Liverpool FC Forum

[Number 9]

I'll walk past this Inbred Association AGM as gracefully as possible...

Think you are too quick to tar everyone with the same brush there. I don't think many posters are in favour of sacking Rafa even if they have lost faith in his long-term ability to win the big one. There a few out there like the Rock who champion (and even delight in) their thoughts on getting rid of the manager plus a good few like Peewee who, despite being consistent in his opinions, resemble a carrion bird making contributions only (for the most part) when the team is struggling.

I didn't read past the first couple of lines. I then scanned down the page and saw the usual suspects.

Sorry for any offence caused to those who aren't born to sibling parents.

Lando how do you know your mum and dad aint bro and sis?

Because I know/knew my grandparents. 

maybe they were bro and sis??

[Lando_Griffin]

I've been sitting here and shaking my head for some time now over the sh'ite thats been posted about Rafa. He's certainly driven me nuts with some of his decisions and I understand how those decisions may have driven some to start or help push the "Rafa out" bandwagon. I get the feeling that much (not all) of it stems from the disappointment we all feel at the "dropped points" these last few weeks. Many seem to think that we could've nailed our name onto the title if it wasn't for Rafa's "poor decisions" AND YET no one seems to give him any credit for getting us into that position in the first place.

We're now in a situation where some in here are proposing that if we don't win the prem Rafa should go "cause he's blown it" , and yet at the start of the season many of the same people we're professing that they'd be happy if we just finished a lot closer to the eventual winners, the inference being that most of us thought we were still a season away from being real candidates for the title.

Well after today we're still very much REAL candidates (if not favourites) for the title and hopefully some of us might start to realise that despite his "mistakes" Benitez is the man who has got us there.

Spot on.

Woof Woof! I am going to make you look  very silly now, and I fully presume you do not watch many LFC matches. If you had, you would have seen, like many LFc fans that our attack is not cutting edge , we do not create many chances, and that we have a lack of quality in depth.

if you can get that into your pea-sized brain, then we will at least then get a decent debate,

Lando agreeing, is luncay.

Just tell me anyone who thinks rafa is above criticism, where have we finished in the league for the past 4/5 seasons?

if so why?  who's fault is that? ? ? mine? yours? the dinnerladies???

get a reality check will you.! he has had 200m or so to spend, and houllier got less and about 4 seasons. so get Real will you.

you know nothing about football or what LFC is about!...WINNING! go and see through the history books what Bill Shankly is all about and what his morales were any of you who are unsure. its SIMPLE! like many posters without a clue!

Go to bed you silly little boy.

You have to look at the big picture, not the last 5 matches.

We made a habit of having nigh-on 20 shots at goal virtually every game before our "barren" spell.

Prune.

[Lando_Griffin]

I'll walk past this Inbred Association AGM as gracefully as possible...

Think you are too quick to tar everyone with the same brush there. I don't think many posters are in favour of sacking Rafa even if they have lost faith in his long-term ability to win the big one. There a few out there like the Rock who champion (and even delight in) their thoughts on getting rid of the manager plus a good few like Peewee who, despite being consistent in his opinions, resemble a carrion bird making contributions only (for the most part) when the team is struggling.

I didn't read past the first couple of lines. I then scanned down the page and saw the usual suspects.

Sorry for any offence caused to those who aren't born to sibling parents.

Lando how do you know your mum and dad aint bro and sis?

Because I know/knew my grandparents. 

maybe they were bro and sis??

Doubtful.

[Number 9]

That's Ok Lando, I wouldn't expect you to agree with me. TBPH I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, nor am I trying to convert any doubters. I resolved when I started the thread that I wasn't going to get involved in any name calling and nonsense, and I'm not. Equally, although I think we'd be best served looking for new manager, I remain a Liverpool fan through and through. As such, there seems little point in revisiting this issue in every thread, and I'll try my best to keep any views I have visa vis the long term future of the manager on here.

No sure about the "inbred" line, but as I know you're capable of much stronger than that I'll take it as almost an affectionate insult . As for the ownership issue, there is little doubt that any manager would have difficulty dealing with these two c...s, and more specifically the possibility we could get re-sold or go bust. Equally, I don't imagine for one second that our structure visa vis the involvement of Rick Parry is ideal. There are however other things which I have taken into account in coming to my conclusion, and which I have mentioned earlier in the thread. As I said there, I am not campaigning for any manager in, nor am i campaigning to remove the current manager. I am simply stating that from my own perspective, I think he can't take us any further.

Do you not feel more confident after today Mick?I thought it was an all round good display.I think only for Alex having the game of his life we'd have scored a lot earlier than we did.

It should really set alarms off in Rafas head after watching such a performance..that to field his best 11 is a must.Our passing and movement was better than it has been all season IMO.I thought we were superb and we were better before Lampard got sent off too!

Don't know about confident Baz, but I agree that we were excellent today. Obviously we were helped by the sending off, but I agree with you that even before that we were much the better team. They aren't a patch on the side they have been over the last three or four seasons (no doubt someone will go off at that but it is palpably obvious) but nontheless, it was a very good performance by us.

All that said, the very problems which have beset us recently were still fairly clearly on view. The wide midfield slots are a serious problem. Both Kuyt and Riera look like they are going through a bit of a trough to me, while Torres despite scoring twice is still below his best for me. Despite absolutely dominating the match it looked like we weren't going to break through, and for the last twenty minutes or so we had that "we've ran out of ideas" look about us.

When push comes to shove though, when we put our best team out we aint a bad side. We may not be as dynamic as some others, nor as fluent but we aren't a bad team. Our problems it seems to me are going to be three fold going forward.

1. Torres can't play in every single game. Nobody can as I've been told for the last four seasons by all and sundry. We haven't got another striker from what I can see. God knows what we'll do if Torres gets injured again.

2. Although the evidence is absolutely as plain as the nose on your face, Rafa cannot help himself with the pointless rotation. This will be even more magnified by the Champions League match against Madrid. Do not be in the least bit surprised if you see a raft of changes against Pompey in the next match.

3. As our wide midfielders are playing so poorly, it becomes much easier to park the bus against us. Our inability to break teams down may yet come to haunt us.


Obviously the result makes me more optimistic than a draw or heaven forbid a loss would have. It ought to make us pretty much certainties to get into the top four, and obviously it makes us the number one challengers to Man Utd. We'll see.

Mick I really dont think Kuyt or Riera were as poor as you make out today mate!Riera was below his usual standards and Kuyt was just Kuyt.They were our two worst players but neither really had a minger IMO.They were not that bad!
We moved the football excellently today and both were involved in plenty of what was positive.Theres no doubt we exploited the space after Fwank was sent off but thats another positive IMO,we used the ball well.I have to say i thought Scolari was very brave,being down to 10 men and bringing on Drogba and Deco...I guess he had to though as it was a game they could not afford to loose!It never worked though,both were non existant.

I agree with pretty much the rest of what you say ESPECIALLY the rotation is gonna happen bit!The bottom line is we will see Lucas and Babel a bit more in the next few games and that scares me...had either have started today our play would have broken down a hell of a lot more.Babel highlighted exactly why he's so shi'te today when he came on.The first thing he done was get the ball and bomb down the right like Linford Christie on a gram of speed,straight into two Chelsea players on his merry way.He never even looked up once to see if a pass was available!
Someone should tell him you dont get a prize for running fast with a ball at your feet and to give it to a team mate is better than to give it to someone in blue!

[redbeergoggles]

A deafening silence ushered in a new era ,when the dignity real fans show was given a brief moment to shine ,and hence the forums more patient posters enjoyed their moment in the sun ,and just for a short time revelled in the silence ............................................................
Or loosely translated just listened to the whole of Anfield chant Rafa's name ,maybe the realization that a place exists where this forums despondency and anxiety are mainly in the minority.   
Anyway work in the morning otherwise I would be out downing copious amounts of alcohol, once again

[bigmick]

I've been sitting here and shaking my head for some time now over the sh'ite thats been posted about Rafa. He's certainly driven me nuts with some of his decisions and I understand how those decisions may have driven some to start or help push the "Rafa out" bandwagon. I get the feeling that much (not all) of it stems from the disappointment we all feel at the "dropped points" these last few weeks. Many seem to think that we could've nailed our name onto the title if it wasn't for Rafa's "poor decisions" AND YET no one seems to give him any credit for getting us into that position in the first place.

We're now in a situation where some in here are proposing that if we don't win the prem Rafa should go "cause he's blown it" , and yet at the start of the season many of the same people we're professing that they'd be happy if we just finished a lot closer to the eventual winners, the inference being that most of us thought we were still a season away from being real candidates for the title.

Well after today we're still very much REAL candidates (if not favourites) for the title and hopefully some of us might start to realise that despite his "mistakes" Benitez is the man who has got us there.

Good post this Woof.

For me it's not just the dropped points (though obviously they're bad enough), it's more the way he's gone about the job these last couple of months. It's the first time we've seen him under the spotlight in terms of a title challenge (and as I said earlier he deserves credit for getting us there), and to be honest it hasnt been a pretty sight.

The use of his pet journalist to further his contract negotiations, the ridiculous spinning to try and distance himself from the Keane transfer, the willingness to endanger the success of the team in order to prove some silly point, the ridiculous substitutions, the silly selctions, the rant, the interviews etc etc.

To me he has proven himself a good manager to get us to the point we can challenge (good for me not great, it's taken five years, a shedload of money, the relative disintegration of his rivals and the emergence of the best player in the World from within the ranks to do it), but once we've got there he has blown a gasket, and in all probability our chances of winning the thing.

His conduct over the Keane affair in particular has made me lose faith and respect in him. I give him some credit for getting us to where we are/were, but I also give him some credit for blowing our opportunity.

[GYBS]

Got to agree with your post woof - 100% spot on in my eyes

and as for Rafas treatment of keane - how is he supposed to treat him ? should he get any special treatment than anyoe else in the squad ? is he one of the torres or gerrards or carras or pepes or (this season |) the xabis ? yes he has scored the odd goal but overall so far this season he has been nothing but ordinary and in a lot of games he has been poor and in the last couple been the worst player on the park by a mile .

Have we blown our opportunity already ? i thought we were still there - yes rafa made a few mistakes in subs etc but havent the players also blown the opportunity as well ?

[bigmick]

Got to agree with your post woof - 100% spot on in my eyes

and as for Rafas treatment of keane - how is he supposed to treat him ? should he get any special treatment than anyoe else in the squad ? is he one of the torres or gerrards or carras or pepes or (this season |) the xabis ? yes he has scored the odd goal but overall so far this season he has been nothing but ordinary and in a lot of games he has been poor and in the last couple been the worst player on the park by a mile .

Have we blown our opportunity already ? i thought we were still there - yes rafa made a few mistakes in subs etc but havent the players also blown the opportunity as well ?

Mate try writing a sentence that hasn't got a question mark at the end of it  .

[kazza]

I've been sitting here and shaking my head for some time now over the sh'ite thats been posted about Rafa. He's certainly driven me nuts with some of his decisions and I understand how those decisions may have driven some to start or help push the "Rafa out" bandwagon. I get the feeling that much (not all) of it stems from the disappointment we all feel at the "dropped points" these last few weeks. Many seem to think that we could've nailed our name onto the title if it wasn't for Rafa's "poor decisions" AND YET no one seems to give him any credit for getting us into that position in the first place.

We're now in a situation where some in here are proposing that if we don't win the prem Rafa should go "cause he's blown it" , and yet at the start of the season many of the same people we're professing that they'd be happy if we just finished a lot closer to the eventual winners, the inference being that most of us thought we were still a season away from being real candidates for the title.

Well after today we're still very much REAL candidates (if not favourites) for the title and hopefully some of us might start to realise that despite his "mistakes" Benitez is the man who has got us there.

Good post this Woof.

For me it's not just the dropped points (though obviously they're bad enough), it's more the way he's gone about the job these last couple of months. It's the first time we've seen him under the spotlight in terms of a title challenge (and as I said earlier he deserves credit for getting us there), and to be honest it hasnt been a pretty sight.

The use of his pet journalist to further his contract negotiations, the ridiculous spinning to try and distance himself from the Keane transfer, the willingness to endanger the success of the team in order to prove some silly point, the ridiculous substitutions, the silly selctions, the rant, the interviews etc etc.

To me he has proven himself a good manager to get us to the point we can challenge (good for me not great, it's taken five years, a shedload of money, the relative disintegration of his rivals and the emergence of the best player in the World from within the ranks to do it), but once we've got there he has blown a gasket, and in all probability our chances of winning the thing.

His conduct over the Keane affair in particular has made me lose faith and respect in him. I give him some credit for getting us to where we are/were, but I also give him some credit for blowing our opportunity.

Well he has had three operations for kidney stones plus all the other bullsh1t behind the scenes. Perhaps you would not be at your best in the same situation. Thank God true supporters sang his name today to point out that fans like you ARE the minority.

You may find yourself in a position wanting Raffa to fail in order to say "I told you so" (despite the typical disclaimers)and judging by your recent history you will exercise that right. You must feel conflicted.

[GYBS]

Got to agree with your post woof - 100% spot on in my eyes

and as for Rafas treatment of keane - how is he supposed to treat him ? should he get any special treatment than anyoe else in the squad ? is he one of the torres or gerrards or carras or pepes or (this season |) the xabis ? yes he has scored the odd goal but overall so far this season he has been nothing but ordinary and in a lot of games he has been poor and in the last couple been the worst player on the park by a mile .

Have we blown our opportunity already ? i thought we were still there - yes rafa made a few mistakes in subs etc but havent the players also blown the opportunity as well ?

Mate try writing a sentence that hasn't got a question mark at the end of it  .

Why ? would be like asking you to write a post shorter than a novel   

[bigmick]

Well he has had three operations for kidney stones plus all the other bullsh1t behind the scenes. Perhaps you would not be at your best in the same situation. Thank God true supporters sang his name today to point out that fans like you ARE the minority.

You may find yourself in a position wanting Raffa to fail in order to say "I told you so" (despite the typical disclaimers)and judging by your recent history you will exercise that right. You must feel conflicted.

Oh dear 

"True supporters" sang his name. How does it make you any more "true" if you sang his name? Are they more superfans than those who don't?

As for the "wanting Rafa to fail" bit, it's the old "you want the team to lose" angle again I see. Deary deary me. Conflicted? Good word.


Anyway, I would ask anybody who finds the fact that I think we'd be better off changing the manager to be so offensive this simple question. Why? Why is is so offensive that I am of that opinion? What is so terrible? Is it terrible that I have the opinion, or is it terrible that I've voiced it?

Over the next season or two, my belief (which as Kazza points out is very much in the minority I should think) will either become the norm, or it will become ridiculous. The reason I hold such a view, is that I want Liverpool to win the title again in my lifetime and I think we'd have mroe chance of doing so with a different manager. If I'm wrong and rafa wins it, then lovely. I promise you here and now I'll be just as happy as any "true" fan, and equally I'll happily be on here to take all the abuse and the "stick that up your erse's" which I'll no doubt get, entirely deservedly.

The thing which baffles me though Kaz, is that I can't think of anyone's opinion one way or the other on any football matter I am less interested in than yours. Given that, why does my opinion bother you so much? It really is a constant mystery to me.

[bigmick]

Got to agree with your post woof - 100% spot on in my eyes

and as for Rafas treatment of keane - how is he supposed to treat him ? should he get any special treatment than anyoe else in the squad ? is he one of the torres or gerrards or carras or pepes or (this season |) the xabis ? yes he has scored the odd goal but overall so far this season he has been nothing but ordinary and in a lot of games he has been poor and in the last couple been the worst player on the park by a mile .

Have we blown our opportunity already ? i thought we were still there - yes rafa made a few mistakes in subs etc but havent the players also blown the opportunity as well ?

Mate try writing a sentence that hasn't got a question mark at the end of it  .

Why ? would be like asking you to write a post shorter than a novel   

Tis a fair one I'll give you that 

[Number 9]

Well he has had three operations for kidney stones plus all the other bullsh1t behind the scenes. Perhaps you would not be at your best in the same situation. Thank God true supporters sang his name today to point out that fans like you ARE the minority.

You may find yourself in a position wanting Raffa to fail in order to say "I told you so" (despite the typical disclaimers)and judging by your recent history you will exercise that right. You must feel conflicted.

Oh dear 

"True supporters" sang his name. How does it make you any more "true" if you sang his name? Are they more superfans than those who don't?

As for the "wanting Rafa to fail" bit, it's the old "you want the team to lose" angle again I see. Deary deary me. Conflicted? Good word.


Anyway, I would ask anybody who finds the fact that I think we'd be better off changing the manager to be so offensive this simple question. Why? Why is is so offensive that I am of that opinion? What is so terrible? Is it terrible that I have the opinion, or is it terrible that I've voiced it?

Over the next season or two, my belief (which as Kazza points out is very much in the minority I should think) will either become the norm, or it will become ridiculous. The reason I hold such a view, is that I want Liverpool to win the title again in my lifetime and I think we'd have mroe chance of doing so with a different manager. If I'm wrong and rafa wins it, then lovely. I promise you here and now I'll be just as happy as any "true" fan, and equally I'll happily be on here to take all the abuse and the "stick that up your erse's" which I'll no doubt get, entirely deservedly.

The thing which baffles me though Kaz, is that I can't think of anyone's opinion one way or the other on any football matter I am less interested in than yours. Given that, why does my opinion bother you so much? It really is a constant mystery to me.

Not that Kazza is right Mick,hes miles off but LOOK
We are only 2 points behind UTD,yes they have a game in hand BUT,say we win next week or any week ffs and they loose?
Dont talk like that at least until we are out of it..We are not out of it as we stand!
had we lost today,different story but we absolutely crushed them ffs!

[GYBS]

I guess mick most people feel that getting a new manager would put the club back numerous steps in the search for the title - you yourself have said that it is bloody hard to step from 4th to win the league - it is a massive hurdle and this year it seems so far we making another step towards it - surely it would seem nonsense to get rid of the person who is helping us make those steps towards the title . We dont have bottomless pit like chelsea who could just go out and buy anyone to get the league we have to do it in steps . If we dont win the league then i think we will end up in second place behind the mancs . if thats the case would you want another manager to come in knowing he owuld want more time to develop his own players and ideas and that could take us back another coupl eof years . Taggert took 6 or 7 years to break our dominance and Rafa is getting close to winning the thing .

[bigmick]

I guess mick most people feel that getting a new manager would put the club back numerous steps in the search for the title - you yourself have said that it is bloody hard to step from 4th to win the league - it is a massive hurdle and this year it seems so far we making another step towards it - surely it would seem nonsense to get rid of the person who is helping us make those steps towards the title . We dont have bottomless pit like chelsea who could just go out and buy anyone to get the league we have to do it in steps . If we dont win the league then i think we will end up in second place behind the mancs . if thats the case would you want another manager to come in knowing he owuld want more time to develop his own players and ideas and that could take us back another coupl eof years . Taggert took 6 or 7 years to break our dominance and Rafa is getting close to winning the thing .

GYBS absolutely no offence, but if I answered that I'd be repeating what I've said a couple of times in previous posts. Ultimately the thread was very self centreed as a couple of people pointed out, it was basically all about me explaining why I'd come to my conclusion. I've kind of already done it, and if anyone brings up stuff which hasn't already been raised then by all means I'll give an answer as best I can.

Pretty much most of what you ask though I've already posted earlier. To come back to Barry's point, no we aren't out of it mate by any means. I did actually say during the week that if we beat Chelsea we had chances and we do. I should think we are going to have to win at Old Trafford as well to be in there, but it's not impossible.

As i keep saying though, hand on heart I think we'll probably blowitbefore thenwith a daft team selection or some ridiculous substitutions. That is of course if we haven't blown it already.