Liverpool FC Forum

[woof woof !]

For me it's not just the dropped points (though obviously they're bad enough), it's more the way he's gone about the job these last couple of months. It's the first time we've seen him under the spotlight in terms of a title challenge (and as I said earlier he deserves credit for getting us there), and to be honest it hasnt been a pretty sight.

Pretty sight ?

In all honesty Mick I wouldn't give a sh'it if he went about the job riding a unicycle whilst shaving a monkeys a'rse and barking his team selections through a megaphone from the top of the liver building.

In his time with us he's restored Liverpool to a prime position both domestically and internationally and for some to suggest that if he doesn't bring home the premiership title this season he should be shown the door is imo Fu*king ludicrous.

[GYBS]

Mick - what were your expectations at the beginning of the season ?

[bigmick]

In his time with us he's restored Liverpool to a prime position both domestically and internationally and for some to suggest that if he doesn't bring home the premiership title this season he should be shown the door is imo Fu*king ludicrous.

In fairness Woof I'm not saying that. I'm saying I don't think he will the Premiership title this or any other season, and because of that we should look for somebody who will.

[kazza]

Well he has had three operations for kidney stones plus all the other bullsh1t behind the scenes. Perhaps you would not be at your best in the same situation. Thank God true supporters sang his name today to point out that fans like you ARE the minority.

You may find yourself in a position wanting Raffa to fail in order to say "I told you so" (despite the typical disclaimers)and judging by your recent history you will exercise that right. You must feel conflicted.

Oh dear 

"True supporters" sang his name. How does it make you any more "true" if you sang his name? Are they more superfans than those who don't?

As for the "wanting Rafa to fail" bit, it's the old "you want the team to lose" angle again I see. Deary deary me. Conflicted? Good word.


Anyway, I would ask anybody who finds the fact that I think we'd be better off changing the manager to be so offensive this simple question. Why? Why is is so offensive that I am of that opinion? What is so terrible? Is it terrible that I have the opinion, or is it terrible that I've voiced it?

Over the next season or two, my belief (which as Kazza points out is very much in the minority I should think) will either become the norm, or it will become ridiculous. The reason I hold such a view, is that I want Liverpool to win the title again in my lifetime and I think we'd have mroe chance of doing so with a different manager. If I'm wrong and rafa wins it, then lovely. I promise you here and now I'll be just as happy as any "true" fan, and equally I'll happily be on here to take all the abuse and the "stick that up your erse's" which I'll no doubt get, entirely deservedly.

The thing which baffles me though Kaz, is that I can't think of anyone's opinion one way or the other on any football matter I am less interested in than yours. Given that, why does my opinion bother you so much? It really is a constant mystery to me.

Someone posted " a supporter supports the team and a fan complains about a player (or manager) not playing well" so it baffles ME that a "supporter" is almost always negative towards the team. Your posts used to be balanced but now have become predictable. You are entitled to your opinion, and so am I. You voice you opinion and so do I.

If  my opinion is so unimportant why do you keep responding? It is not like I am personally attacking you. Maybe I should put one of these  or this stupid one  and my tone will be less offensive.

[woof woof !]

In his time with us he's restored Liverpool to a prime position both domestically and internationally and for some to suggest that if he doesn't bring home the premiership title this season he should be shown the door is imo Fu*king ludicrous.

In fairness Woof I'm not saying that. I'm saying I don't think he will the Premiership title this or any other season, and because of that we should look for somebody who will.

Mick , to be clear, my posts on this issue haven't been directed solely at you. Furthermore your statement 

I'm saying I don't think he will the Premiership title this or any other season

only reinforces my belief that buying the mentally bewildered a hula hoop will prove more productive than engaging them in meaningful conversation.

[Sabre]

In his time with us he's restored Liverpool to a prime position both domestically and internationally and for some to suggest that if he doesn't bring home the premiership title this season he should be shown the door is imo Fu*king ludicrous.

In fairness Woof I'm not saying that. I'm saying I don't think he will the Premiership title this or any other season, and because of that we should look for somebody who will.

In another thread opener, in early november, you were a tad more optimistic, seemed ok with initiating talks to renew his contract, and you were more optimistic because Rafa had changed his rotation policy.

You also said somewhere else that in your opinion this year could be a year of setting a base camp to win it, but we might fall short some points. The next year being the main attack season.

Now, you explain your legitimate reasons that made you reaching the conclussion you're writing in this asnwer to woof, which are based on how Rafa has responded to the pressure of the title, and Keane's case.

Granted the draws before this match had related to them some Rafa decissions that were baffling, and granted the Keane situation is strange in the best scenario. But, should be an awful January month enough to change your mind? it really must have annoyed you the last games, Mick.

Not that you don't give valid reasons nor those are not respectable, I'm just a bit surprised of such a change of opinion in such a small period of time, even if it's undeniable we've gone through a noticeable bliiip.

So that you understand my surprise, it's something I'd expect to read if we were in May and were off 7 points of the champion, but not now.

[bigmick]

Yes it probably does seem quite sudden Sabes, and by my standards it is a bit hasty. You're right though I am angry about the way things have been done. We have in all probability thrown away the best chance we have had in a decade of winning the Premiership by allowing petty squabbles, ego trips and nonsense to cloud our judgement. IMHO Rafa hs been grossly negligent these last couple of months, and although he may have woken up now, it may well be too late.


Why do I say negligent? Well you need to look no further than the Keane situation in todays match to see a good example. How can it possibly be beneficial to the teams chances of winning to have no viable striker option on the bench? That is utter madness. It matters not one iota whether Rafa wants people to believe Keane was entirely his signing, whether he didn't agree the fee, wanted Barry a smidgeon more or any other such nonsense. It should always be about the team, and too often recently it hasn't been. Admittedly with two minutes to go, Torres rescued us and the manager. But the spotlight would rightly have been on him and asking him why he went into the game without a credible striking substitute had it not happened. God only knows what we'd have done if Torres had got injured.

Even discussing contracts oin the media, never mind getting your pet journalist to lobby on your behalf during a title challenge is selfish behaviour of the worst kind. Trying to pass off the blame for spunking 20 million quid on a disasterous signing onto officials within the club is scandalous. Why did he wait until Keane had flopped first? If Keane had scored a dozen goals in his first 16 appearances at the start of the season, does anyone seriously believe the manager would have been saying "well to tell you the truth, I didn't actually want him"? Would he feck, he'd have been basking in the glory of a great signing. To do that to a player who is still on our books, when we needed him to be at least ready to step up was disgraceful. Once more, me before the team.

And then the judgement. Stick Lucas in for Alonso today and would we have won the game? Perhaps not, we didn't against Wigan either. A must win game and we decide to go on a stylathon. If Torres hadn't been on the pitch, would we have got a late winner? Probably not. We pulled him off against Wigan, AND Gerrard when we needed a goal. Surprise surprise we didn't get one.

I wanted a title challenge and we've got one. I said if we got one we didn't have to win it. But having seen the way the manager has conducted himself during that challenge, he isn't ever going to win it. We were seven points in front of Man Utd and they've gone past us like we were stood still. All that "we are in a fantastic position" nonsense. No mate, we WERE in a fantastic positionuntil we fecked it up, that's the truth of the matter.

[Sabre]

I can understand that we have lost several chances to make a cushion of points, and I've felt quite of dissapointment because of it.

I guess that simply in my case there was more credit left for the manager.

I understand your reasons to be angry which are basically the reasons most of us have been dissapointed as of late, but don't be so sure about the prediction part of your stance 

Even discussing contracts oin the media, never mind getting your pet journalist to lobby on your behalf during a title challenge is selfish behaviour of the worst kind

Just a quick note about this, I'm getting more and more annoyed with Guillem Balague. I'm getting tired of this "aura" he pretends to have of being very close to Rafa. You know, when he writes for the spanish in AS newspaper, he doesn't pretend to be close to Rafa... and it's my hunch that that's because the Spanish journos know that's not true.

I didn't like whatsoever what he wrote the other day about Rafa's contract, and the 6 players leaving. I don't like what he has written about Keane today, when it seems Keane won't be sold after all.

I think Rafa should put this opportunistic journo in his place because he's making him no favours.

[bigmick]

I think Rafa should put this opportunistic journo in his place because he's making him no favours.

You need to work on your english Sabes. What you mean is, he's making the manager look like a c...

[Sabre]

I need to work on my english but I wouldn't go that far. Because I never believed him to be that close to Rafa in the first place.

I think that journo is trying to pretend to be close to Rafa. Today he has stated as much as Keane not being on the team means he'd probably will be sold. We'll see what's true in all this. If it's bóllocks, I wouldn't pay attention to that guy again.

[Igor Zidane]

I've been sitting here and shaking my head for some time now over the sh'ite thats been posted about Rafa. He's certainly driven me nuts with some of his decisions and I understand how those decisions may have driven some to start or help push the "Rafa out" bandwagon. I get the feeling that much (not all) of it stems from the disappointment we all feel at the "dropped points" these last few weeks. Many seem to think that we could've nailed our name onto the title if it wasn't for Rafa's "poor decisions" AND YET no one seems to give him any credit for getting us into that position in the first place.

We're now in a situation where some in here are proposing that if we don't win the prem Rafa should go "cause he's blown it" , and yet at the start of the season many of the same people we're professing that they'd be happy if we just finished a lot closer to the eventual winners, the inference being that most of us thought we were still a season away from being real candidates for the title.

Well after today we're still very much REAL candidates (if not favourites) for the title and hopefully some of us might start to realise that despite his "mistakes" Benitez is the man who has got us there.

Good post this Woof.

For me it's not just the dropped points (though obviously they're bad enough), it's more the way he's gone about the job these last couple of months. It's the first time we've seen him under the spotlight in terms of a title challenge (and as I said earlier he deserves credit for getting us there), and to be honest it hasnt been a pretty sight.

The use of his pet journalist to further his contract negotiations, the ridiculous spinning to try and distance himself from the Keane transfer, the willingness to endanger the success of the team in order to prove some silly point, the ridiculous substitutions, the silly selctions, the rant, the interviews etc etc.

To me he has proven himself a good manager to get us to the point we can challenge (good for me not great, it's taken five years, a shedload of money, the relative disintegration of his rivals and the emergence of the best player in the World from within the ranks to do it), but once we've got there he has blown a gasket, and in all probability our chances of winning the thing.

His conduct over the Keane affair in particular has made me lose faith and respect in him. I give him some credit for getting us to where we are/were, but I also give him some credit for blowing our opportunity.

The thing with this post mick ,and of course your points and opinion are all fine and dandy . But it seems to me that your baseing alot of your opinions on what goes on behind the scenes on what your getting from the newspapers or from the tele . Alot of what is going on behind the scenes (and i can promise you this ) is the manager not being able to manage properley and having to fight fires most of the time . Ie the owners not talking ,or wanted to spend money on extending players contracts , transfers in or out of players and having to get the board to agree on these things . It's not rafa's decision , it's a board decision ,meaning Hicks ,gillett parry and moores all agreeing on something . Do you see where i'm coming from on this mick .

If i'm honest ,i don't honestly know why the manager hasn;'t walked before now ( we all know he is wanted elsewhere ) . So you've got to ask yourself this . Why in gods name would this man put up with the he has had to if he didn't love the club and wanted to see us succeed . Maybe he is bonkers and maybe he is feeling the pressure , but he's only human and if you had to put up with the sh!te that's been going on behind the scenes and build and sustain a title challenge ,then i think you would end up in broadoak mate.


Im my very humble opinion we will rue the day we lose this manager.

[taff]

My thoughts exactly Igor.

On a few points raised:

Why does it come across as a criticism that SG was at the club.  If thats the case then Rafa should be thanked everyday for turning around what the club had become when he joined.  Even Caras book says how SG's first words were what a state the club was in.  While Houllier did some wonderful things and history should be kinder to him the fact is that the club has not been managed properly at board level since the premiership started and was in a state.  Back to Sg and we know how he saves the day etc but he was at the club and it is his job so why the implication that its SG that saves Rafa.   

How about its Rafa thats allowed SG the freedom to flourish and improve.  Every story has two sides.  This is where the Kuyt bashers lose my sympathy as in a team game he does a load of work that allows other players to flourish, same with Mash.  If we use today as an example then look at the space that Alonso had due to this hard work by others, and if Alonso gets space then SG and Torres will benefit.  And its good to se Alberoa back who does make a difference.

Although the rant seems to have backfired my take on it is that Rafa did it for the long term and to sow seeds of doubt aboyt Man Utd and now we had Scolari joining in.  At least he had the bravery to do it with the inevitable backing of Ferguson from a media that he detests!!!.  On the subject of bravery, its embarrasing watching the club in the papers but its not a stable situation and maybe it needs Rafa to highlight it and move the club forward.  When people talk about our way etc ten think of this.  If Shanks had todays media there would be headlines every day as he had a few battles but he also onsisted on complete control of transfers, the same control that attracted Rafa here in the first place.

On the subject of Keane.  I like the guy and always have although I have to be honest that if he doesnt produce then why pick him.  Torres was out and keane had a chance although he didnt take it.  Before the he wasnt picked brigade start then please look at the facts.  This is a high pressure level and he has to deliver.  I hope he stays but if he goes then cest la vie as I am fed up as well with this situation but unlike some I dont lay the blame solely with Rafa.  If we want comparisons then look at Tevez who is blatantly being frozen out but produces and thats the level we have to be at to win the premiership simple as.  If you all wonder whu Kuyt well he does what he is told and works hard with criticism from the press and fans.  Interesting mind you that a lot of managers rate him and he has made the Dutch squad again.

We are second with more or less being there without Torres who is our main danger man and that is down to Rafa or SG only according to some although Im sure that there are others on the pitch.  The knives are out for him with people accvusing him of all sorts but with no proof.  Hers a few alternative theories that also have no proof or backing.

Keane wants the team to fit around his style and thats the rift.

Parry desperate for his role wants to retain transfer control and is using the Yanks situation to strengthen his own.

Alonso who was on the verge of leaving but stayed and acted professional for the benefit of the club is not happy with the attitude of some players who think they are more important than the club.

I made these up but they might sound ok but are still made up.   So why believe the media about Rafa and Keane etc.  Can anybody get a quote from Rafa saying he didnt want Keane or wants rid of him.  Maybe Keane is disruptive and Rafa is acting in a dignified way about one of his players.  In all his time here with Biscan and Traore etc has anybody ever heard him moan about anybody in the squad.  But the knives are out now and some people are hearing things that arent even being said.

Rafa to me looks fed up with the questions about his contract, are you cracking up etc so why do you think he would put himself in that position.  To get what he firmly believes is right for the club or to win and ego war where he gets it from the media and the fans.  Or maybe lets paper over the cracks and hope that somehow it works out or hasnt the last 19 years taught us anything

[Bam]

I've been sitting here and shaking my head for some time now over the sh'ite thats been posted about Rafa. He's certainly driven me nuts with some of his decisions and I understand how those decisions may have driven some to start or help push the "Rafa out" bandwagon. I get the feeling that much (not all) of it stems from the disappointment we all feel at the "dropped points" these last few weeks. Many seem to think that we could've nailed our name onto the title if it wasn't for Rafa's "poor decisions" AND YET no one seems to give him any credit for getting us into that position in the first place.

We're now in a situation where some in here are proposing that if we don't win the prem Rafa should go "cause he's blown it" , and yet at the start of the season many of the same people we're professing that they'd be happy if we just finished a lot closer to the eventual winners, the inference being that most of us thought we were still a season away from being real candidates for the title.

Well after today we're still very much REAL candidates (if not favourites) for the title and hopefully some of us might start to realise that despite his "mistakes" Benitez is the man who has got us there.

Spot on.

[Bam]

I'll walk past this Inbred Association AGM as gracefully as possible...

Think you are too quick to tar everyone with the same brush there. I don't think many posters are in favour of sacking Rafa even if they have lost faith in his long-term ability to win the big one. There a few out there like the Rock who champion (and even delight in) their thoughts on getting rid of the manager plus a good few like Peewee who, despite being consistent in his opinions, resemble a carrion bird making contributions only (for the most part) when the team is struggling.

I didn't read past the first couple of lines. I then scanned down the page and saw the usual suspects.

Sorry for any offence caused to those who weren't born to sibling parents.

Wa Wa Wa

[account deleted by request]

I've been sitting here and shaking my head for some time now over the sh'ite thats been posted about Rafa. He's certainly driven me nuts with some of his decisions and I understand how those decisions may have driven some to start or help push the "Rafa out" bandwagon. I get the feeling that much (not all) of it stems from the disappointment we all feel at the "dropped points" these last few weeks. Many seem to think that we could've nailed our name onto the title if it wasn't for Rafa's "poor decisions" AND YET no one seems to give him any credit for getting us into that position in the first place.

We're now in a situation where some in here are proposing that if we don't win the prem Rafa should go "cause he's blown it" , and yet at the start of the season many of the same people we're professing that they'd be happy if we just finished a lot closer to the eventual winners, the inference being that most of us thought we were still a season away from being real candidates for the title.

Well after today we're still very much REAL candidates (if not favourites) for the title and hopefully some of us might start to realise that despite his "mistakes" Benitez is the man who has got us there.

Good post this Woof.

For me it's not just the dropped points (though obviously they're bad enough), it's more the way he's gone about the job these last couple of months. It's the first time we've seen him under the spotlight in terms of a title challenge (and as I said earlier he deserves credit for getting us there), and to be honest it hasnt been a pretty sight.

The use of his pet journalist to further his contract negotiations, the ridiculous spinning to try and distance himself from the Keane transfer, the willingness to endanger the success of the team in order to prove some silly point, the ridiculous substitutions, the silly selctions, the rant, the interviews etc etc.

To me he has proven himself a good manager to get us to the point we can challenge (good for me not great, it's taken five years, a shedload of money, the relative disintegration of his rivals and the emergence of the best player in the World from within the ranks to do it), but once we've got there he has blown a gasket, and in all probability our chances of winning the thing.

His conduct over the Keane affair in particular has made me lose faith and respect in him. I give him some credit for getting us to where we are/were, but I also give him some credit for blowing our opportunity.

The thing with this post mick ,and of course your points and opinion are all fine and dandy . But it seems to me that your baseing alot of your opinions on what goes on behind the scenes on what your getting from the newspapers or from the tele . Alot of what is going on behind the scenes (and i can promise you this ) is the manager not being able to manage properley and having to fight fires most of the time . Ie the owners not talking ,or wanted to spend money on extending players contracts , transfers in or out of players and having to get the board to agree on these things . It's not rafa's decision , it's a board decision ,meaning Hicks ,gillett parry and moores all agreeing on something . Do you see where i'm coming from on this mick .

If i'm honest ,i don't honestly know why the manager hasn;'t walked before now ( we all know he is wanted elsewhere ) . So you've got to ask yourself this . Why in gods name would this man put up with the he has had to if he didn't love the club and wanted to see us succeed . Maybe he is bonkers and maybe he is feeling the pressure , but he's only human and if you had to put up with the sh!te that's been going on behind the scenes and build and sustain a title challenge ,then i think you would end up in broadoak mate.


Im my very humble opinion we will rue the day we lose this manager.

I really can't agree with this part of your post mate. Fighting for transfers !!! The one thing you CAN'T blame our new owners for is not giving him enough money for transfers. The FACT that most of the money has come in the form of additional loans on LFC is neither here nor there in this argument.

This season he has spent over £40million gross
Last season he spent over £70million gross.

Thats over £130million pounds spent on improving the squad in two years and he's so called fighting for transfer funds? And that is NOT including the bonus payments that we know about for Torres and Lucas that could add another £10million onto their fees.

And out of that £130million he has spent, how many players has he bought that are an unqualified success ?

He has brought in 23 players of which I would suggest only:-

Arbeloa, Mascherano, Skrtel, Torres, possibly Riera. Who's fees comes to less than £55million gross are unqualified successes.


I don't want to get into the rest of the argument because at the end of all the arguments and discussions we will all have our own opinions on what has gone on behind the scenes.

Argue that the transfers should not be in the form of loans against the club and I am with you all the way Igor, but IMO he has had the backing in the transfer market mate.