Liverpool FC Forum

[dawson99]

If only we had a player who could play between midfield and attack... hmmm

[metalhead]

If only we had a player who could play between midfield and attack... hmmm

Gerrard?

I don't think he is suited for that role.

[dawson99]

If only we had a player who could play between midfield and attack... hmmm

Gerrard?

I don't think he is suited for that role.

I think he was born for that role

[Bad Bob]

I disagree, 4-5-1 is no good for Liverpool. It'll always mean that the lone striker will get isolated and we'll be chasing a goal from anywhere, meaning no clear focus and that's bound to come undone at some stage.

Rafa's approach seems to be to wait and see what the other team will do. That's dangerous ground IMO.

It's not as simple as that, otherwise we would see the lone striker getting isolated and starved of possession on a regular basis. 4-5-1 works fine IF:

- You have good spells of possession (which we generally do)
- You get your wide-men high and wide to occupy their full-backs which gives your lone striker a much better chance against 2 centre-halves
- You get your full-backs involved in play and if possible, push them on
- BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY you have to have the right man to do the job up-front (see my previous post on Kuyt in this thread). We didn't (and often don't) play this system with the right front-man.

We (as fans) and the media get too caught up in 4-4-2 but let's be honest, does anyone actually play a classic 4-4-2 anymore? It's always one playing high up with another playing in the withdrawn role or in the hole, whatever you want to call it. On the face of it, it's not that dissimilar to the way we set up yesterday with Gerrard playing 2nd striker.

Spot on, Scott.  The more this season goes on (and carries over from last season) the more clear it is that Gerrard is playing in the hole as a 2nd striker.  We aren't playing a 4-5-1, IMO...it's more of a 4-4-1-1, with Gerrard in a free role.  The problem yesterday wasn't that Kuyt got too isolated, it's that Gerrard was starved for space to work in and denied the ball in good areas.  When that happens, we need to drop him back into the engine room, as you've suggested, and bring someone like Keane on to play in the hole.  Gerrard MUST get plenty of touches per game to influence proceedings and if Plan A isn't allowing that, Plan B needs to be put in place sharpish--that never happened yesterday.

[Emerald Red]

Anyone just wish Rafa would have ignored Fergie now and concentrated on beating Stoke!

Im starting to worry now,if thats the fecking team he fields when we dont have another match for a week,whats he gonna do when the midweek C/L fixtures start again?
FUC'KING FIELD YOUR BEST TEAM..unless forced to change it!
At least if we'd have had our best 11 out yesterday you just have to accept it.Dropping 2 points with a tgeam out like that just makes ya feel theyt were thrown away!!

To be fair, I think that was the best team that could be fielded apart from Keane. Xavi is injured, and Torres has played 20 minutes of football. Add to that the fact the weather was freezing, and most injuries occur in those kinds of conditions, could Rafa afford to play an unfit Torres from the start who was coming back from a hamstring injury, which is probably the most niggling of injuries of the lot. What if he'd pulled up again, we'd totally be f*cked because that would be at least another 4 weeks or more without him. He done the right thing by not starting him, not sure about Keane, though. As for Lucas, he should have been whipped off at half time and replaced by Babel or even Keane. Personally now, I'd prefer to see Spearing replace Lucas in the team for a while. Anytime I've seen him play, he's been really lively and very tidy. Reminds me of a young Scholes.

[dawson99]

Rafa has to realise early if a system is not working. We all saw after 15 minutes that we needed two up front. But he wont do that...ever. and his stubbornness may well win us the league, but it could also be the reason we don't win.

[metalhead]

Anyone just wish Rafa would have ignored Fergie now and concentrated on beating Stoke!

Im starting to worry now,if thats the fecking team he fields when we dont have another match for a week,whats he gonna do when the midweek C/L fixtures start again?
FUC'KING FIELD YOUR BEST TEAM..unless forced to change it!
At least if we'd have had our best 11 out yesterday you just have to accept it.Dropping 2 points with a tgeam out like that just makes ya feel theyt were thrown away!!

To be fair, I think that was the best team that could be fielded apart from Keane. Xavi is injured, and Torres has played 20 minutes of football. Add to that the fact the weather was freezing, and most injuries occur in those kinds of conditions, could Rafa afford to play an unfit Torres from the start who was coming back from a hamstring injury, which is probably the most niggling of injuries of the lot. What if he'd pulled up again, we'd totally be f*cked because that would be at least another 4 weeks or more without him. He done the right thing by not starting him, not sure about Keane, though. As for Lucas, he should have been whipped off at half time and replaced by Babel or even Keane. Personally now, I'd prefer to see Spearing replace Lucas in the team for a while. Anytime I've seen him play, he's been really lively and very tidy. Reminds me of a young Scholes.

To be fair Rafa should have started with two strikers upfront, ok Torres coming back from injury and all, play Kuyt Keane and stick Gerrard and Mascherano in the middle.

our best team yesterday would have been this:

                  Reina

Carragher    Skrtel    Hyppia   Aurelio

Benayoun    Mascherano  Gerrard  Riera

                 Keane   Kuyt

[Scottbot]

Rafa has to realise early if a system is not working. We all saw after 15 minutes that we needed two up front. But he wont do that...ever. and his stubbornness may well win us the league, but it could also be the reason we don't win.

Everyone is obsessed with the system, there's more to it than that. The idiot pundits who grew up playing nothing but the old standard 4-4-2 and your best 11 every week trot that out on a weekly basis, regardless of the fact the game has changed in the last 20 years.

It's about playing the right players in the right positions and making adjustments during the game to best influence our chances. That didn't happen yesterday.

[Number 9]

Anyone just wish Rafa would have ignored Fergie now and concentrated on beating Stoke!

Im starting to worry now,if thats the fecking team he fields when we dont have another match for a week,whats he gonna do when the midweek C/L fixtures start again?
FUC'KING FIELD YOUR BEST TEAM..unless forced to change it!
At least if we'd have had our best 11 out yesterday you just have to accept it.Dropping 2 points with a tgeam out like that just makes ya feel theyt were thrown away!!

To be fair, I think that was the best team that could be fielded apart from Keane. Xavi is injured, and Torres has played 20 minutes of football. Add to that the fact the weather was freezing, and most injuries occur in those kinds of conditions, could Rafa afford to play an unfit Torres from the start who was coming back from a hamstring injury, which is probably the most niggling of injuries of the lot. What if he'd pulled up again, we'd totally be f*cked because that would be at least another 4 weeks or more without him. He done the right thing by not starting him, not sure about Keane, though. As for Lucas, he should have been whipped off at half time and replaced by Babel or even Keane. Personally now, I'd prefer to see Spearing replace Lucas in the team for a while. Anytime I've seen him play, he's been really lively and very tidy. Reminds me of a young Scholes.

This could have been played!

                Carra   Skrtel   Hyypia  Aurelio

                Kuyt     Gerrard  Masch   Riera

                          Torres    Keane

Rafa said before the game Torres was fit.The bottom line is if he was started and got tired he could have came off.
The manager took a gamble and it never paid off.ER there is no point defending the indefendable mate.
The reality was there were 3 points there for the taking yesterday and we failed to take them with a poor line up,formation(that he should have changed) and daft substitutions!

Those are the facts.
Put them together with all the players bar Hyypia having a minger and the outcome is 2 points dropped!
It could have been avoided!

[Emerald Red]

Anyone just wish Rafa would have ignored Fergie now and concentrated on beating Stoke!

Im starting to worry now,if thats the fecking team he fields when we dont have another match for a week,whats he gonna do when the midweek C/L fixtures start again?
FUC'KING FIELD YOUR BEST TEAM..unless forced to change it!
At least if we'd have had our best 11 out yesterday you just have to accept it.Dropping 2 points with a tgeam out like that just makes ya feel theyt were thrown away!!

To be fair, I think that was the best team that could be fielded apart from Keane. Xavi is injured, and Torres has played 20 minutes of football. Add to that the fact the weather was freezing, and most injuries occur in those kinds of conditions, could Rafa afford to play an unfit Torres from the start who was coming back from a hamstring injury, which is probably the most niggling of injuries of the lot. What if he'd pulled up again, we'd totally be f*cked because that would be at least another 4 weeks or more without him. He done the right thing by not starting him, not sure about Keane, though. As for Lucas, he should have been whipped off at half time and replaced by Babel or even Keane. Personally now, I'd prefer to see Spearing replace Lucas in the team for a while. Anytime I've seen him play, he's been really lively and very tidy. Reminds me of a young Scholes.

To be fair Rafa should have started with two strikers upfront, ok Torres coming back from injury and all, play Kuyt Keane and stick Gerrard and Mascherano in the middle.

our best team yesterday would have been this:

                  Reina

Carragher    Skrtel    Hyppia   Aurelio

Benayoun    Mascherano  Gerrard  Riera

                 Keane   Kuyt

Yep, exactly. If anything was wrong, it was the formation we played. Rafa f*cked that up. It should have been Kuyt and Keane up top, though the team we'd out wasn't a weak one. It was a combination of players not pulling their weight and the system set up. Who knows, if some players performed well, then things would probably be different and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Players should shoulder some of the blame, and Rafa the rest of it. Xavi Alonso was a massive factor in Rafa's thinking, of that I've no doubt. If we'd had him fit yesterday, I say we would have won that game.

[metalhead]

Anyone just wish Rafa would have ignored Fergie now and concentrated on beating Stoke!

Im starting to worry now,if thats the fecking team he fields when we dont have another match for a week,whats he gonna do when the midweek C/L fixtures start again?
FUC'KING FIELD YOUR BEST TEAM..unless forced to change it!
At least if we'd have had our best 11 out yesterday you just have to accept it.Dropping 2 points with a tgeam out like that just makes ya feel theyt were thrown away!!

To be fair, I think that was the best team that could be fielded apart from Keane. Xavi is injured, and Torres has played 20 minutes of football. Add to that the fact the weather was freezing, and most injuries occur in those kinds of conditions, could Rafa afford to play an unfit Torres from the start who was coming back from a hamstring injury, which is probably the most niggling of injuries of the lot. What if he'd pulled up again, we'd totally be f*cked because that would be at least another 4 weeks or more without him. He done the right thing by not starting him, not sure about Keane, though. As for Lucas, he should have been whipped off at half time and replaced by Babel or even Keane. Personally now, I'd prefer to see Spearing replace Lucas in the team for a while. Anytime I've seen him play, he's been really lively and very tidy. Reminds me of a young Scholes.

This could have been played!

                Carra   Skrtel   Hyypia  Aurelio

                Kuyt     Gerrard  Masch   Riera

                          Torres    Keane

Rafa said before the game Torres was fit.The bottom line is if he was started and got tired he could have came off.
The manager took a gamble and it never paid off.ER there is no point defending the indefendable mate.
The reality was there were 3 points there for the taking yesterday and we failed to take them with a poor line up,formation(that he should have changed) and daft substitutions!

Those are the facts.
Put them together with all the players bar Hyypia having a minger and the outcome is 2 points dropped!
It could have been avoided!

[dawson99]

Rafa has to realise early if a system is not working. We all saw after 15 minutes that we needed two up front. But he wont do that...ever. and his stubbornness may well win us the league, but it could also be the reason we don't win.

Everyone is obsessed with the system, there's more to it than that. The idiot pundits who grew up playing nothing but the old standard 4-4-2 and your best 11 every week trot that out on a weekly basis, regardless of the fact the game has changed in the last 20 years.

It's about playing the right players in the right positions and making adjustments during the game to best influence our chances. That didn't happen yesterday.

That's the problem, he will never make the adjustments early, and sometimes you have to make a change and bring on someone we need, not just plod on trynig something which isn't working.

[heimdall]

Can anyone ever recall Rafa changing formation or tactics in the middle of a game, it certainly doesn't happen often and that is what most disappointing, either heis too stubborn or too stupid to do it, either way unless he gets his act together he is not automatic contract renewal from me! You guys have to realise that the owners are not complete morons, they must be more p1ssed of than we are at having financed the £20 million purchase of Keane only for him to be sat on his whilst we are incapable of scoring goals! If I was the owners I would be asking Rafa to explaining why we needed Keane.

[fivecups]

If only we had a player who could play between midfield and attack... hmmm

Gerrard?

I don't think he is suited for that role.

Sarcasm?

[metalhead]

Anyone just wish Rafa would have ignored Fergie now and concentrated on beating Stoke!

Im starting to worry now,if thats the fecking team he fields when we dont have another match for a week,whats he gonna do when the midweek C/L fixtures start again?
FUC'KING FIELD YOUR BEST TEAM..unless forced to change it!
At least if we'd have had our best 11 out yesterday you just have to accept it.Dropping 2 points with a tgeam out like that just makes ya feel theyt were thrown away!!

To be fair, I think that was the best team that could be fielded apart from Keane. Xavi is injured, and Torres has played 20 minutes of football. Add to that the fact the weather was freezing, and most injuries occur in those kinds of conditions, could Rafa afford to play an unfit Torres from the start who was coming back from a hamstring injury, which is probably the most niggling of injuries of the lot. What if he'd pulled up again, we'd totally be f*cked because that would be at least another 4 weeks or more without him. He done the right thing by not starting him, not sure about Keane, though. As for Lucas, he should have been whipped off at half time and replaced by Babel or even Keane. Personally now, I'd prefer to see Spearing replace Lucas in the team for a while. Anytime I've seen him play, he's been really lively and very tidy. Reminds me of a young Scholes.

To be fair Rafa should have started with two strikers upfront, ok Torres coming back from injury and all, play Kuyt Keane and stick Gerrard and Mascherano in the middle.

our best team yesterday would have been this:

                  Reina

Carragher    Skrtel    Hyppia   Aurelio

Benayoun    Mascherano  Gerrard  Riera

                 Keane   Kuyt

Yep, exactly. If anything was wrong, it was the formation we played. Rafa f*cked that up. It should have been Kuyt and Keane up top, though the team we'd out wasn't a weak one. It was a combination of players not pulling their weight and the system set up. Who knows, if some players performed well, then things would probably be different and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Players should shoulder some of the blame, and Rafa the rest of it. Xavi Alonso was a massive factor in Rafa's thinking, of that I've no doubt. If we'd had him fit yesterday, I say we would have won that game.

At first I thought with Alonso injured, Rafa will go to a balanced 4-4-2 formation, but instead he gave Lucas a game, well to be fair to Lucas, I think he deserves a chance after how he played against Newcastle.

Its the whole system that was wrong, against Newcastle our gamble paid off, many of us, including me thought it was a ridiculous lineup. However, we won. Kuyt against Newcastle was average up on his own.