Liverpool FC Forum

[redtrader74]

Is it just me or has time taken it's toll on our expectation levels?!?!? Apparently these days it's ok for a manager to come in, look nowhere near capable of winning the league if given a decade in charge and yet gets defended to the hilt by some - until a breaking point when consensus swings and then everyone changes their tune.

Biggest club in England settling for third or fourth best?!?! I can see where many that mock Liverpool are coming from if we're happy with second, third and even fourth best. fergie is a one off exception, most times a manager comes in and wins the league within three or so seasons. Didn't take Wenger too long, Kenny did it at Blackburn pretty quickly and Josie did it first time of asking albeit with a pretty expensive team.

Jose Mourinho (Chelsea) - 1st season 2004/5, 1st title 2004/5
Arsene Wenger (Arsenal) - 1st season 1996/7, 1st title 1997/8
Kenny Dalglish (Blackburn) - 1st season 1991/2, 1st title 1994/5
Howard Wilkinson (Leeds Utd) - 1st season 1988/9, 1st title 1991/2
Alex Ferguson (Man Utd) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1992/3
George Graham (Arsenal) - 1st season 1986/7, 1st title 1988/9
Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool) - 1st season 1985/6, 1st title 1985/6
Howard Kendall (Everton) - 1st season 1981/2, 1st title 1984/5

*mostly based on wikipedia as my usual source is Premiership managers only.

Shows fergie is an exception rather than the rule, I think that covers most managers who won the league in the past 20 years

Any chance of a list that will tell us how many years  it took managers to win the the Champions league/ European Cup?

Rafa 10 months
Fergie 13 years
Wenger never

You can add the rest

Using your logic does that mean that Fergie and Wenger are poor in comparison?

This is probably the most difficult time in History to win the League title, Arsenal aside (who have btw spent money, have had a manger in situe for over 10 years, hell, maybe he's a better manager than all of them, but we're not ever getting him), over the past few years Spurs, Newcastle, Leeds have on occasion out spent us, West Ham and Man. City are catching up, and until this Summer only ManU and Chelsea have been able to spend 20m+ on an individual player.

Therefore if you believe that Rafa has the ability and credentials to win a League title, then we have to give him time, i thought this year might be it, and it still might, but it could be another 2-3 years, are we willing to wait, or do we think there is an alchemist around the corner who will do it immediatly? If we continue to consolidate a CL place, along with a concerted league Challenge each year (mathematically in with a chance with 5 games to go, or so), allied with the later stages of the CL, QF onwards, then imo he stays.

At present i still firmly believe that he will get it right, i have resevations about some of his tactics and selections, but if we look in his past, these very same methods have brought us success in every competition, and a modicum of it in the League. It also worked in Spain, i know its not the EPL, but its hardly the Dr.Martens league either.

[heimdall]

Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

Disagree with that.  His record shows that he was a good manager in Spain and is a very good cup/european manager. It does not point to him being a great premiership manager and that is the problem.
Who would I want to replace him, pretty much anybody who can take us to the next level, but specifically how about Luiz Felipe Scolari or Guus Hiddink ?  

when I want your opinion I'll tell you what it is . In the meantime refrain from talking down Rafa's ability as a premiership manager whilst at the same time championing people who've never performed in it.

Plank ! I don't like you sunshine 

and when I want to read some sentimental drivel I'll take a glance at yours. I used to like you, not sure what I've done to offend you except offer a different opinion.
For a moderator you sure don't get the point of an open forum do you, who's the plank?
I don't need your permission to post my point of view.

[heimdall]

Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

Disagree with that.  His record shows that he was a good manager in Spain and is a very good cup/european manager. It does not point to him being a great premiership manager and that is the problem.
Who would I want to replace him, pretty much anybody who can take us to the next level, but specifically how about Luiz Felipe Scolari or Guus Hiddink ?  

when I want your opinion I'll tell you what it is . In the meantime refrain from talking down Rafa's ability as a premiership manager whilst at the same time championing people who've never performed in it.

Plank ! I don't like you sunshine 

LFC is the ONLY mod not to call Heimdall a whopper. 

Tell me is this an open forum or is it just a place for sycophantic Rafa lovers, too much abuse on here these days!! 

I was asked who I would like to see come in and considering that Wenger, Ferguson and Maureen are very unlikely to want the job and that the majority of other good managers seem to be ex ManUtd players I went for some other very strong candidates. I wonder how rafa got the job originally as he didn't have much Prem experience at the time did he , mind you he still doesn't seem to have figured it out. 

[Bad Bob]

I was asked who I would like to see come in and considering that Wenger, Ferguson and Maureen are very unlikely to want the job and that the majority of other good managers seem to be ex ManUtd players I went for some other very strong candidates. I wonder how rafa got the job originally as he didn't have much Prem experience at the time did he , mind you he still doesn't seem to have figured it out. 

Look, mate, you were the one that implied that hiring Rafa was a mistake given his lack of Prem experience.  We were just following your line of reasoning and using it to question the credentials of either Hiddink or Scolari.

[account deleted by request]

Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

Back on topic....

What about Pako ? knows the prem, supposedly we have fallen to bits since he left.

Only problem I can see is he believes in rotation so Bigmick might continue with his crusade.

Maybe not then eh 

[Ade]

My concern over Rafa is primarily that he seems so slow to admit his errors and learn from them. Talking purely of the Premiership here (his record in Europe is another matter), this is his fourth season now, and he still seems intent on proving that Wenger, Ferguson and Mourinho were all wrong when they won titles consistently by playing their best players as much as possible in their best positions. Either that, or Rafa believes those managers just got lucky, and would clearly have won the title more comfortably if they'd only used Rafa's Magic Rotation Formula (£22m this summer from your local American cornershop).

Does he have to get it right this season? I think he does, for two main reasons: he stamped his feet after Athens and demanded a serious cash injection from G&T to mount a serious title bid. He got it, and Torres, and now he has to prove he can cut it.

Secondly, Stevie will be 28 next May, and this is a player who's been playing 10 years at the top already. How many more years do he and Carra have as our hearbeat?

If we don't win the title this year, it won't be a disgrace - not with the quality of the Mancs, Chelsea and Arsenal. But we have to mount a serious challenge, and any fool and his dog can see that you don't do that by constantly tinkering with formations and team selections week in week out to the point where top quality internationals look like they're playing with an eye patch on.

Take Sunday. Pick the best 11 players from Liverpool v Arsenal.

Reina
Finnan
Carra
Gallas
Clichy

Cesc
stevie
Masch
Alonso

Torres/Kuyt
Rosicky

We had better players on the pitch. But because their players knew their roles, their positions inside out, they looked the better team, had better understanding, the better fluency, better passing.

If Rafa doesn't settle on a 1st choice side soon, we'll be sitting here come next March with the usual 'Next year i really think we can do it' thread.

[woof woof !]

Sticking with the "What next" issue IF (and its a big IF ), IF Rafa were to be given the elbow , who exactly would those that would be happy to wave him goodbye want as his replacement ? . Top managers are few and far between, and whatever you think of Rafa,( his tactics, his rotation, his facial hair,) his record clearly shows that he's a top manager.

Disagree with that.  His record shows that he was a good manager in Spain and is a very good cup/european manager. It does not point to him being a great premiership manager and that is the problem.
Who would I want to replace him, pretty much anybody who can take us to the next level, but specifically how about Luiz Felipe Scolari or Guus Hiddink ?  

when I want your opinion I'll tell you what it is . In the meantime refrain from talking down Rafa's ability as a premiership manager whilst at the same time championing people who've never performed in it.

Plank ! I don't like you sunshine 

and when I want to read some sentimental drivel I'll take a glance at yours. I used to like you, not sure what I've done to offend you except offer a different opinion.
For a moderator you sure don't get the point of an open forum do you, who's the plank?
I don't need your permission to post my point of view.

when I want to read some sentimental drivel I'll take a glance at yours. I used to like you, not sure what I've done to offend you except offer a different opinion.

Somewhat ironically you use the words "drivel and opinion " in the same sentence. This from someone who has castigated Benitez's performance in the premiership with

His record shows that he was a good manager in Spain and is a very good cup/european manager. It does not point to him being a great premiership manager and that is the problem.

and in the same breath goes on to say

Who would I want to replace him, pretty much anybody who can take us to the next level, but specifically how about Luiz Felipe Scolari or Guus Hiddink

both of whom have no experience in the premiership and who's domestic records are far less significant than Benitez.

As for

For a moderator you sure don't get the point of an open forum do you, who's the plank?

You're obviously confusing me with Mother Teresa , and last time I checked, she was dead.

I used to like you,

I can only apologise for any lapse in my behavior that caused you to feel that way

I don't need your permission to post my point of view.

, Lets just say it helps.

Now f'uck off.

[Igor Zidane]

I think the klinks should leave Mr hiemdall alone . I think he's special personally speaking.

[Leonmc0708]

My concern over Rafa is primarily that he seems so slow to admit his errors and learn from them. Talking purely of the Premiership here (his record in Europe is another matter), this is his fourth season now, and he still seems intent on proving that Wenger, Ferguson and Mourinho were all wrong when they won titles consistently by playing their best players as much as possible in their best positions. Either that, or Rafa believes those managers just got lucky, and would clearly have won the title more comfortably if they'd only used Rafa's Magic Rotation Formula (£22m this summer from your local American cornershop).

Does he have to get it right this season? I think he does, for two main reasons: he stamped his feet after Athens and demanded a serious cash injection from G&T to mount a serious title bid. He got it, and Torres, and now he has to prove he can cut it.

Secondly, Stevie will be 28 next May, and this is a player who's been playing 10 years at the top already. How many more years do he and Carra have as our hearbeat?

If we don't win the title this year, it won't be a disgrace - not with the quality of the Mancs, Chelsea and Arsenal. But we have to mount a serious challenge, and any fool and his dog can see that you don't do that by constantly tinkering with formations and team selections week in week out to the point where top quality internationals look like they're playing with an eye patch on.

Take Sunday. Pick the best 11 players from Liverpool v Arsenal.

Reina
Finnan
Carra
Gallas
Clichy

Cesc
stevie
Masch
Alonso

Torres/Kuyt
Rosicky

We had better players on the pitch. But because their players knew their roles, their positions inside out, they looked the better team, had better understanding, the better fluency, better passing.

If Rafa doesn't settle on a 1st choice side soon, we'll be sitting here come next March with the usual 'Next year i really think we can do it' thread.

Morientes, Josemi, Nunez, Kromkamp, Gonzales.

Your post is shi.te lad.

[Gerrard30391]

My concern over Rafa is primarily that he seems so slow to admit his errors and learn from them. Talking purely of the Premiership here (his record in Europe is another matter), this is his fourth season now, and he still seems intent on proving that Wenger, Ferguson and Mourinho were all wrong when they won titles consistently by playing their best players as much as possible in their best positions. Either that, or Rafa believes those managers just got lucky, and would clearly have won the title more comfortably if they'd only used Rafa's Magic Rotation Formula (£22m this summer from your local American cornershop).

Does he have to get it right this season? I think he does, for two main reasons: he stamped his feet after Athens and demanded a serious cash injection from G&T to mount a serious title bid. He got it, and Torres, and now he has to prove he can cut it.

Secondly, Stevie will be 28 next May, and this is a player who's been playing 10 years at the top already. How many more years do he and Carra have as our hearbeat?

If we don't win the title this year, it won't be a disgrace - not with the quality of the Mancs, Chelsea and Arsenal. But we have to mount a serious challenge, and any fool and his dog can see that you don't do that by constantly tinkering with formations and team selections week in week out to the point where top quality internationals look like they're playing with an eye patch on.

Take Sunday. Pick the best 11 players from Liverpool v Arsenal.

Reina
Finnan
Carra
Gallas
Clichy

Cesc
stevie
Masch
Alonso

Torres/Kuyt
Rosicky

We had better players on the pitch. But because their players knew their roles, their positions inside out, they looked the better team, had better understanding, the better fluency, better passing.

If Rafa doesn't settle on a 1st choice side soon, we'll be sitting here come next March with the usual 'Next year i really think we can do it' thread.

Ive got to admit that this is the best post on this topic! And that the people that posted first and before the season had kicked off need to re-read the posts and think of themselves as selfish to be honest. He has every right to think what will happen to his team if we fail, and it's an 'if' not a 'when'.

Anyway, my opinion is, Rafa could go. Im only 16 and i sat and watched the game with my old man, and a mate, who is and Arsenal fan. And we debated our selections compared to the Gunners. We decided that the chances we have of winning the title like Rafa is doing now as Blackburn. No joke.

It's just not going to work. Crouch (correct me if im wrong, last years top scorer?) looks like hes some blind man! Hes a target to play with Torres(when fit) and scores goals. Unlike Kuyt and Voronin, who can't score for tofffe in open play lets be honest. So he needs games. he got games last year and we saw the profits from it. hat-trick vs Arsenal. The Arsenal team that's not much different than the one we played on Sunday, surely hed play?

Nobody, but nobody, not even Pele can play at there best when they aren't playing week-in and week-out. So Rafa has to sit down with his management team. And pick his best team when everybody is fit. then he decides is this good enough to win the league. I would say Yes. Back-ups aren't too bad either. Lucas etc.

So, i believe as much as i love Rafa for the trophies he's won the way he feels is right. Needs to review his policy. Wenger, Fergy and Mourinho's players could go the distance so why can't ours?

Is Rafa saying there unfit and can't compete like the other top 3?

Something has to change, and it's to do with Rafa. His policy or him!

Valid comment? I think so.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I can't wait till the end of the season, Benitez must go now. The "football" we are playing currently wouldn't even get us in the play-offs in league 2. Over 100 million to spend and alls he can achieve domestically in 20 odd points behind the champions. I'll never forget Benitez for the 25th of May 2005, but it's proven to me that he is unable to win us the league.

[red37]

I can't wait till the end of the season, Benitez must go now. The "football" we are playing currently wouldn't even get us in the play-offs in league 2. Over 100 million to spend and alls he can achieve domestically in 20 odd points behind the champions. I'll never forget Benitez for the 25th of May 2005, but it's proven to me that he is unable to win us the league.

Is it 

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I can't wait till the end of the season, Benitez must go now. The "football" we are playing currently wouldn't even get us in the play-offs in league 2. Over 100 million to spend and alls he can achieve domestically in 20 odd points behind the champions. I'll never forget Benitez for the 25th of May 2005, but it's proven to me that he is unable to win us the league.

Is it 

yes it is

[redtrader74]

I can't wait till the end of the season, Benitez must go now. The "football" we are playing currently wouldn't even get us in the play-offs in league 2. Over 100 million to spend and alls he can achieve domestically in 20 odd points behind the champions. I'll never forget Benitez for the 25th of May 2005, but it's proven to me that he is unable to win us the league.

and yet at the start of the season you were sure we would be league champions.......what has changed your mind, is it because we are still unbeaten in the league?
The missus mustn't know where she stands with you, cooks a nice meal and you tell her you'll be together forever, the next day she serves up a frey bentos pie and you're getting divorced

[stevef209]

Ive got to admit that this is the best post on this topic! And that the people that posted first and before the season had kicked off need to re-read the posts and think of themselves as selfish to be honest. He has every right to think what will happen to his team if we fail, and it's an 'if' not a 'when'.

Anyway, my opinion is, Rafa could go. Im only 16 and i sat and watched the game with my old man, and a mate, who is and Arsenal fan. And we debated our selections compared to the Gunners. We decided that the chances we have of winning the title like Rafa is doing now as Blackburn. No joke.

It's just not going to work. Crouch (correct me if im wrong, last years top scorer?) looks like hes some blind man! Hes a target to play with Torres(when fit) and scores goals. Unlike Kuyt and Voronin, who can't score for tofffe in open play lets be honest. So he needs games. he got games last year and we saw the profits from it. hat-trick vs Arsenal. The Arsenal team that's not much different than the one we played on Sunday, surely hed play?

Nobody, but nobody, not even Pele can play at there best when they aren't playing week-in and week-out. So Rafa has to sit down with his management team. And pick his best team when everybody is fit. then he decides is this good enough to win the league. I would say Yes. Back-ups aren't too bad either. Lucas etc.

So, i believe as much as i love Rafa for the trophies he's won the way he feels is right. Needs to review his policy. Wenger, Fergy and Mourinho's players could go the distance so why can't ours?

Is Rafa saying there unfit and can't compete like the other top 3?

Something has to change, and it's to do with Rafa. His policy or him!

Valid comment? I think so.

THis is one of the best posts I've read. I completely agree with this. ALL of this.