Next season, i know it's early but... - What would be good enough in the league?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Sabre » Sat May 05, 2007 10:40 pm

Sometimes LFC2007, arguements are not to be confronted, but they complement each other.

Saying that I agree all you say would be saying too much, as you've made a lot of valid points this thread. But I do agree most of it, just as I agree yckatbjywtbiastkamb, one of the nicknames I never tried to spell, but that makes a lot of sense.

Bigmick's point about the relevance of a forum though, is spot on. Sometimes, it's necessary to realise what we are: a bunch of supporters talking about football. Sometimes, putting ourselves into context is a perfect complement for our opinions.

And putting our opinions in to context, is to accept that we're not influencing whatsoever to Rafa, nor LFC, THUS it doesn't make sense to argue too vehemently as if the match of day 23 depended on the discussion.

Let's be a  bit harsh with all us for once, If a real top league coach came here and read our opinions he'd say to himself "Clueless amateurs"  :) Here we are debating  people who not only know much less than the men taking decissions, but that we aren't following the daily routine of training sessions, and we don't manage the technical reports of the oppositions.

So it's nice to discuss, and in this case I agree you, but BM has a point putting our opinions into context.
Last edited by Sabre on Sat May 05, 2007 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Bench » Sun May 06, 2007 12:44 am

Been reading this thread all night. Some fascinating points have been made very well by some obviously very knowledgable liverpool fans. And for that i'm grateful.

It's so easy to say that we have a god given right to expect the league, we don't. we never did. what we did do was work hard and normally end up as champions as the best team in the land.

Right now we're not. But we are the team with greatest support.

Resources since the prem started have increased dramatically. Others have made the point already about the mancs and chelski havin more money etc, or arsenal managing their money better, and these are valid reasons why we haven't won what is our bread and butter.

Many have also decided to give the manager one more year before getting rid. Others don't blame him at all.

There are other points of  view but heres mine.

The club has had a cancer over the last few years that betrayed the fans beliefs. Expectation was taken as a given not a desire. Hope in our heart became expectancy in our heads.

The blame for our inability to compete in the league always has to live with the manager and the squad he employs. And ultimately, rightly so.

Our club is well known to support its manager fully, in order to bring stability and continuing success home.
This has been achieved, to some degree, throughout the last 7 years, we have won nearly twice as many trophies in this period than in the previous 10. But one has been missing, we know that.

This summer is the most pivotal this club has seen since shanks retired. The new owners are making the right noises and so far seem genuinely interested and impressed with what they've bought into. They rate the current manager(no doubt with a big piece of advice thrown in from the previous chairman) and have promised to back him financially. But you'd expect that.

This summer is probably the first year when rafa will have full control of the club. Heighway and all the hangers on from the academy will finally be marginalised in their influence on the board and the manager can put in place the youth structure he's been craving since he got here.

With the sale of the club the deadwood can finally be removed from the foundations and we can finally look forward to a club being run professionally on a business front and professionally and proficiently on a football front. (To clarify that point I have to say that it is my believe that the club has not ever exploited the reputation and the brand on a business front that other clubs all over europe do so well, this alone brings in resources, and can be done while maintaining morality, and secondly there were/are to many involved that think they know the 'liverpool way').

So in summary, suffice to say, I think a lot of the problems are internal ones, we need to finish 2nd at least, while taking it to the wire and if the new owners are to be believed then that is the least we can expect.

Sorry for the rant but I had to get that off my chest.
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Postby The Manhattan Project » Sun May 06, 2007 12:53 am

That guy from RTE said he expects Liverpool to win the treble and Serie A, otherwise Rafa is a failure in his eyes and Gerrard is overrated.
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Postby LFC2007 » Sun May 06, 2007 2:03 am

Sabre wrote:Sometimes LFC2007, arguements are not to be confronted, but they complement each other.

Saying that I agree all you say would be saying too much, as you've made a lot of valid points this thread. But I do agree most of it, just as I agree yckatbjywtbiastkamb, one of the nicknames I never tried to spell, but that makes a lot of sense.

Bigmick's point about the relevance of a forum though, is spot on. Sometimes, it's necessary to realise what we are: a bunch of supporters talking about football. Sometimes, putting ourselves into context is a perfect complement for our opinions.

And putting our opinions in to context, is to accept that we're not influencing whatsoever to Rafa, nor LFC, THUS it doesn't make sense to argue too vehemently as if the match of day 23 depended on the discussion.

Let's be a  bit harsh with all us for once, If a real top league coach came here and read our opinions he'd say to himself "Clueless amateurs"  :) Here we are debating  people who not only know much less than the men taking decissions, but that we aren't following the daily routine of training sessions, and we don't manage the technical reports of the oppositions.

So it's nice to discuss, and in this case I agree you, but BM has a point putting our opinions into context.

Sabre, I accept that a forum is going to be speculative and I agree with Mick. My point is not that we shouldn't look forward to next season and make a reasonable assessment of what we should expect, it is simply that we should not go on to make assumptions based on what could happen. That is to say, being speculative as to what should happen should we not achieve a certain amount. That is, in my opinion, a very negative way of looking at things. That was all I was saying, nothing more.
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Postby Owzat » Sun May 06, 2007 10:04 am

For me any boss needs to do the following when taking over at a club, some steps may be done already depending on what the club is :-

1. make the side competitive
2. win some games
3. make the side very difficult to beat
4. go on unbeaten runs
5. go on winning runs
6. win most of your home games
7. make your home a 'fortress' where few away sides win
8. win more games away than you lose
9. win 80%+ of home games, 60%+ of away games
10. achieve step 9 consistently and you will be in title contention

Rafa is currently stuck at step 7, we've won 77.78% of home games but only 31.60% of away games. Until we crack the away problem we will not win the league - simple as.

Home Records 2006/7

1. Man Utd P18 W15 D2 L1 PTS 47
2. Liverpool P18 W14 D3 L1 PTS 45
3. Chelsea P17 W12 D5 L0 PTS 41
4. Arsenal P18 W12 D5 L1 PTS 41
5. Portsmouth P18 W11 D4 L3 PTS 37
6. Everton P19 W11 D4 L4 PTS 37

Away Record 2006/7

1. Man Utd P18 W13 D2 L3 PTS 41
2. Chelsea P18 W12 D3 L3 PTS 39
3. Arsenal P18 W7 D4 L7 PTS 25
4. Bolton P19 W7 D3 L9 PTS 24
5. Liverpool P19 W6 D4 L9 PTS 22
6. Blackburn P18 W6 D3 L9 PTS 21
7. Man City P18 W6 D3 L9 PTS 21

If you put both Man Utd's home and away records in an overall home and away table they'd BOTH be top five ie their away record is better than most home records.

Goals For 2006/7

1. Man Utd 83
2. Chelsea 62
3. Arsenal 62
4. Liverpool 55
5. Tottenham 52
6. Everton 51

Goals Away 2006/7

1. Chelsea 22
2. Liverpool 25
3. Man Utd 26
4. Arsenal 34
5. Everton 35
6. Aston Villa 39

We've scored 37 goals at home at 2.06 goals/game, but only 18 goals away from home at 0.95 goals/game - 10 of which came in just 3 games at Charlton (W3-0), Watford (W3-0) and Wigan (W4-0) who could end up being the three teams relegated. Not surprisingly our away GD was negative

Results by current league position (2006/7)

01-04 : P6 W2 D0 L4 F6 A8 PTS 6 (pts/game 1.00)
05-10 : P12 W5 D3 L4 F13 A10 PTS 18 (pts/game 1.50)
11-16 : P12 W6 D4 L0 F18 A5 PTS 22 (pts/game 1.83)
17-20 : P7 W7 D0 L0 F18 A2 PTS 21 (pts/game 3.00)

Most telling is we beat each and every side currently in the bottom half that we've played at home but in contrast only beat the bottom four away from home :-

Bottom Half (2006/7)

Home - P9 W9 D0 L0 F22 A2 PTS 27
Away - P10 W4 D4 L2 F14 A5 PTS 16

Top Half (2006/7)

Home - P9 W5 D3 L1 F15 A3 PTS 18
Away - P9 W2 D0 L7 F4 A15 PTS 6

Too many dropped points at home to sides like Blackburn, Everton and Portsmouth, way too many defeats away to the likes of Newcastle, Portsmouth, Everton, Blackburn, Fulham and Bolton. We got 3 points from those 9 games when we should be looking at 10-15 or maybe more
Last edited by Owzat on Sun May 06, 2007 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby metalhead » Sun May 06, 2007 10:12 am

Interesting stats Owzat, I think I agree, we need to fix our away problem inorder to compete for the title.

As stu said in other threads Rafa Benitez should buy a quality left winger, quality center back, a quality striker and a quality right back.

If we add these players into our squad (I said quality, not average) I think we will be a difficult side to beat.

Another thing, Rafa needs to be consistant with his tactics. i.e, needs to know when to put alonso or sissoko in games (as other posters reflected in this issue), or when to overrotate or rotate infact!
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Postby Owzat » Sun May 06, 2007 10:31 am

Problem is we need to be aiming at around 85-90 points and it will be hard to improve on our home form, in fact 57 points is the absolute maximum, so we would still need to be picking up 30+ points away from home. That needs goals, fair enough wingers who can cross will supply some but we still need to put chances away. I reckon trying to prise Berbatov away from Tottenham is worth a go even if the claim Jol wouldn't sell him for £40m are true. Tottenham need more than one or two top notch players to break into the top four, actual £20m-£25m offers will be harder to turn down than hypothetical ones.

I think the best approach is to just play like we do at home away from home, not throw caution to the wind but perhaps try less to control the game and simply accept we're losing games away from home anyway so keeping it tight isn't the best way to go. Take away the 12 goals scored away to the bottom four and we scored just 6 goals in the other FIFTEEN games - that's pathetic. Not being funny but one of our worst results has to be away to Man City who haven't scored at home in the league since New Year's Day and have just recorded the least goals scored at home in ANY top flight season.

As for Sissoko, I'm afraid I'd sell him. Too one dimensional, wins the ball then gives it away, sometimes too rash in the challenge and the passing side of his game is not great. I'd much rather have a more all-round midfielder in there
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Postby LFC #1 » Sun May 06, 2007 2:25 pm

Bad Bob wrote:What I expect next season, at a minimum, is:

1) a start that keeps us at, or within 3-5 points of, the top of the table for a least three months (thereby testing Mick's theory about how much more effectively we'd play against the league's lesser lights when we're still in the title hunt)

2) an unbeaten record at Anfield (preferably all wins)

3) no more than 3 losses all season

4) an unbeaten record against teams in places 7-20, with maximum points taken from teams in the bottom half of the table

5) at least 5 points earned from our visits to SB, OT and Emirates

6) Still being in the title race by the end of April

I think these are realistic targets given our current squad, spruced up with a few quality attacking players.  The rest is down to luck.  Oh, and--dare I say it--it might not be the worst thing ever if we find ourselves out of the Champions League at a relatively early stage next year (but I'm not holding my breath on that). :nod

Wow pretty tough. That would give us at least 85-90 points with rough calcualtion and we'd go damn close to winning the league.
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Postby EddieC » Sun May 06, 2007 3:16 pm

Apologies if some of this has already been mentioned, I haven't had time to read the whole thread.

The key for me this summer, is not going overboard in the transfer market. One of the main reasons I believe Man Utd have been so successful this season is the fact that they had a settled squad with only one major signing in the summer, Carrick. On the other hand we brought in Bellamy, Kuyt, Pennant, Gonzales, Aurelio & Paletta. This was unavoidable, as Rafa still didn't have all the players he needed, but he's had 6 transfer windows now, and seems to have the bulk of the squad that he needs.

These major changes in personnel are for me the reason we had such a bad start this season & last. Remember the summer before we also signed Crouch, Zenden, Reina & Sissoko, with Cisse basically being like a new player having come back from injury. Whenever you bring new players in it is going to take them time to gel, and unfortunately you won't get the best out of them until they have. In our first 10 league games of the season we dropped 16 points. Ok 6 of them were against Manure & Sh!tski, but the other 10 were against Sheff Utd, Blackburn, Bolton & Everton, all teams we should have been beating, but due to an unsettled squad we didn't. Add these points back on to our tally, and assume we would've actually tried & won in the last two games if there was somethng riding on it, and it would leave us only 5 points behind Utd, and currently 3 points ahead of Chelsea. These dropped points at the start of the season are definately what cost us, as it did at the start of last season.

However this summer I don't see us needing to make wholesale changes, just two wingers and a striker to come, with Voronin who we've already signed. I expect to see Dudek, Zenden, Cisse, Bellamy, Fowler & Le Tallec leave in the summer, probably raising about £15m between them. Added to the £40m that is being mentioned a lot (although neither Gillett or Hicks has mentioned a figure) would give us £55m, enough to get three world class players for those positions. The rest of our squad is fine, we are defensively sound, and probably have the best central midfield options in the world at the moment, all we need is a couple of players who can produce a bit of magic out of nothing. Our major problem this season has been unlocking teams when they put 10 men behind the ball, we need our own Ronaldo or Kaka who can do this with one moment of skill. That is the difference between league and cup, in cups teams have to beat you, in the league you will always get some teams playing for a draw. At the moment we don't have the right tools in our box to break down teams when they do this, Luis Garcia is probably our best at doing it, but we could still do with someone better, and one player isn't enough anyway.

Going back to this season, I feel we haven't really moved forward from last season in terms of end product, but in terms of the squad we've put together I feel we are a lot stronger. Pepe, despite a couple of slip ups at the start of the season, has been immense for us, and has had a superb back four in front of him. Agger this season has really come of age, and proved himself to be more than worthy of replacing Hyypia. The only thing that concerns me for the future in defence is where our aerial prescence will come from when Hyypia leaves? Hopefully when he goes (probably at the end of next season) we'll buy someone equally as good in the air. Arbeloa, whilst it's still early days, seems to have settled into the squad immediately, following a baptism of fire marking Messi & dealing with it like a seasoned pro. He was coached by Rafa in Real Madrid's youth team though, so probably had a good idea what was expected before he came. The major thing that has impressed me with our defence this season is the level of communication amongst all the players, not just the ones playing regularly. Last season our first choice defence was amazing, but take one player out of it and it all went to pot. Yesterday we had a defence of Insua, Hyypia, Paletta & Arbeloa, and whilst they weren't all individually great, the way they worked as a unit was spot on.

In midfield, we now have the best options in the centre out of any club in the world IMO. Alonso started off the season very slowly, a lot of it I think was down to complacency. It was always either Gerrard & Alonso in the middle, or Gerrard on the right, which meant Alonso played with Sissoko. He was pretty much guaranteed his place in the starting 11, apart from the odd times Rafa thought Zenden in the middle was a good idea, and it showed. However since the arrival of Mascherano he seems to have had a bit of a rocket up his @rse, and is playing a lot better. Sissoko hasn't lived up to the hype of last year, but remember he is still a young lad who, from what I've heard from Spanish friends, had the best season of his career and possibly set the bar too high to be able to live up to expectations. He is still a very promising player, I think people just need to accept him for what he is and stop expecting more of him. He is a destroying midfielder, very handy for playing against teams who like to pass the ball as he doesn't give you any time on the ball. However that's pretty much where his talents end, he can't pass well & he can't dribble. He is a useful player to have when the gameplan is to stop the other team playing, but not so useful when the plan is to play round the opposition, for this reason quite strangely he's a player for the big games, but not the less challenging ones. There's not really much I need to say about Gerrard, we all know what he can do. Had a relatively quiet season by his standards, but still been our best midfielder. Mascherano has been a great acquisition since arriving, Hayden Mullins & Nigel Reo-Coker must be great players to keep this lad out of the West Ham side. A slightly different option to Alonso, ideal for when the opposition has a Sissoko type player. Hasn't got the same range of passing as Alonso, but doesn't need as much time on the ball, and can handle being pressured more. On the wings, all I'm going to say is we don't have enough class. Pennant is good enough to give our first choice a rest, but for me hasn't shown enough consistency to warrant being a first choice winger, especially considering he's played more games than any other outfield player this season. On the left, Kewell is our best option, but will he ever be fit? Luis Garcia can play a role, but isn't an out & out winger, he'll cut inside more than he'll beat a man & get a cross in. Definate strengthening needed on both wings in the summer.

Up front, We definately need a world class finisher, for me either Villa or Eto'o. I feel our current crop though, have suffered from the lack of decent wingers. From what I can see, tactically Rafa has managed to pull the wool over the fans eyes. He came here using 4-2-3-1 and we didn't like it, and cried out for 4-4-2. Rather than doing this, I feel Rafa has essentially stuck with the principles of a 4-2-3-1, but used Kuyt in the 'attacking midfielder' role but slightly further forward, giving the impression of two strikers & therefore a 4-4-2 formation. Personally I don't have a problem with this, but for the 4-2-3-1 to work you have to have quality wingers. The formation involves the Central midfield being very defensive so your midfield creativity needs to come from your wide men. Unfortunately there's been no real service from our wide men for most of the season, and a shocking lack of goals. As a result of the lack of goals from the team in general, the strikers have been the ones taking the flack. I personally feel Crouch & Kuyt have not done a bad job this season, Kuyt has worked his socks off without really having anyone there to benefit from the work, and don't forget he's still scored more than Drogba did in his first season. Crouch has been a solid performer this season, I don't care what anyone says. Anyone still knocking him by now has to be doing it purely because of his appearance. He has the best goals per minutes played ratio at the club this season, whilst still providing essential hold up play too. Given better service next season, and a world class strike partner, I feel both Kuyt & Crouch will benefit and become even better players. Bellamy for me has not done enough, as a pace player I think Cisse is a better option. For the sort of player he is, playing on the shoulder of the last defender, he gets caught offside far too much. Personally with Eto'o or Villa hopefully arriving, neither of whom's short of pace, there will be no space for him, or Cisse, in our squad.

All in all, as I said at the start of the post, I feel the key is essential changes only in the summer. Just because we have the money now, we don't need to start spending it just for the sake of it. A bit of attacking flair is all we're really missing, the rest of the team is solid & settled, so for me it has to be just the two wingers and a striker. This is exactly what I said our first team needed last summer, however last summer we also needed a few more squad players, which we have now so I'd say we've made a slight bit of progress this season. With Mourinho quite possibly going in the summer, and Manure seeming to be pinning their hopes on Torres for the next season, who mark my words will not turn out to be a good signing, the Premiership will be there for the taking. Financially we will be in a position to take it, I don't think he will but Rafa will have no excuses if he does get it wrong.
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Postby RedBlood » Sun May 06, 2007 3:17 pm

i would expect us to atleast challenge for the title next season

and to retain our european cup  :buttrock
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Postby Bad Bob » Sun May 06, 2007 7:44 pm

LFC #1 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:What I expect next season, at a minimum, is:

1) a start that keeps us at, or within 3-5 points of, the top of the table for a least three months (thereby testing Mick's theory about how much more effectively we'd play against the league's lesser lights when we're still in the title hunt)

2) an unbeaten record at Anfield (preferably all wins)

3) no more than 3 losses all season

4) an unbeaten record against teams in places 7-20, with maximum points taken from teams in the bottom half of the table

5) at least 5 points earned from our visits to SB, OT and Emirates

6) Still being in the title race by the end of April

I think these are realistic targets given our current squad, spruced up with a few quality attacking players.  The rest is down to luck.  Oh, and--dare I say it--it might not be the worst thing ever if we find ourselves out of the Champions League at a relatively early stage next year (but I'm not holding my breath on that). :nod

Wow pretty tough. That would give us at least 85-90 points with rough calcualtion and we'd go damn close to winning the league.

Tough, indeed, but the bar is set very high in the league at the moment and the margin for error is very small.  We need to up our game in all departments to be competitive: at home, on the road, against the Big 4, against the small clubs, out of the blocks, during the run-in, etc.  Nothing short of consistent excellence from pillar to post will give us a shot at the title these days.
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Postby Emerald Red » Mon May 07, 2007 3:11 am

The Manhattan Project wrote:That guy from RTE said he expects Liverpool to win the treble and Serie A, otherwise Rafa is a failure in his eyes and Gerrard is overrated.

Who, Dumphy?

Ack, he's just having a laugh, even though he doesn't know it! F*ck him!
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Postby Emerald Red » Mon May 07, 2007 3:13 am

Stu.Murph wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:
peewee wrote:guys, only to win the league is good enough, thats a fact, anything else is not winning, its losing, doesnt matter how many points we have, how many signing etc, anything less than winning the league is failing in the league.

stu hits the nail on the head, no more excuses about bedding players in, the world cup, fatigue etc, only a win is good enough, anything else is a failure

Agree completely....

This is what 16 years or so does without winning the title. You settle for anything that's remotly decent or at least looks good mathematically on the league table, so at least we can say "yeah, we're close. Next year is ours!" How many of us have been saying this for years and years during the 90's? I know I have. A lot of friend and fellow supporters accept it this way. I don't. I agree: we need to win the league or at least get very close to it with at least 2 cups won, or Rafa needs to walk.



He deserves the full five years, but next season will be his fourth and we MUST improve next season considerabley. I expect at least around 85 points, give or take a couple.

Is that what I said? We MUST improve, if not next season, then when? You're after 85 points in the league? So, technically, you're asking for the league to be won, because that's usually good enough to win it.

Check your facts.

:laugh:

85+ points is usually good enough to win the league, yes! FACT!
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Postby kunilson » Mon May 07, 2007 10:26 am

yes that was a fact a couple of years ago.....but the last 3 seasons the champions have had 91 points, 95 points and 90 points.

Times are hard, and theres hardly any room for slip ups anymore...

BUT with a better premiership chase from Liverpool and Arsenal, the champions may have less points at the end of next season's campaign....we need better results especially against smaller teams and against the big teams. Arsenal managed to beat manure home and away, draw with chelsea twice and beat us once...teams like tottenham need to step up in quality a bit more....all thats changed this season is manure have stepped up to chelsea's level, the rest of the prem has stalled.
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Postby Effes » Mon May 07, 2007 10:37 am

Emerald Red wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:
peewee wrote:guys, only to win the league is good enough, thats a fact, anything else is not winning, its losing, doesnt matter how many points we have, how many signing etc, anything less than winning the league is failing in the league.

stu hits the nail on the head, no more excuses about bedding players in, the world cup, fatigue etc, only a win is good enough, anything else is a failure

Agree completely....

This is what 16 years or so does without winning the title. You settle for anything that's remotly decent or at least looks good mathematically on the league table, so at least we can say "yeah, we're close. Next year is ours!" How many of us have been saying this for years and years during the 90's? I know I have. A lot of friend and fellow supporters accept it this way. I don't. I agree: we need to win the league or at least get very close to it with at least 2 cups won, or Rafa needs to walk.



He deserves the full five years, but next season will be his fourth and we MUST improve next season considerabley. I expect at least around 85 points, give or take a couple.

Is that what I said? We MUST improve, if not next season, then when? You're after 85 points in the league? So, technically, you're asking for the league to be won, because that's usually good enough to win it.

Check your facts.

:laugh:

85+ points is usually good enough to win the league, yes! FACT!

The last 3 seasons 2nd place got

2004 - 79 pts
2005 - 83 pts
2006 - 83 pts

So yea, 85 would have been enough to win the league.
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