Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

"This is 4-3-2-1 not 4-3-3..."



Please people... can someone educate this guy? 

[matt_liverpool]

<a href="http://img707.imageshack.us/i/chelsea433.jpg/" target="_blank"></a>


"This is 4-3-2-1 not 4-3-3..."

Please people... can someone educate this guy?

..and where did I say 'this is 4-3-3...not 4-3-2-1' ?

can someone educate this guy ?

[maguskwt]

you go chase your own tail mate... I'm out of here... the case is closed...

[matt_liverpool]

you go chase your own tail mate... I'm out of here... the case is closed...

ok..better luck next time mate. 

[Ben Patrick]

Chelsea use this 'flawed' formation you just mentioned against every team and rape almost everyone. But then they have the right personnel to do the job.

They definitely don't... their 4-3-3 is with ONE defensive midfielder... Essien or Mikel. We can also play like their 4-3-3, provided that our defensive midfielder Poulsen is good enough... it would be like this

Johnson    Carra      Agger   Aurelio/Konchesky

                       Poulsen

            Gerrard             Meiriless
     Kuyt                                 Cole
                        Torres

Ah so what you are saying is that because i put Meireles and Poulsen side by side they have to stay like that on the pitch and are both just sitting in front of the back four ?
From what i have heard about Meireles he is a box to box midfielder that will link the midfield and attack.
Just because i put him beside Poulsen on a line up wrote on a screen doesnt mean they actually have to be as rigid as that.
It is the same foramtion i had in mind as what Chelsea won the double with last season, but you can try and twist people in knots with how you interpret things all you like.

Does this make it seem better for you ?
Might look mad on paper but these are the sort of positions i would hope the midfielders would take up.


                      Poulsen

                      Meireles

                      Gerrard

Just looks weird when written on paper or on the screen.

[Bad Bob]

I'm confused.  Isn't the formation/personnel that Ben put up basically the same as the way Rafa set up the team for the last few seasons?  The two deeper CMs provide a platform for three more attacking players working "between the lines" behind Torres up top?  Width, by and large, is provided by the fullbacks.  To be fair, we've seen this system provide great success two years ago, when Alonso was one of the deep-lying CMs.  And we've seen it flounder last year with the Masch-Lucas axis.  If Meireles offers more than Lucas in terms of passing and driving the team forward and if Poulsen can approximate the Mash/Didi sit and disrupt role we could see this system work well again, IMO.

The essential difference between Ben's formation and Rafa's formation is that in the former, Kuyt and Cole is supporting Torres and Gerrard is too far behind to support Torres Hence it is more of a 4-3-3. In the latter Gerrard is supporting Torres... Rafa's formation is like this...


             Masch     Alonso
Kuyt                                     Riera
                 Gerrard
                           Torres

Sure, as diagrammed, but the game's a lot more fluid than that.  At times, we'll look like a 4-5-1, at times a 4-2-3-1, at times a 4-3-3...hell, if we're pouring forward in search of a vital goal against a park-the-bus side we might even look like a 2-3-5 as the fullbacks get forward and midfielders drop back to cover etc.  I just don't see the point of getting worked up about the minute and temporary differences between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3. 

The key, for me, is the personnel we put out.  If we play two recognized strikers together (Torres and Ngog, say) we'll play a very different way (call it 4-4-2 if you like) than if we play with an extra midfielder (Cole or Gerrard, say) in support of Torres (call it 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-5-1 or whatever you like--the point is, it's more fluid than these numeric codes suggest).  Personally, I'd like to see is giving the following a try:

                         Reina

Johnson          Carra      Agger     Aurelio/Konchesky


                Poulsen       Mereiles


          Kuyt           Gerrard        Cole

                        Torres

With Jovanovic, Pacheco and Maxi as the alternatives/subs for the "3" positions and with Babel and Ngog as the alternatives/subs for Torres.

[maguskwt]

The essential difference between Ben's formation and Rafa's formation is that in the former, Kuyt and Cole is supporting Torres and Gerrard is too far behind to support Torres Hence it is more of a 4-3-3. In the latter Gerrard is supporting Torres... Rafa's formation is like this...


             Masch     Alonso
Kuyt                                     Riera
                 Gerrard
                           Torres

Sure, as diagrammed, but the game's a lot more fluid than that.  At times, we'll look like a 4-5-1, at times a 4-2-3-1, at times a 4-3-3...hell, if we're pouring forward in search of a vital goal against a park-the-bus side we might even look like a 2-3-5 as the fullbacks get forward and midfielders drop back to cover etc.  I just don't see the point of getting worked up about the minute and temporary differences between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3. 

The key, for me, is the personnel we put out.  If we play two recognized strikers together (Torres and Ngog, say) we'll play a very different way (call it 4-4-2 if you like) than if we play with an extra midfielder (Cole or Gerrard, say) in support of Torres (call it 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-5-1 or whatever you like--the point is, it's more fluid than these numeric codes suggest).  Personally, I'd like to see is giving the following a try:

                         Reina

Johnson          Carra      Agger     Aurelio/Konchesky


                Poulsen       Mereiles


          Kuyt           Gerrard        Cole

                        Torres

With Jovanovic, Pacheco and Maxi as the alternatives/subs for the "3" positions and with Babel and Ngog as the alternatives/subs for Torres.

Sure Bob the game is always fluid we all know that. But if one HAS to put a diagram to Rafa's formation, i.e. if it has to be represented by a diagram, one would diagram it like how I did and not like how Ben did. If a manager shows the players your diagram and ben's diagram, for example, they will think differently about the roles they're suppose to play. At the end of the day a formation is not just putting numbers in a formation, it is about relationships and roles.

[Ben Patrick]

Well i am in work so wwasnt going into specifics regarding the 3 in the middle.
Particulaly as this is a Babel thread and i was just underlining the fact that in a 4-3-3 i think he might flourish.
The difference with the 4-5-1 that we have played him in in the past is that he is far wider in that formation and asked to track back etc.
He would get the ball in more dangerous positions in a 3 i think and would have less responsibility going the other way.
Having said all of this Babel would only be a sub at this moment in time anyway 

[ethanr]

Apparently nobody likes Jova much.

[Bad Bob]

Apparently nobody likes Jova much.

I think he'll prove useful but has not fully convinced me yet.  We'll see how it pans out.  It may be that he'll be part of our strongest 11, with Poulsen on the bench and Gerrard playing deeper with Meireles, for example.  Or maybe Kuyt goes through a poor patch and we switch Cole to the right, with Jova coming in on the left.  Early days yet.

[Zidane]

Apparently nobody likes Jova much.

I think he'll prove useful but has not fully convinced me yet.  We'll see how it pans out.  It may be that he'll be part of our strongest 11, with Poulsen on the bench and Gerrard playing deeper with Meireles, for example.  Or maybe Kuyt goes through a poor patch and we switch Cole to the right, with Jova coming in on the left.  Early days yet.

I think Jova has done well considering he hasn't had any sort of LB help at all in the matches where he's played.  Hopefully we get the best out of him once he can actually link up with the LB.  He's been asked to attack down the left on his own so I think he's suffered because of it.

[stmichael]

even in a testimonial, he was a sub

[bigmick]

Jovanovic isn't good enough IMHO.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

I think Babel should be  used as an impact sub to make the most of his unpredictability ...because if he has any concept  of his own ability it seems we are more likely to witness it when it comes  sporadically ,rather than witness his at times total inability to fit in with the play around him... it seems apparent to me the less time Babel  has for thought the more he acts on impulse and this is where he is potentially brilliant ,as we have all seen ....for eg his goal against Lyon ......

[SouthCoastShankly]

I'm confused.  Isn't the formation/personnel that Ben put up basically the same as the way Rafa set up the team for the last few seasons?  The two deeper CMs provide a platform for three more attacking players working "between the lines" behind Torres up top?  Width, by and large, is provided by the fullbacks.  To be fair, we've seen this system provide great success two years ago, when Alonso was one of the deep-lying CMs.  And we've seen it flounder last year with the Masch-Lucas axis.  If Meireles offers more than Lucas in terms of passing and driving the team forward and if Poulsen can approximate the Mash/Didi sit and disrupt role we could see this system work well again, IMO.

The essential difference between Ben's formation and Rafa's formation is that in the former, Kuyt and Cole is supporting Torres and Gerrard is too far behind to support Torres Hence it is more of a 4-3-3. In the latter Gerrard is supporting Torres... Rafa's formation is like this...


             Masch     Alonso
Kuyt                                     Riera
                 Gerrard
                           Torres

Sure, as diagrammed, but the game's a lot more fluid than that.  At times, we'll look like a 4-5-1, at times a 4-2-3-1, at times a 4-3-3...hell, if we're pouring forward in search of a vital goal against a park-the-bus side we might even look like a 2-3-5 as the fullbacks get forward and midfielders drop back to cover etc.  I just don't see the point of getting worked up about the minute and temporary differences between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3. 

The key, for me, is the personnel we put out.  If we play two recognized strikers together (Torres and Ngog, say) we'll play a very different way (call it 4-4-2 if you like) than if we play with an extra midfielder (Cole or Gerrard, say) in support of Torres (call it 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 4-5-1 or whatever you like--the point is, it's more fluid than these numeric codes suggest).  Personally, I'd like to see is giving the following a try:

                         Reina

Johnson          Carra      Agger     Aurelio/Konchesky


                Poulsen       Mereiles


          Kuyt           Gerrard        Cole

                        Torres

With Jovanovic, Pacheco and Maxi as the alternatives/subs for the "3" positions and with Babel and Ngog as the alternatives/subs for Torres.

I wouldn't mind seeing it either but Hodgson doesn't tend to play a 4-5-1.