Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

When we talk in this board about tactics, many people say 442, 352, 541 and all that.

Well in Spanish we have a slightly different meaning of the word tactics. The above would be a "formation" and the tactics would be the different automatised movements that are trained in the training sessions and are put in practice in the games.

I'd like this thread to be about that. I consider I have a very basic knowledge about tactics, but I think that I can learn from many of you, that's why I write this post.

I'll start the thread by commenting two things I saw from Rafa's body language, and no it's not that he was unconfortable 

Xabi's long balls

At min 60 the camera focused on Rafa, who was yelling and making signs. He first made a curve with his hand as in "long ball or game orientation change". And then he put one finger of each hand upwards and swithed their position, from back to forward.

The super footie pundit of ITV said

"Well I think that he's asking Bellamy to start his runs from deeper positions and not to be square to Kuyt".

I don't think he meant that, because he yelled "Xabi, Xabi!" for starters. Then I read in his lips the "largo (long)" when made the curve with the hand. And then he said "Aqui, no aquí" that is "(do the long ball) Here, not here".

I think he meant that Xabi shouldn't do a long ball when he had his partner midfielder (Sissoko) behind him, but when he was in a deeper position than Sissoko, so that the midfielder that is onfront of him help the pass receiver and he (Alonso) covers the back just in case.

The fingers where like this
        X

Al. (this would be Alonso) --> Here!!

  Al. Not here!!

-------X ---> 



I'm pretty sure about he was talking about the long balls (side to side), not sure about my interpretation, if any of you can watch again the game, or remember that please tell me.  He insisted on the position (here!, not here) twice.

Hope you understood the schema, because I'm pretty sure that I couldn't express well what I wanted to say in english

The "come" gesture

A gesture that Rafa does often is one that asks players to "come here". He does that when we are defending. When ever the oposition pass the ball horizontally or backwards. Rafa starts to say "come here" (sometimes really angry) so that we do not stay too deep and we leave the oposition forwards in off side. That's something LFC does regularly very well and a pleasure to watch.

-----

You may talk about this kind of tactics here. Things like zonal vs marking defending, how well was the defence coordinated, the threat that is caused to oposition when Gerrard initially on a wing swaps position with one od the midfielder, and things like that

I love it when someone that knows more footie than me comments some of this movements. Most of them are used often and when you realise that on the match you sometimes appreciate more the job some players do.

[Lando_Griffin]

I know exactly what you are referring to, Sabre.

It looked to me as though he was telling Xabi to get goalside, THEN pass long, rather than being in an advanced position of Fat Frank and doing it. (This no doubt to counter any threat posed if the pass was intercepted.)

As I don't speak Spanish, I'll have to take your word for it!!!!

[bigmick]

I don't recall the Alonso incident Sabes but your interpretation of it makes sense to me and is probably indicative of where we are experiencing difficulties as a team at the moment. We were known last season as being very "compact", we lacked pace up top and width so therefore by definition we were very solid, with in simplistic terms all the players being fairly close to each other at all times.

Chuck in a natural winger (Pennant) who hugs the touchline (too much in my opinion but that's anoter thread), and a striker with pace (Bellamy) who runs the channels (same as Pennant, too much) and the inevitable result is that we get a bit stretched at times. It requires of course that your midfielders who are at the hub of determining our rhythm and tempo (namely Alonso mainly and Gerrard) do so with appreciation of the team as a whole. There's no point hitting Bellamy if no fecker can get up in support, nor hitting Pennant if nobody has a chance to get in the box to reach the inevitable cross.

This comes back to my rotation thing really. Teams that function at somewhere near maximum have an effortless fluidity, being able to switch from the front foot and back to defence at a stroke. To use an overused expression, they have balance.

It's a state of being which we haven't achieved this season. Too often we've looked porous in midfield when we lose posession, players strewn accross the park trying to catch up with the play in areas where there is no support. As the attack breaks down teams are able to pass and run through the gaping holes, "it's Alonso he's sh!te isn't he?". Well no he isn't really, it's the team pattern. Next time you watch Kuyt hit the bar and kick yourself at his misfortune, check the instant control and fizzed pass that put him in. Sh!te players can't do stuff like that. They can't see it and they can't do it. Defensively our uncomfortable start to the season was obvious (although in the last two games we sacrificed some attacking intent to enable ourselves to become more compact) but in attack less so. The giveaway signs are there though if you look.  How often does Pennant get it and check back, laying it off to Finnan? The two classic options ought to be Finnan overlapping at Pace and/or a midfield player hitting the inside right slot at pace. Neither has happened very often because the play is stretched and forced, the guys can't get there.

The rhythm and tempo is not quite there and there are a couple of reasons for it. It's not as simple as passing it to one of your teammates and if you can't do that you're sh!te. Football is a simple game but alas, if you want to build a top team it's not quite that simple. Good teams attack and defend as a team. At the moment, due to the formation getting slightly stretched (this is an indisputeable fact IMHO, Rafa would agree with this too I think) and in my view unfamiliarity within the ranks (made worse by over-rotation) we are not quite getting there.

We will of course. The worry is that by the time we do the league may be over as a winnable competition for us. When we do play well, watch out for the balance, it'll be there.

[66-1112520797]

Sabre I've jusy watched that clip over and over, but I can't lip read what he's saying and who too. It happened after we broke down there attack Xabi played the ball out wide to Pennant who played a diagonal ball to Gerrard.

You may be on the money with the Sissoko comment it does make sense, but Xabi didnt play it long. So it may have no relavance to that particular break or what we saw, I dont know

[Sabre]

Yes that's the moment Bamaga man, actually it's two clips, in the first one Rafa has the hand is his mouth (as in to speak louder) and yells Xabi, Xabi 2 times. Then another image of about 2 or 3 seconds, and then the instructions I tried to explain.

Good post bigmick, I agree the points on Pennant and that we have been porous when we lost possesion in the first weeks. But in Chelsea game I noticed an improvement in this last point. Chelsea made a goal because one of their players protected the ball very well, turned back quickly and shot perfectly. I couldn't say it was the consequence of some mistakes in a row.

As I said in the game thread though, we should have played better against 10 men, and the reasons are well described in the "strechted and forced" point, we played all the 2nd half as if it was the last 5 minutes.

[66-1112520797]

Good post bigmick, I agree the points on Pennant and that we have been porous when we lost possesion in the first weeks. But in Chelsea game I noticed an improvement in this last point

Like David Pleat said we should of capitalised down the right flank more, especially in the second half. I felt we wasted an opportunity given to us by Chelsea, with them being narrow and down to ten men. Ashley Cole was exposed, he's not the easiest defender to get around but Pennant never really tried to round him. Even when Finnan overlapped he'd opt to just cross the ball in and ignore Finnan, it became a tad predictable. Either that or he could of come inside and run or play the ball in and mix it up a bit, hell even have a pop at goal, that is one thing SWP has that Pennant doesnt seem to, an eye for goal. Dont get me wrong I think he's a good player and will do well for us, but at times he just seems focused on crossing the ball all the time.
I think with twenty minutes left in that game Rafa could of taken Pennant off and swapped Gerrard over there. At least Gerrard would of ruffled some feathers on A.Cole, and with that amount of space he could of caused Chelsea a real problem.

[Ciggy]

I seen him saying patient last night, asif to say let them think we are sh.ite then kill them sort of thing 
Always makes me laugh when he looks at his watch then does this thing with his hands keep it together.

[Sabre]

I seen him saying patient last night, asif to say let them think we are sh.ite then kill them sort of thing   
Always makes me laugh when he looks at his watch then does this thing with his hands keep it together.

Yeh I realised once you commented, women always spot that details! and it's true he does that

I like the intensity he has, telling Sissoko to calm down when he had a bad long shot in the first half, always living the game with intensity, and even giving instructions when the team is 2-0 and he doesn't like something he sees. I started laughing when I saw him a second full of rage shortly after we scored the second goal. He's a perfectionist!

[Bad Bob]

One reason why Agger will be so important for us in the long run is his ability to complement Xabi by bringing the ball out of defense.  Today against Spurs there were a few moments in the first half where both Keane and Defoe were hovering around Alonso when our CBs had the ball, denying the first pass to our key play-maker.  Cue young Agger who took possession, carried the ball over the halfway line and looked to pick out Kuyt or Gonzales.  On one occasion he even carried the ball down the left touchline, winning a throw down by the corner flag!

When Alonso is covered it is great to have someone who can carry the ball out rather than just hoofing it upfield.  Also, Agger provides a great outlet for Alonso when he's under pressure.  The two are start to develop a very nice understanding and, between them, have the vision and ball-handling skills to play their way out of trouble and move the team forward.  Fantastic to see this sort of development taking shape!   

[red37]

and did you see the look on his face towards the bench? shook his head and looked as if to say.."well, someone needs to make something happen" and at that point i agreed with him.

spurs made us hard work first half. and your right about the progression, i think the lad is going to be massive.

[Bad Bob]

and did you see the look on his face towards the bench? shook his head and looked as if to say.."well, someone needs to make something happen" and at that point i agreed with him.

spurs made us hard work first half. and your right about the progression, i think the lad is going to be massive.

Yes, that was great to see.  We were far too static in the first half and he recognized it.  He seemed to say, well if no one's going to create space or make themselves available for a pass, I'll do it myself! 

[red37]

can you imagine this lad in 2 to 3 years bob.....

[Sabre]

can you imagine this lad in 2 to 3 years bob.....

I don't know if it's because the standards I've seen in Spain when it comes to CB is quite low in the last 15 years, but I think we might have signed a world class (in the stu sense of the word) CB of some near future.

You might think I'm a fool, but I'm truly impressed. As for the remark of Bad Bob, it's important to have a CB that has a good conduction of the ball, specially when your midfield distributors are under a close marking as he says. Carra and Hyppia are great CB, but none of them have this abilty.

[azriahmad]

Agger's abilities to play the ball out of defence is like going back in time to watch Alan Hansen in his pomp. Mark Wright had this abilities as well (in fact I think he was a better ball player) but he was far too inconsistent in his defending. Too early to tell if Agger can emulate the great Alan Hansen but if he continues to show improvement, that may be a possibility.

[5 stars]

When Rafa was at Valencia, he won the UEFA Cup and two La Liga Titles using 4-2-3-1. In Rafa's first season here he used that formation, it helped us win the Champions League. But, he wasn't able to get the results in the League, so last season he decided to played more of a 4-4-2 formation.

Not traditional 4-4-2, with a holding midfielder and a more attack minded central midfielder.

But, it was more of a defensive partnership, similar to the central midfield partnership you would use in a 4-2-3-1. With Morientes often playing as the link-man or deep-lying forward, dropping deep to help with the build up play and with Crouch holding the ball up.

This season we are playing a more attack minded, we are playing with two strikers up front. We aren't playing with a tall targetman and a link-man or deep-lying forward who drops deep.

This season we need either Gerrard of Garcia drift into the middle, to take up positions behind the strikers, to link midfield with attack. If that doesn't happen, we have looked disjointed going forward and not likely score.