Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

There's been a bit of a debate raging on the "should they stay or go" thread about our league perfornances of late. Have we gone backwards, have we slipped further behind, are some of the players simply not up to it, is the manager messing around with the team too much etc etc etc. I was just wondering as there is plenty of "this summer is massively important as far as Rafa is concerned's" being bandied about, what would be acceptable in most peoples eyes IN THE PREMIERSHIP next season? Do we have to win the thing, or are we forever "two or three" players short of bringing it (the league title not the Premiership obviously) home?

Now few if any supporters would quibble about our performances in Europe, two from three Champions League Finals under Rafa is nothing short of a staggering achievement. Only one dodgy performance over two legs in three seasons (Benfica, (cheers Woof!) last term who we should definately have put out) indicate that when it comes to the finer points of tactical genius and chess board planning, we have the grand-master at the helm. What about the league though? Sorry but I couldn't start a thread like this without mentioning it, is a draw away to Sheffield Utd first game up acceptable or not? Here's my feelings:

I think last season we weren't actually good enough to get within nine points of the leaders. We kind of ran-on through beaten horses (sorry for the racing reference but it works here) in a sense that was perfectly summed up by Bad Bob in the aforementioned thread. Similarly, we aren't eighteen points worse than Man Utd this term. As they have gone head to head with Chelsea playing win at all costs football over the last couple of months, we've been poncing about with our minds elsewhere. My suspicion is that we finished five or six points closer than "fair value" last season, and we are five or six points further back than we should be this. This would mean that in contrast to what a couple of people are suggesting, I think we have marginally improved as a team and squad this season over last.

But is it a big enough improvement (if indeed there has been one, I know many will dispute my assertion) given the investment and our expectations? No it isn't is my opinion. In my opinion, we have shown on numerous occasions in head to head and knockout situations that we are capable of competing with the best teams on a level playing field. Therefore, and this is a simplistic way of looking at it I grant you, we should not be miles behind them in the league. Some would suggest the reason is simple, our players aren't good enough END OF!, but I don't accept that premise. Yes we haven't got a Christiano Ronaldo, or a Wayne Rooney, or a Didier Drogba, or a John Terry but we have got a Gerard, an Alonso, a Reina etc etc.

This is what it boils down to I guress really. I would accept that on a windy Tuesday night at Bolton, we have less players than the others in the top 4 who can turn a game on it's head with a goal from nothing or a flash of inspiration, but my feeling is that without the over-rotation at the start of the season we would be now competing for the Premeirship title. I think we gave away at least six or seven points in that period and we've never looked like pulling them back. Had we not cast away our chances so early in the piece, you would have seen an entirely different selection and ethos at the likes of Villa Park, Maine Road, Fratton Park etc etc. We failed there because it didn't really matter anymore. We need to play our strongest team until the league starts to pan out a bit (first ten games at least) and then rest players as the situation allows, and as they get tired (which I can't believe they are on the first game of the season).

  Whoever Rafa signs, and I've got no problem with his performance overall in the transfer market, in my opinion if next season when there are four games to go it is not mathematically possible that we can win the league title, it will have been a failure of a season.

[Stu.Murph]

I know its early, but you're just a big poof.

[bigmick]

Did make me smile Stu despite myself. Typical playground humour retort but kinda funny nontheless.

[Stu.Murph]

Did make me smile Stu despite myself. Typical playground humour retort but kinda funny nontheless.

I can't even be arsed with the footy chat at the minute. That many people's heads are spinning with the Champions league disguise its becoming embarressing to read at times.

I can't even be bothered defending my views or even writing them down in here, this could have been a thread I'd have gotten into a while ago, but the "In Rafa we trust" brigade are becoming extremely boring.

The fact of the matter is, Houllier finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, Rafa finished 5th, 3rd, possibly 3rd again yet is considered by people as the man to bring the title home.

I'm not saying I expect next season for us to win the title, but next seasons signings and league performances will define it all.

No excuses, no more player x needs two seasons to learn to trap a ball and no more he didn't have the money to spend, no more, we were unlucky.

I expect a minimum of a league season equal to what we had last season. A repeat of this season then serious questions need to be asked, as I've said so many times.

[Sabre]

Excellent post and promising thread.

IMHO Over Rotation is not the only factor to explain why we lost the league in the early stages of the season. I remember it was the same the season before.

Is Over-rotation the source of the problems? or is instead a reply from Rafa to try to solve deeper problems?

I think it's the latter. And here comes some facts:

* We have been signing up players in winter. Which in my book is not ideal. If you are signing up people in winter and you're desperate to do so, then it means you didn't make the homework in summer.

And yesteryear we were trying to sign up an unimpressive Victor in Winter, and thedeal was turned out in the last moment due to problems. That means that Rafa wasn't happy with the squad. I remember a couple of statements complaining about that. THis season we've brought Mascherano in winter aswell. If we dropped Hamman, it made sense to me that we brought a replace that improved the squad, after all we're a team that plays a lot of competitions, and our squad must be deep.

But somehow, nor this year, nor yesteryear, we had a compensated and deep squad at the start of the season. That must be a point in which we must do things well this summer. Winter market must be seen as an opportunity to get a bargain if available, if you look at it as the hope for your problems, then it means you didn't plan the squad well. Whether this is Rafa's fault, money's fault, it's debatable and I can't tell.

It would be good to win the CL to avoid previous qualifications rounds. A specific preseason to focus in the league and not having to play official games, change a lot the preseason.

So, for next season I'd ask to fix that problems, that I think are one of the reasons for latter over-rotation.

What would it be good enough? For me it would be good enough to reach the final 3 weeks with options to win the league. THen luck and football will decide who's the winner, but at least we should be closer.

[kunilson]

what would be good enough for me, would be to be within reach of the premiership title the whole way through.....whether we finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th the very least i want is for the points margin to be less than 10.
And if we win, well that will be just brilliant obviously. This summer, Rafa has the money, has no excuse anymore and so we have to show some champions sort of form, or at least begin to show it...obviously im talking in terms of the league and not the cups which he already has an outstanding record in.

I guess for him to somehow switch the brilliant mentality we have in Europe to the domestic....im sure he won't let us down.

[redtrader74]

Personally i would be happy if we can have a season where we are in with a chance of winning the title until the end. If we are competing, i believe the performances will keep improving because there is something to fight for, whereas this season died (in the league) from November.

For this to happen Rafa needs the funds to buy his first choice players rather than the second, third, choice he had to buy, ala Bellamy, Zenden etc.

Consequently we should have a season without the gutless, weak displays against Sheffield utd,(So Fu(ked off after this game, wished the season could start again) Neverton, Bolton and Blackburn. This is where we lost league, thats 11 points, never mind the meaningless games against newcastle and portsmouth. I firmly believe that Rafa is the right man, Yes, IN RAFA WE TRUST, but i get the impression he puts as much emphasis on negating these types of teams as he does the class ones, which is irrelevant because all they want to do is stay in EPL, have lower levels of talent, skill and manager, they should be swept aside.

I'm fed up with the comparisons of Houllier and Rafa, its different leagues with different issues, what is undeniable is that Houlliers budget for most of his time was a lot closer to the mancs and asnl, and imho i believe Benitez would have won the league with that squad.

It's just left for Benitez to prove he can choose the correct players, now that it seems the board are in a postion to back him.

Lastly i don't think CL disguises any of the failings in the league, it is a different competition, with different requirements to win it, but our success is testament to the managers qualities, which should indicate that he is a man we should readily be patient with.

[The Manhattan Project]

Within ten points of the Prem winners.

[redtrader74]

Within ten points of the Prem winners.

What even if they win the league with a month to spare and ease up in the last 5 games?

[The Manhattan Project]

What even if they win the league with a month to spare and ease up in the last 5 games?

I doubt that will happen. I think the Prem in the next few years at least will be competitive. Liverpool and Arsenal will get stronger. It was those dumb away results that cost us early. We need a far superior and more aggressive attitude. Instead of being scared and moaning about opposition tactics when we play games away to Everscum and Bolton we need to believe that we are going to kill them.

[El Nino_#9]

it does make me wonder whether rafa will keep the rotation policy even if he has more money to spend on top quality players.
for example will he buy 2 or 3 TOP QUALITY players and play them week in week out, or will he buy 5 or 6 SQUAD players and rotate like he is doing so now?

[account deleted by request]

I think it shows how far we have stepped back from last season by the ambitions and dreams of most posters on here. Before this season started I and most posters were excited at the prospect of a hard fought season that would see us make a determined effort to win the league or at least take it to the last few games.

Sadly this challenge never materialised our league season never even got off the ground. Take the CL out of the equation and this season has been a huge disappointment. Exclude the Mancs and Chelsea from the equation and we spent much much more than the rest of the prem last season, for no apparent improvement over the rest of the also rans. In fact we spent £26m , have fewer points and no cup runs apart from the season saving CL run.

I think it shows the level of my disappointment this term when I say I would ALMOST be happy with a cup and 3rd next season. FFS we are not supposed to be just a cup side, we are Liverpool if we dont win the fkn league we should be up there challenging! Is this what we are going to be saying every season, " we just need 3 more players".

As grateful as I am that our season has been saved by our fantastic CL run I just hope it doesnt blind everyone to the real truth, our squad is very good but we dont have anywhere near enough quality to win the league.  We all saw what happened to Chelsea when they lost Terry and Chech (even with their squad) Top class players make the all important difference when it comes to the crunch games, a great goal or a great save and you have 3 points.

I know its early but unless we buy 2/3 top quality players, next season is going to be a long hard road to 3rd at best. Get some top quality players in and we may yet see our team lift the league or at least make a decent stab at it. Dont forget Chelsea and the Mancs wont stand still, they will be buying as well!

[112-1077774096]

guys, only to win the league is good enough, thats a fact, anything else is not winning, its losing, doesnt matter how many points we have, how many signing etc, anything less than winning the league is failing in the league.

stu hits the nail on the head, no more excuses about bedding players in, the world cup, fatigue etc, only a win is good enough, anything else is a failure

[Espionage]

Did you guys forget the Charity Shield???

[112-1077774096]