Next season, i know it's early but... - What would be good enough in the league?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby redtrader74 » Mon May 07, 2007 10:56 am

Effes wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:
peewee wrote:guys, only to win the league is good enough, thats a fact, anything else is not winning, its losing, doesnt matter how many points we have, how many signing etc, anything less than winning the league is failing in the league.

stu hits the nail on the head, no more excuses about bedding players in, the world cup, fatigue etc, only a win is good enough, anything else is a failure

Agree completely....

This is what 16 years or so does without winning the title. You settle for anything that's remotly decent or at least looks good mathematically on the league table, so at least we can say "yeah, we're close. Next year is ours!" How many of us have been saying this for years and years during the 90's? I know I have. A lot of friend and fellow supporters accept it this way. I don't. I agree: we need to win the league or at least get very close to it with at least 2 cups won, or Rafa needs to walk.



He deserves the full five years, but next season will be his fourth and we MUST improve next season considerabley. I expect at least around 85 points, give or take a couple.

Is that what I said? We MUST improve, if not next season, then when? You're after 85 points in the league? So, technically, you're asking for the league to be won, because that's usually good enough to win it.

Check your facts.

:laugh:

85+ points is usually good enough to win the league, yes! FACT!

The last 3 seasons 2nd place got

2004 - 79 pts
2005 - 83 pts
2006 - 83 pts

So yea, 85 would have been enough to win the league.

What??!! 85+ points may win the league, but getting it the last 3 years would not have, the winners scored more than 90.
Unless you are assuming that tally includes taking 6 points from all your immediate rivals.
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Postby Effes » Mon May 07, 2007 2:00 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Effes wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:
peewee wrote:guys, only to win the league is good enough, thats a fact, anything else is not winning, its losing, doesnt matter how many points we have, how many signing etc, anything less than winning the league is failing in the league.

stu hits the nail on the head, no more excuses about bedding players in, the world cup, fatigue etc, only a win is good enough, anything else is a failure

Agree completely....

This is what 16 years or so does without winning the title. You settle for anything that's remotly decent or at least looks good mathematically on the league table, so at least we can say "yeah, we're close. Next year is ours!" How many of us have been saying this for years and years during the 90's? I know I have. A lot of friend and fellow supporters accept it this way. I don't. I agree: we need to win the league or at least get very close to it with at least 2 cups won, or Rafa needs to walk.



He deserves the full five years, but next season will be his fourth and we MUST improve next season considerabley. I expect at least around 85 points, give or take a couple.

Is that what I said? We MUST improve, if not next season, then when? You're after 85 points in the league? So, technically, you're asking for the league to be won, because that's usually good enough to win it.

Check your facts.

:laugh:

85+ points is usually good enough to win the league, yes! FACT!

The last 3 seasons 2nd place got

2004 - 79 pts
2005 - 83 pts
2006 - 83 pts

So yea, 85 would have been enough to win the league.

What??!! 85+ points may win the league, but getting it the last 3 years would not have, the winners scored more than 90.
Unless you are assuming that tally includes taking 6 points from all your immediate rivals.

If you look above at the 2nd place teams in the last 3 years,
you'll see that 85 points would put you above them. (i.e. 1st)

So, theoretically you could say that 85 points would have been enough to win the league.
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Postby SuperScouser » Mon May 07, 2007 3:07 pm

Next season we have to be fightin for 1st and 2nd place
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Postby stmichael » Tue May 08, 2007 12:13 pm

yes i know we've been playing the reserves recently but we've lost NINE away games in the premiership this season. i mean that's worse than man city ffs.

as far as i'm concerned there are no more excuses this season. we have to be a lot more positive away from home if we wan't to get anywhere near the title. manure just blow the lesser teams away where as we huff and puff with little success.

infact manure have won the league this season despite not beating arsenal or chelsea in the league. they just rarely slip up in games they're expected to win. they've also been very lucky with injuries until the last three weeks or so.

reports in the papers over the weekend were that manure would have almost £50m to spend this summer. i fear we're going have to match that aswell because chelsea will just throw the book at anyone they fancy to get back to the top again.
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Postby stmichael » Tue May 08, 2007 12:56 pm

EddieC wrote:Apologies if some of this has already been mentioned, I haven't had time to read the whole thread.

The key for me this summer, is not going overboard in the transfer market. One of the main reasons I believe Man Utd have been so successful this season is the fact that they had a settled squad with only one major signing in the summer, Carrick. On the other hand we brought in Bellamy, Kuyt, Pennant, Gonzales, Aurelio & Paletta. This was unavoidable, as Rafa still didn't have all the players he needed, but he's had 6 transfer windows now, and seems to have the bulk of the squad that he needs.

These major changes in personnel are for me the reason we had such a bad start this season & last. Remember the summer before we also signed Crouch, Zenden, Reina & Sissoko, with Cisse basically being like a new player having come back from injury. Whenever you bring new players in it is going to take them time to gel, and unfortunately you won't get the best out of them until they have. In our first 10 league games of the season we dropped 16 points. Ok 6 of them were against Manure & Sh!tski, but the other 10 were against Sheff Utd, Blackburn, Bolton & Everton, all teams we should have been beating, but due to an unsettled squad we didn't. Add these points back on to our tally, and assume we would've actually tried & won in the last two games if there was somethng riding on it, and it would leave us only 5 points behind Utd, and currently 3 points ahead of Chelsea. These dropped points at the start of the season are definately what cost us, as it did at the start of last season.

However this summer I don't see us needing to make wholesale changes, just two wingers and a striker to come, with Voronin who we've already signed. I expect to see Dudek, Zenden, Cisse, Bellamy, Fowler & Le Tallec leave in the summer, probably raising about £15m between them. Added to the £40m that is being mentioned a lot (although neither Gillett or Hicks has mentioned a figure) would give us £55m, enough to get three world class players for those positions. The rest of our squad is fine, we are defensively sound, and probably have the best central midfield options in the world at the moment, all we need is a couple of players who can produce a bit of magic out of nothing. Our major problem this season has been unlocking teams when they put 10 men behind the ball, we need our own Ronaldo or Kaka who can do this with one moment of skill. That is the difference between league and cup, in cups teams have to beat you, in the league you will always get some teams playing for a draw. At the moment we don't have the right tools in our box to break down teams when they do this, Luis Garcia is probably our best at doing it, but we could still do with someone better, and one player isn't enough anyway.

Going back to this season, I feel we haven't really moved forward from last season in terms of end product, but in terms of the squad we've put together I feel we are a lot stronger. Pepe, despite a couple of slip ups at the start of the season, has been immense for us, and has had a superb back four in front of him. Agger this season has really come of age, and proved himself to be more than worthy of replacing Hyypia. The only thing that concerns me for the future in defence is where our aerial prescence will come from when Hyypia leaves? Hopefully when he goes (probably at the end of next season) we'll buy someone equally as good in the air. Arbeloa, whilst it's still early days, seems to have settled into the squad immediately, following a baptism of fire marking Messi & dealing with it like a seasoned pro. He was coached by Rafa in Real Madrid's youth team though, so probably had a good idea what was expected before he came. The major thing that has impressed me with our defence this season is the level of communication amongst all the players, not just the ones playing regularly. Last season our first choice defence was amazing, but take one player out of it and it all went to pot. Yesterday we had a defence of Insua, Hyypia, Paletta & Arbeloa, and whilst they weren't all individually great, the way they worked as a unit was spot on.

In midfield, we now have the best options in the centre out of any club in the world IMO. Alonso started off the season very slowly, a lot of it I think was down to complacency. It was always either Gerrard & Alonso in the middle, or Gerrard on the right, which meant Alonso played with Sissoko. He was pretty much guaranteed his place in the starting 11, apart from the odd times Rafa thought Zenden in the middle was a good idea, and it showed. However since the arrival of Mascherano he seems to have had a bit of a rocket up his @rse, and is playing a lot better. Sissoko hasn't lived up to the hype of last year, but remember he is still a young lad who, from what I've heard from Spanish friends, had the best season of his career and possibly set the bar too high to be able to live up to expectations. He is still a very promising player, I think people just need to accept him for what he is and stop expecting more of him. He is a destroying midfielder, very handy for playing against teams who like to pass the ball as he doesn't give you any time on the ball. However that's pretty much where his talents end, he can't pass well & he can't dribble. He is a useful player to have when the gameplan is to stop the other team playing, but not so useful when the plan is to play round the opposition, for this reason quite strangely he's a player for the big games, but not the less challenging ones. There's not really much I need to say about Gerrard, we all know what he can do. Had a relatively quiet season by his standards, but still been our best midfielder. Mascherano has been a great acquisition since arriving, Hayden Mullins & Nigel Reo-Coker must be great players to keep this lad out of the West Ham side. A slightly different option to Alonso, ideal for when the opposition has a Sissoko type player. Hasn't got the same range of passing as Alonso, but doesn't need as much time on the ball, and can handle being pressured more. On the wings, all I'm going to say is we don't have enough class. Pennant is good enough to give our first choice a rest, but for me hasn't shown enough consistency to warrant being a first choice winger, especially considering he's played more games than any other outfield player this season. On the left, Kewell is our best option, but will he ever be fit? Luis Garcia can play a role, but isn't an out & out winger, he'll cut inside more than he'll beat a man & get a cross in. Definate strengthening needed on both wings in the summer.

Up front, We definately need a world class finisher, for me either Villa or Eto'o. I feel our current crop though, have suffered from the lack of decent wingers. From what I can see, tactically Rafa has managed to pull the wool over the fans eyes. He came here using 4-2-3-1 and we didn't like it, and cried out for 4-4-2. Rather than doing this, I feel Rafa has essentially stuck with the principles of a 4-2-3-1, but used Kuyt in the 'attacking midfielder' role but slightly further forward, giving the impression of two strikers & therefore a 4-4-2 formation. Personally I don't have a problem with this, but for the 4-2-3-1 to work you have to have quality wingers. The formation involves the Central midfield being very defensive so your midfield creativity needs to come from your wide men. Unfortunately there's been no real service from our wide men for most of the season, and a shocking lack of goals. As a result of the lack of goals from the team in general, the strikers have been the ones taking the flack. I personally feel Crouch & Kuyt have not done a bad job this season, Kuyt has worked his socks off without really having anyone there to benefit from the work, and don't forget he's still scored more than Drogba did in his first season. Crouch has been a solid performer this season, I don't care what anyone says. Anyone still knocking him by now has to be doing it purely because of his appearance. He has the best goals per minutes played ratio at the club this season, whilst still providing essential hold up play too. Given better service next season, and a world class strike partner, I feel both Kuyt & Crouch will benefit and become even better players. Bellamy for me has not done enough, as a pace player I think Cisse is a better option. For the sort of player he is, playing on the shoulder of the last defender, he gets caught offside far too much. Personally with Eto'o or Villa hopefully arriving, neither of whom's short of pace, there will be no space for him, or Cisse, in our squad.

All in all, as I said at the start of the post, I feel the key is essential changes only in the summer. Just because we have the money now, we don't need to start spending it just for the sake of it. A bit of attacking flair is all we're really missing, the rest of the team is solid & settled, so for me it has to be just the two wingers and a striker. This is exactly what I said our first team needed last summer, however last summer we also needed a few more squad players, which we have now so I'd say we've made a slight bit of progress this season. With Mourinho quite possibly going in the summer, and Manure seeming to be pinning their hopes on Torres for the next season, who mark my words will not turn out to be a good signing, the Premiership will be there for the taking. Financially we will be in a position to take it, I don't think he will but Rafa will have no excuses if he does get it wrong.

I agree, on the whole.

Rafa should be going into next season knowing his strongest team.  That means not making too many changes from the team this year, and it means getting our first XI playing together pre-season and preferably playing well and winning in pre-season before going into that first premiership game.

This year, we went into that game with Sheffield Utd with a team which was extremely unfamiliar with itself.  Our defence was shakey, with Aurelio starting at left back.  Next season, we should start with Finnan, Agger, Carragher and Riise / Aurelio in defence - whether or not we sign any new superstar defenders (e.g. Alves / Bale).  It is crucial to build on a solid base.  Defence is all about organisation - the area of the team where teamwork and familiarity is most important.  Do not mess with it until new players are settled in, know their team mates, have had plenty of time to train with them, and the team has some momentum.

Momentum is crucial.  I completely agree when you say that we shouldn't rotate from matchday 1.  We should rotate from matchday 10, when we are (hopefully) on a role, full of confidence, and the team is playing well.  This means not too much :censored: around with the first team - no wholesale changes of personnel.  And preferably not too many different formations.

Attitude is also important.  We need to start the season with the expectation and ambition of winning the league.  We need to go into next season believing that it will have been a failure if we don't win the league.  I don't believe that we have done that previously.  Let's not talk down our chances this summer - Rafa should come out and say "right, we've won the champions league twice now [let's hope!] - now we mean business in the league. we are going to win it - because we are better than man utd, chelsea, arsenal and everybody else. Liverpool means business in the league this season".

Rafa also needs to make clear to a few of our players that we need more from them in the league.  Pennant has to score more.  As does Gerrard.  Kewell has to deliver.  While Gonzalez needs to know that he has to show some improvement next season.  Alonso should be scoring more, while Sissoko must work on his passing.  Crouch should be more aggressive when the ball is in the air, and Kuyt should score more.

Gerrard can also set the tone - in the way that Roy Keane used to at Man Utd.  I want him to come out and say "We are delighted with our European form.  But we have not been good enough in the league and that is not good enough for Liverpool.  We have had a good long look at ourselves over the summer, we have improved our squad, and we will do this or we will have failed".

Finally, personnel.  Vitally important that we score more goals next season.  This requires two changes - one up front, where we need to sign a top quality striker.  And one in midfield, where we need to sign a top quality attacking midfielder to help us make better chances and contribute (hopefully) 15 or so goals himself.  There are other areas where we could improve the quality of the team - but given the need to hit the ground running, we can't afford to bed in too many new signings.  Let's just make it a couple of new signings for the first XI.

The other signing we should make is a replacement for Hyypia. Someone young (a long term successor to JC when he gets a bit older, and someone who is happy to sit on the bench a fair bit).  Someone tall, and pacy would be ideal.
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Postby BenitezTheBuffoon » Tue May 08, 2007 10:09 pm

I've pretty much convinced myself that Benitez will sign Raul and not Eto'o or Villa like everyone wants.
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Postby LFC2007 » Tue May 08, 2007 10:23 pm

BenitezTheBuffoon wrote:I've pretty much convinced myself that Benitez will sign Raul and not Eto'o or Villa like everyone wants.

Benitez will sign who he wants to sign, a player who fits the required criteria. What 'everyone wants' is not the criteria by which he will decide to sign a player, it will be whoever fits the bill. You've convinced yourself he'll sign Raul because of tabloid talk, either that or your Raul's agent.
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Postby yckatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue May 08, 2007 10:54 pm

on the spanish footy on sky they interviewed torres and whilst he rolled out the usual platitudes about being committed to athletico he did say he was more popular in england than he is in spain and maybe thats where his future lies.
he mentioned both us and united and said he`d love to play in the prem.
giullem ballague (sp?) did say though that he has it on good authority that torres is no.2 on both uniteds and liverpools hit list for the summer.
in other words if he does sign for us or united, we, or they, will have missed out on our or their no.1 choice, but as ballague says, the problem for torres, who in private does want a move to anfield or old trafford is that in this current climate not many players are going to turn down us or united.
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Postby 66-1112520797 » Tue May 08, 2007 11:00 pm

yckatbjywtbiastkamb wrote:on the spanish footy on sky they interviewed torres and whilst he rolled out the usual platitudes about being committed to athletico he did say he was more popular in england than he is in spain and maybe thats where his future lies.
he mentioned both us and united and said he`d love to play in the prem.
giullem ballague (sp?) did say though that he has it on good authority that torres is no.2 on both uniteds and liverpools hit list for the summer.
in other words if he does sign for us or united, we, or they, will have missed out on our or their no.1 choice, but as ballague says, the problem for torres, who in private does want a move to anfield or old trafford is that in this current climate not many players are going to turn down us or united.

Hmmmm, interesting I wonder who our number one target is then ?

Eto possibly  :suspect:
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