Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

I'm merely demonstrating Stu that when you think somebody has lapsed into the state which we all fall from time to time, ie talking b0ll0cks it is possible to point it out without being rude You could be well advised to try a bit of erse kissing yourself if that's what you define it as. For me it's reasoned argument. You feckwwit

[Cool Hand Luke]

I know its early, but you're just a big poof.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

I read the whole of Mick’s post, was expecting some great debate and saw this, just myself laughing.

[Stu.Murph]

I know its early, but you're just a big poof.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

I read the whole of Mick’s post, was expecting some great debate and saw this, just myself laughing.

A rare moment of genius humour from Stu?

Or a childish comment which can easily be mistaken for the above... you decide...

[yckatbjywtbiastkamb]

i`m absolutely gobsmacked at some of the arrogance shown on these boards.
rafa should walk if things dont improve?
he has got to as many champions league finals in three seasons as legends like matt busby and alex ferguson achieved in their whole career`s put together, you can throw in tommy docherty, dave sexton, ron atkinson and wilf mcguiness into that too.
the great bill shankly only got as far as the semi`s.
when rafa took over this club it was virtually in meltdown, confidence was so low that we never turned around a one goal deficit in 2 years and we literally couldnt string 3 passes together.
the club had spent fortunes on players like diouf, cheyrou and biscan and it was hit and miss every year if we were going to qualify for the champions league - remember chelsea and even bradford turning us over late in the season to put us in the uefa cup. the club once famed for its pass and move style had become the biggest joke in football, the shame of sitting there listening to arsenal fans of all people shout `hoof` at us was unbearable. cruyff said if everyteam adopted liverpools style of play football would be dead as a spectator sport in three seasons, he was probably true.
for the first time in years anfield wasnt sold out every saturday.
gerrard and owen were virtually out the door, they couldnt see in any way whatsoever liverpool challenging for the main prizes. i couldnt myself.
it takes years to build a championship winning side, it took ferguson 6 years to win anything never mind the league and mourinho inherited a side that had finished second and had an open chequebook.
if rafa benitez finishes above chelsea anytime in his liverpool career considering their wealth and spending power i think that would be incredible.
rafa benitez saved my club, the club i watched dominate europe had become a fringe player and benitez has turned us into major players spending a fraction of the money his rivals have.
considering what he inherited and the impatience of fans these days i rate benitez alongside shankly and paisley.
i dont think even the great bob could have done anymore given the cards benitez has been dealt.
i hope to christ rafa doesnt read these boards because if i was him reading some of these comments i`d pack my bags and f**k of to madrid on the next flight and say go and get allardyce or o neil, and lets see how far you get with them.

[Penguins]

i`m absolutely gobsmacked at some of the arrogance shown on these boards.
rafa should walk if things dont improve?
he has got to as many champions league finals in three seasons as legends like matt busby and alex ferguson achieved in their whole career`s put together, you can throw in tommy docherty, dave sexton, ron atkinson and wilf mcguiness into that too.
the great bill shankly only got as far as the semi`s.
when rafa took over this club it was virtually in meltdown, confidence was so low that we never turned around a one goal deficit in 2 years and we literally couldnt string 3 passes together.
the club had spent fortunes on players like diouf, cheyrou and biscan and it was hit and miss every year if we were going to qualify for the champions league - remember chelsea and even bradford turning us over late in the season to put us in the uefa cup. the club once famed for its pass and move style had become the biggest joke in football, the shame of sitting there listening to arsenal fans of all people shout `hoof` at us was unbearable. cruyff said if everyteam adopted liverpools style of play football would be dead as a spectator sport in three seasons, he was probably true.
for the first time in years anfield wasnt sold out every saturday.
gerrard and owen were virtually out the door, they couldnt see in any way whatsoever liverpool challenging for the main prizes. i couldnt myself.
it takes years to build a championship winning side, it took ferguson 6 years to win anything never mind the league and mourinho inherited a side that had finished second and had an open chequebook.
if rafa benitez finishes above chelsea anytime in his liverpool career considering their wealth and spending power i think that would be incredible.
rafa benitez saved my club, the club i watched dominate europe had become a fringe player and benitez has turned us into major players spending a fraction of the money his rivals have.
considering what he inherited and the impatience of fans these days i rate benitez alongside shankly and paisley.
i dont think even the great bob could have done anymore given the cards benitez has been dealt.
i hope to christ rafa doesnt read these boards because if i was him reading some of these comments i`d pack my bags and f**k of to madrid on the next flight and say go and get allardyce or o neil, and lets see how far you get with them.

Thank you
I concur with everything you said.

[Cool Hand Luke]

I think we will fall about 10 points short of what we should have achieved this year. Although I am a big fan of reasoned rotation, Rafa has cost us some silly points with his over exuberant approach to the policy.

Also, I think Rafa has been to conservative with his tactics and subs, at times there have been games there for the taking if only he showed some balls and broke away from his original ideas. I think this factor has cost as many points as over rotation this year.

Rafa should have attempted to gain some momentum in the league before rotating so heavily, especially with 5 or 6 new players trying to integrate into the first team squad.

Overall I think we will be in better shape at the end of this season than last to plan an assault on the Premiership. The overall quality of the squad is a bit short but we have the right level of depth and shape in our squad which means Rafa can have a clear path in the transfer market rather than trying to fill in gaps and shift out dead wood.

I think many people are being way to pessimistic and even setting low goals for us, were closer to the title than some think. Our squad isn’t quite good enough and Rafa has made some blunders this year that have probably cost us about 10 points. But Rafa has built a path of progression that is clear for me to see, I feel we have direction and that is what is important. I maintain that we slightly over achieved in 2005/2006 with a virtual clean bill of health from November onwards. And this season we have slightly underachieved what with Rafa’s poor negotiation of the early part of the season and his inability to take points that are leaping out at him against the lesser teams.

Rafa has built a squad that suits him and his footballing ideas. It has taken him 3 years to do this and next year will be a big judgement year, because in my eyes he will be expected to test the title challenges. A similar season to this or even the one before wouldn’t leave me calling for his head but would leaving me asking questions of whether he has what it takes to win us the title. He needs to keep most of the squad and add 2 or 3 match winners who will make a significant difference to the first team.

[bigmick]

Yckat's post is an excellent one and I broadly agree with what he has said. But it doesn't really answer the original question in the topic title. What would he consider good enough in the league? Do we need to win it for people to be happy next season, will they settle for gradual improvement or is another season like this one fair enough? Rafa is indeed putting himself alongside the all-time great Liverpool managers with his exploits in Europe, but is our record in the league under him the most we can expect, or can we actually challenge for the title?

[Cool Hand Luke]

In Rafa’s first season and this one, success in the Champions League distracted people from his underachievement in the league both times.

This season I ruled us out of the winning the title before a ball had been kicked, I feel no shame in admitting that, it was my head that came to the conclusion not my heart.

If I end up ruling out a title challenge before the first game of the season next year I will be disappointed if Rafa as I feel he has the platform to plan a title challenge. We don’t have to win the title next year for it not to be a failure because there is still a gap to bridge, but as most people have said, we need to be contenders for the title for the vast majority of the season for it to be a season of acceptable progress.

[account deleted by request]

Again I agree with much being said by Cool Hand Luke, but the top and bottom of the whole discussion is that at home our results would have us challenging for the league. Our away form would have us struggling to make the top 10. Manchester City have managed to win as many games away as we have!

If we can sort our away form out I can see a title challenge next season(as Luke says we arn't THAT far away), if not then 3rd or 4th with maybe a cup run.

[Penguins]

nah, next season will be too early since it's the 1st year he might get his 1st choices. And wheater we like it or not our rivals have much more the finished product and only needs too maybe add one or 2 top class players we need more and the team that is there is still under construction.
It is not possible to change almost a whole squad of players in 3 years and expect them to perfectly mix together and know eachother like Manure who has built its team during a long period of time.  And since the league race was over early November or even earlier the lack of effort in games after new years I would put down to not much to play for.

I still expect around 80-85 pts but maybe not to come ahead of Chelski and Manure. Just not good enough attacking players. Would need 5-6 new ones if a title bid is to be made.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Again I agree with much being said by Cool Hand Luke, but the top and bottom of the whole discussion is that at home our results would have us challenging for the league. Our away form would have us struggling to make the top 10. Manchester City have managed to win as many games away as we have!

If we can sort our away form out I can see a title challenge next season(as Luke says we arn't THAT far away), if not then 3rd or 4th with maybe a cup run.

One of the issues I touched on before about Rafa being to conservative at times was an indirect comment about our away form. Rafa likes to play a certain way away from home but many times this year we have gone to away grounds and teams have sat back against us, this is a direct result of our form in the 2005/2006 season.

In games like this Rafa has failed to seize on the situation, we should have acted like a big team, we should have said “hold on a sec, you’re a team and your trying to lock the door on us, were gonna fu(king bang it down”. That may sound disrespectful and arrogant but is clear that on many occasions this year we have lacked the attitude of a team that believes it can beat any one on any ground.

If next year we are playing Man City away, at half time it is 0-0, they have been sitting in the own half and we haven’t been able to create anything because we are playing Sissoko and Mascherano in the centre. Would Rafa have the balls to say, “ it, I’m pulling out Sissoko and putting Gerrard at CM and putting on another striker to partner Kuyt”?

[Penguins]

Again I agree with much being said by Cool Hand Luke, but the top and bottom of the whole discussion is that at home our results would have us challenging for the league. Our away form would have us struggling to make the top 10. Manchester City have managed to win as many games away as we have!

If we can sort our away form out I can see a title challenge next season(as Luke says we arn't THAT far away), if not then 3rd or 4th with maybe a cup run.

I don't see it as much as our away form and more as not being able to break down defenses. At home the players are confident and the fans lift the players a little. This makes the whole team attack more.
Cause Liverpool, away or home always defend as aunit and attack as a unit.
in most away game opponent will still park the bus in front of goal and counter attack. And we lack 2-3 players at least who can work one-2s, break defenses open, be irrational and succeed. Like Cronaldo who just by himself gets 10 penalties himself a season. Cheap goals and cheap wins. Or work a quick counter with rooney and giggs so defenses can't cope with the speed and ball control.
Our players who should be doing that (Garcia, kewell, pennant, gonzales) are just injured or just not good enough.

It's good to defend as a unit but to attack as a unit makes u way too slow and predictable.

[yckatbjywtbiastkamb]

Yckat's post is an excellent one and I broadly agree with what he has said. But it doesn't really answer the original question in the topic title. What would he consider good enough in the league? Do we need to win it for people to be happy next season, will they settle for gradual improvement or is another season like this one fair enough? Rafa is indeed putting himself alongside the all-time great Liverpool managers with his exploits in Europe, but is our record in the league under him the most we can expect, or can we actually challenge for the title?

i`m not into predictions or targets infact i couldnt care less if we finished 15th, rafa is due a bad season.
what we`ve had under rafa these past 3 seasons other clubs would call them `glory years`, they`d tell stories and sing songs about these times untill the sun falls out the sky.
the most important thing to me is that whilst benitez is there in the hot seat i start every season with genuine hope of winning the title, thats all i want.....hope.
i`d lost hope under other managers but now i`ve got it back.
as someone who started going in the mid 70`s i`d never experienced what millions of other genuine football supporters must feel before even a ball is kicked and thats you have no chance of winning anything, by the time houllier came around i`d honestly conditioned myself that we had no chance even in august before they`d kicked a ball in anger.
that feeling was horrible.
where ever we finish next may i`ll start august with a spring in my step and hope in my heart and thats all i`ve ever asked of any liverpool manager.

[LFC2007]

It would be speculative to judge him on next season and the potential consequences of next season if he doesn't achieve success. Manager's need support and I don't think speculating about next season is the right way to go about it.

I like your posts LFC but this bit I have to take a little issue with. Of course it's "speculative", that's kind of the whole point of the thread and in a wider context, the forum itself.

I could have started the thread with the title, "would anybody care to speculate on where we will finish next season and what would be acceptable" but the "I know it's early" thing has become kind of a recurring theme with me over the years. Like I say it's a forum, and speculating, guessing, pontificating, assessing and offering opinions is what it's all about.

As for the supporting the manager thing. I live in New Zealand mate and have done for a few months now. I reckon I know my football a bit but whether or not I speculate on an interet forum isn't going to bother our manager one bit. It's actually my suspicion that even if I sat directly behind the bench at Anfield every week and went in armed with a loudhaler it still wouldn't have any effect on Rafa and nor should it. I am allowed to speculate though   

Mick, I have no problem with people giving their opinion on what is acceptable next season. It is the people who speculate about the potential consequences of not achieving that success next season that I disagree with, it is a very negative outlook to have. Some people for example were speculating that Rafa should walk if we do not achieve a certain amount next season. I think that is what is unreasonable about speculating. On a forum like this I'd expect nothing less than speculation about our future, I just think some is unreasonable and negative.

I am aware that the effect of one internet forum is unlikely to have a great effect on the manager, but many on the forum do attend matches. I'm not saying the opinions on here are entirely represented at matches, but they seem to represent a wide range of views and to those people who attend, just like me, I am saying we should not speculate about the 'potential consequences' of the manager. I just find it negative and unreasonable.

[kunilson]

of course its negative, but a forum about liverpool FC has to discuss all issues, positive or negative.
I can't speak for everyone else but what i was trying to put accross in my post was how would rafa deal with pressure of things turning negative, cos things usually do if your'e not winning....

but i do have full confidence in rafa, he has his eye in on the league, what is required for this league....i just want an indication that we are actually moving forwards and not stalling again...