Liverpool FC Forum

[POKERJOKERZ]

Some good points made from our manc poster.

The future is bleak,.

well we do have a few things in common apart from 18 titles each, both our teams are playing £ and our clubs are hundreds of millions in debt and both have yank owners.

I think Utd's is close to a billion if not already at that point.

THe debt, as of the last set of audited accounts placed with Companies House, stood at £690 million.

If I am not mistaken it breaks down as follows.

£520 million of this is the senior debt, and is secured against the assets of Manchester United. The capital loan is not beind paid, merely the interest accrued. In effect as long as the interest is paid, then the debt doesnt increase.

£175 million is whats known as PIK loans, and attract an annual interest rate of 14.25%. This interest is rolled over, and is not being paid. These debts are secured against the shares of Red Shareholders LTD, which ultimately is the company that owns Manchester United.

The PIK loans have a date by which they must be settled. Up to that date United must perform to a certain level. If the lenders feel United is not performing, financially, as it should be, or it reaches maturity date and United are unable to pay, then the banks have a right to take a proportionary stake in United in lieu of the debt.

In effect what that means is the PIK debts are accruing interest, and constantly growing. All the time this happens, the amount owed to the lenders increases. If United cannot afford to repay, they take a stake in United, and of course, as the debt is increasing, so does the % share they get hold of if Glazer doesnt or cannot afford to clear off the PIK debt.

Glazer is now trying to refinance the PIK debts. But all this is doing is creating a consolidation loan. He owes more now than he did when he took over the club, and in 4-5 years time it could be even higher.

His sole aim is to get Uniteds valuation on the market to a level high enough, so that he can sell the club, pay off what he ( or correctly what United ) owes, and walk away with the profit..

THe problem is until he sells hte debt just keeps going up.

Think about this, since they took over

1) We have won 3 premiership titles back to back
2) We have won and finished 2nd in the CL
3) Ticket prices have gone up 45%
4) TV revenue is the highest its ever been
5) Large scale redundancies within Old Trafford and Carrington
6) Less expenditure on players
7) Sold ROnaldo for £80 million


After all of that, they are STILL losing money...

I'd say United are pretty much up the creek without a paddle.

[Ciggy]

Liverpool co-owner Tom Hicks has blasted ex-Bayern Munich manager Jurgen Klinsmann for his attempts to undermine Rafael Benitez in a bid to secure the manager's job at Anfield.

The German was approached by Hicks and fellow Reds owner George Gillett in 2007 as a potential replacement for the current Kop boss, who was at loggerheads with the American duo and reportedly being lined up by Real Madrid and Inter Milan.

However Hicks has spoken out against the failed Bayern Munich manager after his attacking of Benitez's managerial record on a live television show earlier this month.

The former Tottenham hero tore strips off the Spaniard following Liverpool's humiliating Champions League exit with a 2-1 defeat to Fiorentina at Anfield.

Klinsmann, 45, aimed to endear himself to Gillett and Hicks by hinting in an interview with a German newspaper that he could be in line for a move to the Anfield managerial hot seat.

When asked about the possibility of Klinsmann becoming manager at L4, Hicks replied: "Never," and added: "I don't know what his (Klinsmann's) motives are."

http://www.clickliverpool.com/sport....fc.html

[NANNY RED]

It just shows you though Man City fecking loaded can afford any manager an player they want, an yet theve got Mancini,

Were skint have two fecking conniving lying cheats shows you the type of manager we could end up with If Rafa goes,

[POKERJOKERZ]

Some good points made from our manc poster.

The future is bleak,.

Not orange then..?

no the future is chelsea 

I dont think it is actually.

Roman has lost substantial amounts in the credit crisis, and rumour has it he'd looking to cut expenditure at Chelsea massively. You can kind of see him sat rubbing his hands when UEFA said they are banned from the transfer window. at least it passes the buck to UEFA and he doesnt have to admit the real truth.

The real problem lies in Saudi and Asian businessmen who have yet to enter the market.

Why would a Arab buy Man United for £1 billion when he can just pay $100 million for a club like Everton ( not saying that they are, just they could ). Spend £300 million on players, a couple of hundred million on a new ground, and bingo... a huge club with far less outlay than it would cost to buy a club like United, and the room for growth is massive.

You cant expand United. Its already the biggst there is, in terms of commercial value and revenue streams.

If and when newcomers come in, I see all the medium sized clubs being snapped up, the transfer market going completely mad, and clubs like United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool who were previously the dominant forces, being forced out the market, and put to death under the weight of hte debts they incurred whilst they were big.

[Sarge]

City just sacked Hughes for Mancini....

Even sh1ttier clubs are doing that....why can't we? (and do not say that we are not a sh1tty club!!)

[tubby]

The Mancini move seems strange. As Lawro said on MOTD it's essentially another gamble. I was expecting a Hiddink or Mourinho to come in, someone that is used to being able to handle big egos.

[JamCar05]

It just shows you though Man City fecking loaded can afford any manager an player they want, an yet theve got Mancini,

Were skint have two fecking conniving lying cheats shows you the type of manager we could end up with If Rafa goes,

Mark Hughes ... ...

[Kharhaz]

Should rafa leave, I think we should give the reigns over to Gerrard and Carragher with Dalglish as mentor. As crazy as it sounds, we would have two local lads with a passion for the team doing everything they can to instill the passion back into the club and with Dalglish as mentor, with his experience, could well lead the club into a whole new exciting era. When Dalglish retires for good, Gerrard and Carra will know enough to guide this club onwards to bigger and better things.

Just a thought mind, one I would be willing to try out.

[NANNY RED]

It just shows you though Man City fecking loaded can afford any manager an player they want, an yet theve got Mancini,

Were skint have two fecking conniving lying cheats shows you the type of manager we could end up with If Rafa goes,

Mark Hughes ... ...

i just got a cold shiver right up my spine then

[POKERJOKERZ]

Should rafa leave, I think we should give the reigns over to Gerrard and Carragher with Dalglish as mentor. As crazy as it sounds, we would have two local lads with a passion for the team doing everything they can to instill the passion back into the club and with Dalglish as mentor, with his experience, could well lead the club into a whole new exciting era. When Dalglish retires for good, Gerrard and Carra will know enough to guide this club onwards to bigger and better things.

Just a thought mind, one I would be willing to try out.

With all due respect, you are letting your heart rule your head.

In an ideal world we would all love to see playing legends run our football clubs. But its simply not the way now.

Football clubs are businesses. There are millions upon millions of pounds invested, and potentially millions to be won or lost.

Whilst Carragher and Gerrard may know the club inside out, and would undoubtedly put their heart and soul into it, they just wouldnt be able to cope with the demands of the job. Its not as simple as turning up for training each day, pick the best 11, get the results then go home..

Those days are long gone. FOotball management isnt about knowing how to play football anymore. Thats why people like Hiddink, Mourhino, Mancini are where they are. Not because they were specifically gifted players with a wealth of knowledge and passion for a team. They are there because they can run a footballing business.

Much as how I see your point, leave Gerrard and Carragher where they belong, up their with your Liverpool Legends. Dont stick them into a task they are totally ill equipped to cope with and risk tarnishing their image through no fault of their own.

Yes they love Liverpool, but loving a club just isnt enough to run it these days. Those days belonged to the likes of Busby, Shankly and Clough.. Those managers wouldnt last 5 minutes in todays era... Much as how I would love those sorts of managers to come back..

[Kharhaz]

Should rafa leave, I think we should give the reigns over to Gerrard and Carragher with Dalglish as mentor. As crazy as it sounds, we would have two local lads with a passion for the team doing everything they can to instill the passion back into the club and with Dalglish as mentor, with his experience, could well lead the club into a whole new exciting era. When Dalglish retires for good, Gerrard and Carra will know enough to guide this club onwards to bigger and better things.

Just a thought mind, one I would be willing to try out.

With all due respect, you are letting your heart rule your head.

In an ideal world we would all love to see playing legends run our football clubs. But its simply not the way now.

Football clubs are businesses. There are millions upon millions of pounds invested, and potentially millions to be won or lost.

Whilst Carragher and Gerrard may know the club inside out, and would undoubtedly put their heart and soul into it, they just wouldnt be able to cope with the demands of the job. Its not as simple as turning up for training each day, pick the best 11, get the results then go home..

Those days are long gone. FOotball management isnt about knowing how to play football anymore. Thats why people like Hiddink, Mourhino, Mancini are where they are. Not because they were specifically gifted players with a wealth of knowledge and passion for a team. They are there because they can run a footballing business.

Much as how I see your point, leave Gerrard and Carragher where they belong, up their with your Liverpool Legends. Dont stick them into a task they are totally ill equipped to cope with and risk tarnishing their image through no fault of their own.

Yes they love Liverpool, but loving a club just isnt enough to run it these days. Those days belonged to the likes of Busby, Shankly and Clough.. Those managers wouldnt last 5 minutes in todays era... Much as how I would love those sorts of managers to come back..

Fair enough arguments but with todays game, who would know better about how to get the best out of the players in todays game? Surely those in the know, the players. Lets look at current day managers, Mark Hughes, just been sacked, Steve Bruce, another united legend who took up management (and still doing ok). They both left the club and took up management elsewhere. This is my argument for Gerrard and Carragher. They know todays game, they know who is good for the club and who isnt, they dont know the pressures, and this is where Dalglish would come in, his experience would be invaluable.

As Dalglish took over as player-manager in his day and became successful, there is nothing to say my idea wouldnt work in this current day. Its an idea that could well fall flat on its face, but which other club has put this idea into motion?

The pressures are their, but as players they know what the current day players are looking for, and how to get the best out of them. This could work quite well for the club, and like I said, I would be willing to take this route rather than go for some of the names branded around as potential replacements.

[NANNY RED]

Kharhaz mate i understand what your trying to say, but Stevie needs to gee them up on the pitch mate , he should be barking his captain like gob at them , an hes not even doing that mate, at the mo, So how can he do it as a manager

[LFC2007]

Fair enough arguments but with todays game, who would know better about how to get the best out of the players in todays game? Surely those in the know, the players. Lets look at current day managers, Mark Hughes, just been sacked, Steve Bruce, another united legend who took up management (and still doing ok). They both left the club and took up management elsewhere. This is my argument for Gerrard and Carragher. They know todays game, they know who is good for the club and who isnt, they dont know the pressures, and this is where Dalglish would come in, his experience would be invaluable.

As Dalglish took over as player-manager in his day and became successful, there is nothing to say my idea wouldnt work in this current day. Its an idea that could well fall flat on its face, but which other club has put this idea into motion?

The pressures are their, but as players they know what the current day players are looking for, and how to get the best out of them. This could work quite well for the club, and like I said, I would be willing to take this route rather than go for some of the names branded around as potential replacements.

Are you out of your mind??

They are still very much key players with big responsibilities on the pitch which demand their exclusive focus. They have no managerial experience whatsoever and we are in deep sh!t. If we're going to make a change we need to bring in an experienced manager, a top quality one preferrably with premiership experience, not some joint player-manager experiment.

[POKERJOKERZ]

Should rafa leave, I think we should give the reigns over to Gerrard and Carragher with Dalglish as mentor. As crazy as it sounds, we would have two local lads with a passion for the team doing everything they can to instill the passion back into the club and with Dalglish as mentor, with his experience, could well lead the club into a whole new exciting era. When Dalglish retires for good, Gerrard and Carra will know enough to guide this club onwards to bigger and better things.

Just a thought mind, one I would be willing to try out.

With all due respect, you are letting your heart rule your head.

In an ideal world we would all love to see playing legends run our football clubs. But its simply not the way now.

Football clubs are businesses. There are millions upon millions of pounds invested, and potentially millions to be won or lost.

Whilst Carragher and Gerrard may know the club inside out, and would undoubtedly put their heart and soul into it, they just wouldnt be able to cope with the demands of the job. Its not as simple as turning up for training each day, pick the best 11, get the results then go home..

Those days are long gone. FOotball management isnt about knowing how to play football anymore. Thats why people like Hiddink, Mourhino, Mancini are where they are. Not because they were specifically gifted players with a wealth of knowledge and passion for a team. They are there because they can run a footballing business.

Much as how I see your point, leave Gerrard and Carragher where they belong, up their with your Liverpool Legends. Dont stick them into a task they are totally ill equipped to cope with and risk tarnishing their image through no fault of their own.

Yes they love Liverpool, but loving a club just isnt enough to run it these days. Those days belonged to the likes of Busby, Shankly and Clough.. Those managers wouldnt last 5 minutes in todays era... Much as how I would love those sorts of managers to come back..

Fair enough arguments but with todays game, who would know better about how to get the best out of the players in todays game? Surely those in the know, the players. Lets look at current day managers, Mark Hughes, just been sacked, Steve Bruce, another united legend who took up management (and still doing ok). They both left the club and took up management elsewhere. This is my argument for Gerrard and Carragher. They know todays game, they know who is good for the club and who isnt, they dont know the pressures, and this is where Dalglish would come in, his experience would be invaluable.

As Dalglish took over as player-manager in his day and became successful, there is nothing to say my idea wouldnt work in this current day. Its an idea that could well fall flat on its face, but which other club has put this idea into motion?

The pressures are their, but as players they know what the current day players are looking for, and how to get the best out of them. This could work quite well for the club, and like I said, I would be willing to take this route rather than go for some of the names branded around as potential replacements.

THe two players you mention are in charge of average clubs, with little or no expectation.

Or at least that was the case at City, Until Sheikh Rattleandroll turned up.

Would those two be capable of coping with United, Chelsea or Liverpool.. Not a chance.

You can look good if there are no expectations placed upon you. But legends of a club have an added pressure because the qualities they showed as players have to carry on into management. The moment things dont go right, then not only does the managerial status go out the window, so does the legendary player status.

Look at Souness as an example. One of your greatest players in the 1980s, and worthy of legend status. From what I gather now ( and I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am ) many now just see him as a failed Liverpool manager totally inept and incapable of getting the best out of Liverpool.

If anyone was "into" the Liverpool spirit, it was Souness, and quite simply he couldnt cut it.

Daglish was most probably the last case of a manager coming from being a player, and succesfully continuing his legendary playing status onto management. But being fair, much of the ground work was set up for him to walk into. Gerrard and Carragher wouldnt have that luxury. They would have to start basically from scratch.

Legends they may be. Turning liverpool into a title contending team, under hte current circumstances.. Magicians they are not...

[Kharhaz]

Kharhaz mate i understand what your trying to say, but Stevie needs to gee them up on the pitch mate , he should be barking his captain like gob at them , an hes not even doing that mate, at the mo, So how can he do it as a manager

Simple, at this moment in time he is a player under rafa. We all know rafa as the stubborn man he is, his orders are final. How hard must it be for Gerrard to motivate the players when the manager cannot do it?

I remember the game against Everton a while back when Gerrard was substituted for Lucas (who did, in fairness, score the winning goal)  because he was over enthusiastic. There is only so much a captain can do on the pitch, but when the entire team have all but lost faith, not even jesus could motivate this lot.