Alex Ferguson (Man Utd) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1992/3
George Graham (Arsenal) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1988/9
Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) - 1st season 1985/6, 1st title 1985/6
Howard Kendall (Everton) - 1st season 1981/2, 1st title 1984/5

*mostly based on wikipedia as my usual source is Premiership managers only.

Shows fergie is an exception rather than the rule, I think that covers most managers who won the league in the past 20 years

Your joking arent you statto ?

Times have changed admittedly but Wenger has pretty much won the league with two if not three different teams against teams with more spending power.

Why should I be kidding? I'm fed up with people saying how long it took fergie when he's clearly an exception, other managers have longer and never manage it. I'm not suggesting Rafa should go, but I am suggesting giving him all the time in the world is naive to say the least. It could well have cost us bigtime when sticking with Houllier who took us forward and stayed long enough to take us backwards again. By the time the board got rid, a season too late in my view, Chelsea's spending was the overwhelming factor and the mancs have tried matching it making it much, much harder

Knock it all you like, when we're still no closer to the title and eventually more have turned against Rafa I'll remind you that "we have all the time in the world" is a fanciful myth. We've drawn FOUR league games at Anfield so what do you say about that? Progress? Can't even beat brum or a struggling spudz at Anfield and somehow contrived only to draw against Arsenal and Chelsea because we struggle to score more than one goal against the top sides. I really wish I had the figures to hand, but I bet that the 2-0 and 4-1 last season were the only games we've scored more than 1 against Arsenal, Chelsea or Man Utd under Rafa in the league (and some cups, maybe 2-1 rings bells against Chelsea once)

by **Owzat** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:10 pm

Leon - what did Rafa inherit - a pudding? A club with many millions of pounds worth of players and many millions later we're looking no closer to the title. In fact a number of players he inherited - Riise, Finnan, Kewell, Gerrard and Carra - how many of those played Sunday? You've tried justifying all the managers for winning but the bottom line is you've said they had money or took over a good side every time and they are the only one's to win the league. By the way this is Rafa's fourth season in charge, all but fergie took four or less and most didn't have many millions like Rafa has spent. Problem is he bought players and sold them already, he's spent £10m on Kuyt and some on here suggest he's not good enough and £7m on Crouch who struggles to get games in the league so he's pretty much wasted half what he spent

I have to go now, however I will point out many managers have thrown many millions at winning the league and not made that list. You've made a big deal about money spent but the likes of Houllier, Keegan, Ranieri and others have all spent lots and won little

PS - to say fergie had no benefit from TV money is misguided, I have compared the most expensive teams of Liverpool, Arsenal, Newcastle, and Man Utd (plus Leeds and Blackburn where relevant) and Man Utd were more expensive. I believe Liverpool had a more expensive team than Blackburn the season "Jack Walker's millions bought the league" so it's absolute boll axe and a typically perpetuated myth as the "win nothing with kids" jibe is. Yes Blackburn spent money but nobody EVER bothers comparing it with what other teams spent. There aren't many seasons in the Premiership that the manc team was not most expensive, once in the late nineties until latterly Chelsea bought the league and Josie's place among the gods.

by **burjennio** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:16 pm

FA Cup semi 2-1 against Chelsea, havn't SCORED against Man Utd in the league under Rafa, and all other results have been a tally of 1 or less

(3-2 against Chelsea Carling Cup 05)

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:26 pm

Owzat wrote:Leon - what did Rafa inherit - a pudding? A club with many millions of pounds worth of players and many millions later we're looking no closer to the title. In fact a number of players he inherited - Riise, Finnan, Kewell, Gerrard and Carra - how many of those played Sunday? You've tried justifying all the managers for winning but the bottom line is you've said they had money or took over a good side every time and they are the only one's to win the league. By the way this is Rafa's fourth season in charge, all but fergie took four or less and most didn't have many millions like Rafa has spent. Problem is he bought players and sold them already, he's spent £10m on Kuyt and some on here suggest he's not good enough and £7m on Crouch who struggles to get games in the league so he's pretty much wasted half what he spent

I have to go now, however I will point out many managers have thrown many millions at winning the league and not made that list. You've made a big deal about money spent but the likes of Houllier, Keegan, Ranieri and others have all spent lots and won little

You yourself stated that Houllier took us back in the last season, yet now it was not the case ?

I know what your saying, but you cant post all those names and say its the same when it isnt.

The Premier League, with its television deals has meant a very very different battle ground:

1984-85 league table:

Pos Team P W D L F A GD Pts
1 Everton 42 28 6 8 88 43 45 90
2 Liverpool 42 22 11 9 68 35 33 77
3 Tottenham Hotspur 42 23 8 11 78 51 27 77
4 Manchester United 42 22 10 10 77 47 30 76
5 Southampton 42 19 11 12 56 47 9 68
6 Chelsea 42 18 12 12 63 48 15 66
7 Arsenal 42 19 9 14 61 49 12 66
8 Sheffield Wednesday 42 17 14 11 58 45 13 65
9 Nottingham Forest 42 19 7 16 56 48 8 64
10 Aston Villa 42 15 11 16 60 60 0 56
11 Watford 42 14 13 15 81 71 10 55
12 West Bromwich Albion 42 16 7 19 58 62 -4 55
13 Luton Town 42 15 9 18 57 61 -4 54
14 Newcastle United 42 13 13 16 55 70 -15 52
15 Leicester City 42 15 6 21 65 73 -8 51
16 West Ham United 42 13 12 17 51 68 -17 51
17 Ipswich Town 42 13 11 18 46 57 -11 50
18 Coventry City 42 15 5 22 47 64 -17 50
19 Queens Park Rangers 42 13 11 18 53 72 -19 50
20 Norwich City 42 13 10 19 46 64 -18 49
21 Sunderland 42 10 10 22 40 62 -22 40
22 Stoke City 42 3 8 31 24 91 -67 17

13 points between first and second, then a further 13 points between 2nd and 9th, thats eight other teams.

Last season league table:

Pos Club Pld W D L F A GD Pts Comments
1 Manchester United © 38 28 5 5 83 27 +56 89
2 Chelsea 38 24 11 3 64 24 +40 83
3 Liverpool 38 20 8 10 57 27 +30 68
4 Arsenal 38 19 11 8 63 35 +28 68
5 Tottenham Hotspur 38 17 9 12 57 54 +3 60
6 Everton 38 15 13 10 52 36 +16 58
7 Bolton Wanderers 38 16 8 14 47 52 -5 56
8 Reading 38 16 7 15 52 47 +5 55
9 Portsmouth 38 14 12 12 45 42 +3 54
10 Blackburn Rovers 38 15 7 16 52 54 -2 52
11 Aston Villa 38 11 17 10 43 41 +2 50
12 Middlesbrough 38 12 10 16 44 49 -5 46
13 Newcastle United 38 11 10 17 38 47 -9 43
14 Manchester City 38 11 9 18 29 44 -15 42
15 West Ham United 38 12 5 21 35 59 -24 41
16 Fulham 38 8 15 15 38 60 -22 39
17 Wigan Athletic 38 10 8 20 37 59 -22 38
18 Sheffield United ® 38 10 8 20 32 55 -23 38
19 Charlton Athletic ® 38 8 10 20 34 60 -26 34
20 Watford ® 38 5 13 20 29 59 -30 28

6 points between 1st and 2nd and then 15 to third. A totally different playing field mate.

by **woof woof !** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:31 pm

Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

by **burjennio** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:35 pm

the guy that bougth Van Der Varrt on football managaer 08, he knows his stuff

by **heimdall** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:43 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

Disagree with that. His record shows that he was a good manager in Spain and is a very good cup/european manager. It does not point to him being a great premiership manager and that is the problem.
Who would I want to replace him, pretty much anybody who can take us to the next level, but specifically how about Luiz Felipe Scolari or Guus Hiddink ? :bowdown

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:51 pm

heimdall wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

Disagree with that. His record shows that he was a good manager in Spain and is a very good cup/european manager. It does not point to him being a great premiership manager and that is the problem.
Who would I want to replace him, pretty much anybody who can take us to the next level, but specifically how about Luiz Felipe Scolari or Guus Hiddink ?

Both proven Premiership managers?

Based on your comments above it would seem that you'd want someone who could do the business in England. Who's to say that Hiddink and Scholari won't just be good cup managers themselves?

I'm not a fan, personally, and I would hate to see him come in after all the rubbish he's chatted about our club but, just to play devil's advocate here, there's an obvious choice: Mourinho. He's proven he knows what it takes to win the Prem, after all?

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:56 pm

burjennio wrote:the guy that bougth Van Der Varrt on football managaer 08, he knows his stuff

He is BOSS.

by **woof woof !** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:03 pm

heimdall wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

Disagree with that. His record shows that he was a good manager in Spain and is a very good cup/european manager. It does not point to him being a great premiership manager and that is the problem.
Who would I want to replace him, pretty much anybody who can take us to the next level, but specifically how about Luiz Felipe Scolari or Guus Hiddink ?

when I want your opinion I'll tell you what it is . In the meantime refrain from talking down Rafa's ability as a premiership manager whilst at the same time championing people who've never performed in it.

Plank ! I don't like you sunshine :kungfu:

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:05 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
heimdall wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

Disagree with that. His record shows that he was a good manager in Spain and is a very good cup/european manager. It does not point to him being a great premiership manager and that is the problem.
Who would I want to replace him, pretty much anybody who can take us to the next level, but specifically how about Luiz Felipe Scolari or Guus Hiddink ?

when I want your opinion I'll tell you what it is . In the meantime refrain from talking down Rafa's ability as a premiership manager whilst at the same time championing people who've never performed in it.

Plank ! I don't like you sunshine

LFC is the ONLY mod not to call Heimdall a whopper.

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