Liverpool FC Forum

by **kalos** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:19 pm

Quote (kalos @ Oct. 05 2006,21:43)
If you're not deriving any satisfaction from your own game when playing a particular way why the heck would you want to continue playing it...?

simple, for the name you are allowed to represent on the field of play. Liverpool football club. its not 'sky one celebs' or 'championship manager' type stuff.

the real world thats full of real honest people who pay good wages to see their club achieve its aims. whoever the 'stars' are, this club will be around a lot longer than steve gerrard. as sublime a player as he is.... play to your strengths? well, we have been doing. where gerrard is pulled out of his 'favoured' position to operate on the left and do a job, is because the fella that is supposed to be doing it there - isnt.

it just happens to be that, like emlyn hughes or jamie carragher etc... Gerrard can do a multitude of good things in several key areas of a football pitch. he may well prefer to be played centrally or on the right of midfield where he feels he can do GREAT things but, because of the ineptitude of others he, naturally provides an option that compensates somewhat for that. whether its the solution, time will tell.

but to say he's being wasted is a bit extreme, more like a sacrifice the team could do without making, id say. particularly at the moment with poor performances all over the place. but it will click, eventually.
[quote]

red37 please take that last sentence in the context of my entire post. I agree with you totally that if necessary for the ODD game Gerrard can be used to expose the opposition or indeed cancel them out (A la Sergio in Instanbul when SG virtually played RB for the latter stages of the game)

What I'm talking about is SG is having to regularly make up for other's ineptitude. It's fine that he should appreciate playing for LFC and I've no doubt he does. But if he truly believes that LFC are not getting the best out of him and vice versa can we blame him if he gets fed up with it and rethinks his future?[I]

by **Espionage** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:00 am

Ciggy wrote:
Espionage wrote:But at the end of the day I seriously doubt that Rafa saw anything in Gerrard's recent performances there that would lead him to rethink it as an option.

Its not an option though is it?
Its putting the shackles on our best player, the same as Sven trying to fit Lampard and Gerrard into midfield when it doesnt work.
Play Gerrard on the right or CM let him do the job he is best at bombing forward and scoring cracker goals drawing fouls in and around the area.
We havent had a captain IMO this season because the captain is p.issed off and I dont blame him.
Why not play Alonso or Sissoko out wide?
Why is Gerrard being asked to play in 3 positions this season?
Its doing Liverpool no good, the fans in the Gerrard camp hate it.
Play him where you can get the best out of him or dont play him atall.

I disagree with the term shackles, we cant play Sissoko or Alonso out their because they are not suited to it and I think spends alot of his time infield anyway so he doesnt really play that wide.

Anyway, this arguement is getting boring, we have heard both sides of the story and it doesnt seem like anyone is going to compromise. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one :upside:

by **stmichael** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:21 pm

I was thinking about England''s latest example of how not to play football and I was thinking that much of it boils down to a lack of creativity in the centre of the park. At present Lampard and Hargreaves/Carrick/Parker are stationed there, none of whom have the ability to beat a player and none of whom are great at playing subtle through balls (perhaps Carrick is the exception but as he sits in front of the back four he isn't really in the position to do this).

In some ways this problem is echoed at LFC, where we also stick Gerrard out on the right. The centre is patrolled by Alonso and Sissoko, neither of whom waltz past players for fun. I think Alonso could be a great playmaker if he were higher up the pitch, but as he is mainly around the centre circle he doesn't have the opportunity to split a well-drilled defence. For the moment at least Sissoko simply doesn't have the guile required to do this.

This leaves us with a problem then, as we rely heavily on Gerrard and Gonzalez (or whoever is on the left) for real creativity.
If we compare ourselves with Arsenal and United you can see how they have more creative options through the centre in Scholes and Fabregas, while they also have skilful players in wide positions (Giggs, Ronaldo, Hleb, Ljungberg etc). By sticking with Alonso and Sissoko I think that we can't help but narrow our possibilities of scoring as we don't create enough real chances to score. Although Arsenal haven't been great over the past two seasons they have always created great opportunities, while United struggled when Fergie fiddled with a winning system.

My concern is that to win the league now you have to win more games than ever before, and that means you have to create more opportunities than ever before. While Sissoko and Alonso bring a great stability to the side, I think that they also narrow our options, and could affect our title chances.
Here are some possibilities that I think could be explored:

1) Swap Alonso and Sissoko. Right now Momo doesn't have the awareness to be a flat out DM, but he could surely pick this up. This would allow Alonso to play higher up the pitch and slie balls through to the striker.

2) Rip up the plan and bring in a real DM, like Hargreaves.

3) Play a flat out 4-2-3-1 by either buying a top right winger who scores goals, or by bringing in a Riquelme-like man and keep Gerrard on the right of the 3.

TBH I think all of these options have huge flaws, but I really can't see the current line-up doing enough to win the league.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:10 pm

stmichael wrote:I was thinking about England''s latest example of how not to play football and I was thinking that much of it boils down to a lack of creativity in the centre of the park. At present Lampard and Hargreaves/Carrick/Parker are stationed there, none of whom have the ability to beat a player and none of whom are great at playing subtle through balls (perhaps Carrick is the exception but as he sits in front of the back four he isn't really in the position to do this).

In some ways this problem is echoed at LFC, where we also stick Gerrard out on the right. The centre is patrolled by Alonso and Sissoko, neither of whom waltz past players for fun. I think Alonso could be a great playmaker if he were higher up the pitch, but as he is mainly around the centre circle he doesn't have the opportunity to split a well-drilled defence. For the moment at least Sissoko simply doesn't have the guile required to do this.

This leaves us with a problem then, as we rely heavily on Gerrard and Gonzalez (or whoever is on the left) for real creativity.
If we compare ourselves with Arsenal and United you can see how they have more creative options through the centre in Scholes and Fabregas, while they also have skilful players in wide positions (Giggs, Ronaldo, Hleb, Ljungberg etc). By sticking with Alonso and Sissoko I think that we can't help but narrow our possibilities of scoring as we don't create enough real chances to score. Although Arsenal haven't been great over the past two seasons they have always created great opportunities, while United struggled when Fergie fiddled with a winning system.

My concern is that to win the league now you have to win more games than ever before, and that means you have to create more opportunities than ever before. While Sissoko and Alonso bring a great stability to the side, I think that they also narrow our options, and could affect our title chances.
Here are some possibilities that I think could be explored:

1) Swap Alonso and Sissoko. Right now Momo doesn't have the awareness to be a flat out DM, but he could surely pick this up. This would allow Alonso to play higher up the pitch and slie balls through to the striker.

2) Rip up the plan and bring in a real DM, like Hargreaves.

3) Play a flat out 4-2-3-1 by either buying a top right winger who scores goals, or by bringing in a Riquelme-like man and keep Gerrard on the right of the 3.

TBH I think all of these options have huge flaws, but I really can't see the current line-up doing enough to win the league.

Are you Macca from talksport or nicking his posts ?

Either way thats a good question :;):

by **red37** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:21 pm

thats about the 6th time ive seen someone question the authenticity of st.michaels posts....

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:38 pm

stmichael wrote:I was thinking about England''s latest example of how not to play football and I was thinking that much of it boils down to a lack of creativity in the centre of the park. At present Lampard and Hargreaves/Carrick/Parker are stationed there, none of whom have the ability to beat a player and none of whom are great at playing subtle through balls (perhaps Carrick is the exception but as he sits in front of the back four he isn't really in the position to do this).

In some ways this problem is echoed at LFC, where we also stick Gerrard out on the right. The centre is patrolled by Alonso and Sissoko, neither of whom waltz past players for fun. I think Alonso could be a great playmaker if he were higher up the pitch, but as he is mainly around the centre circle he doesn't have the opportunity to split a well-drilled defence. For the moment at least Sissoko simply doesn't have the guile required to do this.

This leaves us with a problem then, as we rely heavily on Gerrard and Gonzalez (or whoever is on the left) for real creativity.
If we compare ourselves with Arsenal and United you can see how they have more creative options through the centre in Scholes and Fabregas, while they also have skilful players in wide positions (Giggs, Ronaldo, Hleb, Ljungberg etc). By sticking with Alonso and Sissoko I think that we can't help but narrow our possibilities of scoring as we don't create enough real chances to score. Although Arsenal haven't been great over the past two seasons they have always created great opportunities, while United struggled when Fergie fiddled with a winning system.

My concern is that to win the league now you have to win more games than ever before, and that means you have to create more opportunities than ever before. While Sissoko and Alonso bring a great stability to the side, I think that they also narrow our options, and could affect our title chances.
Here are some possibilities that I think could be explored:

1) Swap Alonso and Sissoko. Right now Momo doesn't have the awareness to be a flat out DM, but he could surely pick this up. This would allow Alonso to play higher up the pitch and slie balls through to the striker.

2) Rip up the plan and bring in a real DM, like Hargreaves.

3) Play a flat out 4-2-3-1 by either buying a top right winger who scores goals, or by bringing in a Riquelme-like man and keep Gerrard on the right of the 3.

TBH I think all of these options have huge flaws, but I really can't see the current line-up doing enough to win the league.

I'm sorry mate but I'm not having that. This midfield threesome--Gerrard on the right with Momo and Xabi through the middle--played together for the majority of our matches last season and, lest we forget, we racked up 82 points. That's a massive number of points coming from an inferior side to the one we have now. We currently get more pace, more width, more creativity and much more bottle from our attacking personnel than we ever saw last season (swapping Morientes and Cisse for Bellamy and Kuyt, adding Gonzales, Pennant and Aurelio has made a huge difference). And, they are just going to get better as they grow more familiar with one another and take Rafa's tactics on board. How is adding these creative players to the tried-and-tested midfield trio that enjoyed so much success last season 'narrowing' our attacking options, exactly?

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:29 pm

No the anaysis doesn't work for me either. In contrast to this new slant on the lack of attacking potency, I think we posess the personel to damage all teams in all games if we play to our potential. Like Bob said we amassed a huge total of points last season despite our early-term goalscoring problems, and few would contest that Rafa has improved the squad from where we stood then.

The answer isn't to break up the central-midfield axis of Sissoko and Alonso, anymore than it is the baffling idea to play Gerrard on the left. No, the way forward is to stick with the parts which you know will work (that midfield trio being a good example) and use the new recruits to cover for injuries and improvements.

The reasons we aren't scoring enough goals are because we aren't attacking with enough fluency, too many players are off form and we are missing too many chances. The root cause of this isn't that the players aren't good enough in my opinion. It maybe there isn't a root cause and it's just one of those things, it could be that we've just been unlucky or it could be of course that by over-rotation we've made it very difficult for players to find consistency and a collective fluency. we've done the argument to death so there's no point re-stating my position, but it's not a lack of quality or anything that necessatates a radical re-think as to the way we play, of that I'm certain.

by **red37** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:21 pm

im not buying into that theory either. the vast majority of Liverpool fans deserve a little more credit than that anyway. and for me it is as effectively simple a mantra now, as it was back then - pass the ball to a red shirt and you cant go far wrong. maybe the current regime is trying to live and breath that into the players on a daily basis...maybe they see fit to disagree, some of them. then their attitudes will have to be altered for the greater good of the club. but at the end of the day a football pitch is only the canvas for the artists to demonstrate their work upon. and they are in the process of adjusting to each others role in making as little or as much use of that space without detriment to the overall picture, when both in and out of possession of the ball. perhaps that too is a basic requisite the exponents of 'total' football were simply displaying when the phrase first was coined. but it does take a while to master. patience is also a simple virtue but one frequently spurned in place of haste.

it remains a very simple game to this day still really, although often complicated by the unwillingness to, or at least lack of confidence in adapting to, new principles within it, that tends to throw up far too much mud into what should be clear waters.

for me this 'axis' of Gerrard, Sissoko and Alonso debate, notleast being a no-brainer, is part of the way forward for the teams quest for fluent application of their ideas. and not something that, having taken a while to recognise, should then be ripped up and started afresh. otherwise rafa has been wasting his time, the clubs resources and our sanity for the last 2-3 years. now you realise why the likes of joaquin were over-looked when the rest of us were clamouring for a RW. we have the best one in europe already here. if only he'd realise that for himself.. and credit for that goes to the manager who has the balls big enough to pioneer this football club back into the annals of a history painted for so long with the blood red of Liverpool.

last season, solid foundations were layed for the progress of the club. infact, over the tenure of Benitez the club has been transformed in my opinion season after season. you dont get this far down the line to declare those efforts a failure...lets just say, we are on the right track...it just remains to be seen how far off is the destination. and there is only one man who knows the answer to that question. i think the above is basically another way of saying an all too overworked expression used on these boards, one that needs no repeating here. but it is a true one nevertheless.

what there is thats fixed, do not change in other words. the rest will eventually fall into place.

by **red37** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:50 am

interesting insight into Rafa's view on rotation.( sorry i dont know how to highlight in bold the interviewers questions)

**********************************************

RAFA BENITEZ

Having lost Dirk Kuyt to injury sustained on international duty for Holland and three games against Blackburn Rovers, Bordeaux and Manchester United to play within the space of seven days, Rafa Benitez will be expected to once again rotate his resources this weekend. Sue McCann caught up with Benitez to hear his views on squad rotation and progressing as a manager in England.

People seem fascinated that you rotate your squad every game. However, does that not mean that your squad are hungry and fresh because you aren’t playing the same 11 each week, plus you rarely hear complaints from your players in the press?

“We try to explain to our players why we decide to rotate. It’s not possible to play 60-65 games 100% fit, it’s impossible now with the tempo and the football. People talk about 20, 30, 50 years ago but it’s different, now you can play with a really, really high tempo and after you finish the game you might need to fly to another country to play another really, really important game and come back and a few days later play another important game against a tough team, with a lot of physical contact. All these things are important for us and then we know how the players are. It’s important to know your players and explain to them what the situation is and why you decide to do things. You need to do the same training with all of your squad of players because if you do this then you can rotate. It’s not a big difference if you change a full back for another one if he knows what to do. If you have a big name (player) of course you can lose something but if the big name is tired then he’s not 100% fit and it’s better to use another member of the squad because he may be 80% of the level (of talent) of the other but he wants to play, he’s desperate for play and that means he can compensate this difference.”

Was squad rotation the norm is Spain because in Britain many people clearly still have not quite got their heads around it?

“In Spain I had the experience in Valencia when in the first year we won La Liga with Valencia after 31 years without winning the league and against Real Madrid, Barcelona, Deportivo and Atletico Madrid. And why? Because we were changing the team every game and in January we were 8 points behind Real Madrid and we finished 6 or 7 points ahead. Why? Because we were fresh at the end of the season, the last two or three months we were really, really fresh and we were playing at another level.”

Three months into your third season as a manager in English football, have you changed at all as a manager in this period and if so in what ways?

“I think you always change a little bit. Especially here (in English football) people start talking about the English style and the tempo of the Premiership. You need to learn how to approach each game; playing away was our problem in the first year and then I felt we improved in the second season. How? By doing almost the same things in training sessions but we are signing players for the Premiership now, more physical players but the question is to find the balance between the quality and the physical approach.”

You have won so much in your career already that I think people forget that you are still very young at just 46; do you consider yourself to still be learning your trade?

“I think you just must always learn as a manager. Whether you are talking with younger managers, or managers with more experience you can learn something, a small detail or some advice, it’s important. It’s true that when I think about my future, I think maybe I can manage for 20 more years, but it’s a profession that’s very, very special because you need to learn every day and you need to learn from mistakes and each year you know that you will make a lot of mistakes.”

You brought in a lot of new signings in the summer and it often takes players time to settle at a club. How long did it take you to settle in at Liverpool and how do you personally help your new players to settle in?

“I always try to explain to them how important it is to understand and improve their English. I am continuing to learn the language and the first season was more difficult. When you try to explain something, ok you can do it especially if you use the hands and everything, but to say something in just10 minutes at half time then, how you say the things and the pronunciation of the words is really important. For some players to be capable of talking with your team mates is a big difference. You can see Morientes now, he’s scoring goals in Spain and playing really well and he had some problems here because he couldn’t talk normally as he’s doing now (in Spain) and the same with Josemi. I think it’s important that they need to start with English lessons from the beginning, if it’s possible three or four times a week, it’s really vital. It’s also important to watch the television in English because sometimes they (players) try to watch it with subtitles or in Spanish or French but you need to watch TV and to hear the radio always in English because you can always learn something or learn to distinguish the accent.”

It can also take English players time to settle like Peter Crouch last season. When many people didn’t believe in Peter before he started scoring you believed in him and almost breathed confidence into him to make him a goal scorer not just for club but for country. How rewarding has that been for you because you demonstrated real strength in man management?

“When we decide to sign a player normally we try to monitor the player for a period of time. In this case we were watching Peter for three or four months and analysing every game, every movement. So we knew he was a good player and the only thing was to support him, because all he needed was time. Now the problem is everybody says he’s good and now we need to say ‘keep on your toes because we need to see the best of you’ and sometimes when people start talking really well about a player it’s more difficult to keep a player working hard. In this case though Peter is ok, he continues to work hard and I feel that he continues to learn and I think he will be even better.”

You show passion and competitiveness on the bench but off the field you appear very calm and unflappable. How do you maintain that composure in what is a very pressurised profession because you seem to have the balance right in terms of emotions?

“It’s not easy (laughs) and sometimes you lose your control. During the games you try to analyse and give the players advice and you need to shout because they can’t hear you if you don’t shout. After the game, you know it’s finished and you can’t change things and you need to think about the next game and think about your player’s confidence, the team spirit and all these things and you need to say the right things, if you can. Sometimes you are really disappointed and furious but you must try to say the right things because it’s important for the future and for the next games.”

Rafael Benitez

**********************************************

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:09 pm

it's fair enough saying that we now have more width but we still look as if we don't know how to use it correctly. we don't get in behind teams enough and our wide men tend to cut inside a lot of the time. i like pennant but he has to be encouraged to have more discipline and keep his shape a lot better.

when we get wide in the attacking third we score goals. look at galatasaray as the prime example of this. a lot of the time however, we seem to cross the ball from too deep.

by **Espionage** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:54 am

stmichael wrote:it's fair enough saying that we now have more width but we still look as if we don't know how to use it correctly. we don't get in behind teams enough and our wide men tend to cut inside a lot of the time. i like pennant but he has to be encouraged to have more discipline and keep his shape a lot better.

when we get wide in the attacking third we score goals. look at galatasaray as the prime example of this. a lot of the time however, we seem to cross the ball from too deep.

I dont think that its we dont know how to use width properly, its that we have a system that means that the fullbacks provide the 'geting to the by-line' type plays.

It seems like whenever Pennant/Gonzalez run wide, our fullbacks (who are used to running around the outside) seem like they have no where to run. I think that its a tactical thing, the fullbacks have to make sure that they recognise the tendancies of the person playing in front of them. If you are playing behiend Gerrard/Garcia then run around the outside, if you are playing with Pennant/Gonzalez then play like a more traditional fullback (maybe giving support, and going around the outside sparingly) and let Alonso go forward a bit more.

I must say that the perchase of Pennant is looking a little bit strange atm..... I think that he has been playing pretty well, but do we really need him there? We have Gerrard and Garcia (and if worst comes to worst possibly Zenden/Gonzalez/Kewell) who can play there, and Gerrard should play there every games (unless Momo/Alonso are injured). We have the width now but it seems like the way that we use wingbacks and having Alonso play just in front on the CBs just doesnt really accomodate for the wide players that we bourght.
I think that Gonzalez is one for the future but the Pennant purchase seems a little strange, perhaps we should waited and spent bigger on a right fullback...

by **stmichael** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:43 pm

Just bringing this back to the top because I think it's relevant again after yesterday's game.

Once again, if you look at our play, despite controlling the game for long periods, most of our play was in front of their midfield and defence. Not once did we look to get in behind them We had very little penetration, and when we break, we don't seem to counter with much pace, which allows teams to get bodies behind the ball, and then we just stroke the ball around in front of them again.

Contrast this with Manure against Blackburn the other day. Their game is simple but effective. Carrick and Scholes out to Ronaldo or Giggs and then into the box. They are also lightning on the counter attack.

I just don't see us doing this because we don't have any real pace in the side.

by **dawson99** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:48 pm

Crouch had a bad game...liverpool had a bad game...

well i think crouch was poor yesterday (no im not having a go at him, but yesterday he was off his game)

we need someone to hold up play for the rest of the team, with no sissoko more was on crouch and when he went off the boil there was little to no creativity. makes u realise how much hamman did for us when he was here

by **7_Kewell** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:01 pm

stmichael wrote:

Just bringing this back to the top because I think it's relevant again after yesterday's game.

Once again, if you look at our play, despite controlling the game for long periods, most of our play was in front of their midfield and defence. Not once did we look to get in behind them We had very little penetration, and when we break, we don't seem to counter with much pace, which allows teams to get bodies behind the ball, and then we just stroke the ball around in front of them again.

Contrast this with Manure against Blackburn the other day. Their game is simple but effective. Carrick and Scholes out to Ronaldo or Giggs and then into the box. They are also lightning on the counter attack.

I just don't see us doing this because we don't have any real pace in the side.

Pennant and Gonzalez have the pace...but they lack the confidence or ability to take on their man and get in behind. One of the few bright sparks yesterday was when Finnan supported the right wing and played Pennant in. He got through a couple of time and i thought was unlucky not to get an assist.

by **HOMER** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:08 pm

no pace upfront = no penetration
arsenal were very comfortable at the back because every arsenal defender was faster than crouch and kuyt, they could play high up the pitch and queeze our midfield.
we on the other hand had to play deeper because henry and van persie are quicker than all our defenders giving their midfielders space to run into and score!

can't play crouch and kuyt away from home, you have to have bellamy in the side for the other defnce to play deeper and hen give gerrard space to run into.

also fed up of alonso running back to the centre halves to pick up the ball - i'm sure carra, hyypia or agger can pass the ball to the midfieders higher up the pitch, it looks like we have 3 centre halves at times with alonso so deep.

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