Liverpool FC Forum

[Leonmc0708]

You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

Against Man city ? The problem hasn't been Keane not making an impact from the bench (5) but him being substituted in so many games (18)

No, the problem has been he has not scored in those games in which he took part.

If he had scored then I guarantee:

1) He would not have looked like someone had just bummed his bird when his number went up

2) We would be in a better league position

3) No one would be talking about him going, staying leaving etc

Kuyt ? How many more goals did he score than Keane when he was played as a striker. How many games was he subbed? Was he shoved off ?

I have always said Keane wasn't what Liverpool wanted or needed, but I do feel that he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip

You said the problem was him getting subbed.

I said the problem as him not scoring enough goals.

You lose the argument so you start tallking about Kuyt.

Why ?

[account deleted by request]

You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

Against Man city ? The problem hasn't been Keane not making an impact from the bench (5) but him being substituted in so many games (18)

No, the problem has been he has not scored in those games in which he took part.

If he had scored then I guarantee:

1) He would not have looked like someone had just bummed his bird when his number went up

2) We would be in a better league position

3) No one would be talking about him going, staying leaving etc

Kuyt ? How many more goals did he score than Keane when he was played as a striker. How many games was he subbed? Was he shoved off ?

I have always said Keane wasn't what Liverpool wanted or needed, but I do feel that he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip

You said the problem was him getting subbed.

I said the problem as him not scoring enough goals.

You lose the argument so you start tallking about Kuyt.

Why ?

I think we are at cross purposes here mate, I was replying to GBYS's question :-

yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ?

So I suggested that he did well when he came on against Citeh, and that it hasnt been the fact that he has come on in five games and hasn't produced but the fact that he has been taken off in 18 games.

If you want to talk about what I think the real problem has been with Keane I am more than willing to oblige.

[Judge]

Good posts here including IMHO the first line of Kazaa's. I don't want to batter Mick - he's one of the main reasons to read this forum, it's best poster. His opinion is often different to mine, his posts rile me up but he may well be 'righter' than me - it's what a footie forum should be all about.

I have always had great belief in Rafa. I'm not planning to change that just yet - I'll reassess things at the end of the season. My belief has been shaken a bit in the last month - for reasons concisely summarised by Lyndsey. The Robbie Keane paradox is becoming clearer - Im deeply disappointed that Rafa appears to have used him as a political tool to the detriment of our club and title chances. It seems like he wanted him but not in preference to Barry and not for £20 million. But, Rafa, once you've got him you should try and get the most out of him for the good of the club. You tried but not hard enough because you couldn't get past the fact that you didn't have complete control over the deal.

However, rather than a complete overhaul and another rebuilding process (how many more of these can we finance in the current economic climate) I think a tweaking of the current setup is all we need. A bit more aggression and risk when it's 0-0 or 1-0  could turn a lot of our draws into wins. Just a slight change in offensive mentality, a bit more willingness to go for it. Let the player off the leash a bit.

I think we're precariously balanced as a club. Owners in financial trouble. The club in debt - with loans we possibly can't repay. Deep and probably irreparable divisions between the chief executive and the manager - surely one of them has to go. And as Lakes talked about - the gloabl financial crises has yet to fully hit fully. I believe that when it does theres going to be clubs that don't survive. I don't want LFC to be reduced to a shadow of it's former self.

Be careful what you wish for those who want Rafa out. Picture the outlook if goes. I think most people on here dont even try and understand his managerial, tactical style. Play your best eleven every game. Play 4-4-2. Always play a striker when he's in form. His first aim was to build a solid spine - no-one can argue that he's done that brilliantly. In the summer he talked about improving our full-backs - to be more attack minded and suit the modern game - miserable  fail. Picture the mass exodus the complete collapse of the spine if he leaves. Not good.

Rambling, hungover post this. I need to go get a flight. I'm going to shout my friggin' head off today especially when the Rafa song starts up (and I think it will). The response of the crowd today to recent events will be massive.

cracking toast grommit.

[Leonmc0708]

You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

Against Man city ? The problem hasn't been Keane not making an impact from the bench (5) but him being substituted in so many games (18)

No, the problem has been he has not scored in those games in which he took part.

If he had scored then I guarantee:

1) He would not have looked like someone had just bummed his bird when his number went up

2) We would be in a better league position

3) No one would be talking about him going, staying leaving etc

Kuyt ? How many more goals did he score than Keane when he was played as a striker. How many games was he subbed? Was he shoved off ?

I have always said Keane wasn't what Liverpool wanted or needed, but I do feel that he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip

You said the problem was him getting subbed.

I said the problem as him not scoring enough goals.

You lose the argument so you start tallking about Kuyt.

Why ?

I think we are at cross purposes here mate, I was replying to GBYS's question :-

yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ?

So I suggested that he did well when he came on against Citeh, and that it hasnt been the fact that he has come on in five games and hasn't produced but the fact that he has been taken off in 18 games.

If you want to talk about what I think the real problem has been with Keane I am more than willing to oblige.

Er Yer OK.

[GYBS]

You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

Against Man city ? The problem hasn't been Keane not making an impact from the bench (5) but him being substituted in so many games (18)

No, the problem has been he has not scored in those games in which he took part.

If he had scored then I guarantee:

1) He would not have looked like someone had just bummed his bird when his number went up

2) We would be in a better league position

3) No one would be talking about him going, staying leaving etc

Kuyt ? How many more goals did he score than Keane when he was played as a striker. How many games was he subbed? Was he shoved off ?

I have always said Keane wasn't what Liverpool wanted or needed, but I do feel that he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip

And who scored the winner against citeh ? was it not kuyt ?

Also kuyt was up front when we destroyed newcastle - yeah he himself didnt score but was involved a lot mroe than keane has . it hard to remember the real imapct keane has had bar a goal against arsenal and a couple against bolton . overall he has disappointed in the main .

yes he did come off a few time (ie a lot ) but surely in the 60 -75 mins before he came off he didnt show enough in the majority of those games to deserve to stay on mate

[Zidane]

You keep mentioning the treatment of keane being a factor in derailing oour challenge yet when he has played bar a coupl eof games he hasnt done enough mate and a coupl eof our most impressive performances ie chelsea and newcastle lately have all occured without keane playing and also earlier in the season we won games once keane had been taken off ? yeah he could be on the bench as an option but then again when has he come off and made an impact ? and maybe just maybe not playing keane or putting him on the bench was in the interests of the club and not in the interests of the player ?

Against Man city ? The problem hasn't been Keane not making an impact from the bench (5) but him being substituted in so many games (18)

No, the problem has been he has not scored in those games in which he took part.

If he had scored then I guarantee:

1) He would not have looked like someone had just bummed his bird when his number went up

2) We would be in a better league position

3) No one would be talking about him going, staying leaving etc

Kuyt ? How many more goals did he score than Keane when he was played as a striker. How many games was he subbed? Was he shoved off ?

I have always said Keane wasn't what Liverpool wanted or needed, but I do feel that he hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip

And who scored the winner against citeh ? was it not kuyt ?

Also kuyt was up front when we destroyed newcastle - yeah he himself didnt score but was involved a lot mroe than keane has . it hard to remember the real imapct keane has had bar a goal against arsenal and a couple against bolton . overall he has disappointed in the main .

yes he did come off a few time (ie a lot ) but surely in the 60 -75 mins before he came off he didnt show enough in the majority of those games to deserve to stay on mate

Was Keane not starting the majority of the games early in the season that took us atop the league?  He played his part, he could have been better, no excuses for that but he has played well on and off all season long.  The inconsistency in large part has to do with him being subbed off constantly and not being played after scoring etc etc.

He still should have done better but he did well enough to earn more time than what he was given.  None of this matters though as he's being shipped out but good luck to him.  His attitude ON the pitch never helped matters also, who knows how he was off it but at times he was very childish on the pitch.

[account deleted by request]

.

Er Yer OK.

Keane is not good enough for us. He is not a creative second striker....... never has been never will be. He is a striker that likes to run from deep. We needed EITHER a creative player taking over the Gerrard role or someone who could play both with Torres and as a lone striker when Torres is injured. Keane can do neither. Keane is a player that runs into spaces (filling it) when what we needed was a player that creates space by intelligent running.

When I said before Keane came (when we still thought he would cost about £12million) that I didn't really rate him, I think there was only StMichael agreed with me.

I still believe with better management he would have got goals for us, I have just never believed he would create a lot of goals for us.

He is neither fish nor fowl unfortunately and just why we bought him in the first place I will never know

[GYBS]

Also zidane if keane had been the success we wanted and the club wanted he would of played a lot more and wouldnt be going anywhere right now - if he was scoring goals and setting up goals on a regular basis we wouldnt be having this chat . Two games this season where we have really played very very well ie chelsea on sun and against newcastle - keane wasnt involved .

[GYBS]

.

Er Yer OK.

Keane is not good enough for us. He is not a creative second striker....... never has been never will be. He is a striker that likes to run from deep. We needed EITHER a creative player taking over the Gerrard role or someone who could play both with Torres and as a lone striker when Torres is injured. Keane can do neither. Keane is a player that runs into spaces (filling it) when what we needed was a player that creates space by intelligent running.

When I said before Keane came (when we still thought he would cost about £12million) that I didn't really rate him, I think there was only StMichael agreed with me.

I still believe with better management he would have got goals for us, I have just never believed he would create a lot of goals for us.

He is neither fish nor fowl unfortunately and just why we bought him in the first place I will never know

If i was on the forum at the time i would of agreed with you one hundred per cent mate - never wanted keane and also thought he wasnt the player we needed .

[bigmick]

Anyway, where was I, Oh yes that's right, planning and the squad.

Right, since we have just sold our only viable replacement striker and we don't have a replacement, what are we to do? Assuming that Torres stays fit for the remainder of the season (because surely we are assuming that) then in the 25% or so of game time in which our only recognised striker can't play, who are we going to play up front? Mt guess is that we are about to let the Babelians have their day. It will be interesting, not least because it's fairly clear that if Babel is going to make it as a top player, it is going to be as a striker. I say that not because he's demonstrated any particular ability for it, but because we know from experience he isn't going to be a left midfielder or a right midfielder, striker is the only option left.

So he may come off, who knows? Unfortunately, nobody. That's precisely my problem with the current manager. We are prepared to risk our title challenge in order to prove some silly point. Self before the team, I have no time for it or for the manager.

[sgs]

Anyway, where was I, Oh yes that's right, planning and the squad.

Right, since we have just sold our only viable replacement striker and we don't have a replacement, what are we to do? Assuming that Torres stays fit for the remainder of the season (because surely we are assuming that) then in the 25% or so of game time in which our only recognised striker can't play, who are we going to play up front? Mt guess is that we are about to let the Babelians have their day. It will be interesting, not least because it's fairly clear that if Babel is going to make it as a top player, it is going to be as a striker. I say that not because he's demonstrated any particular ability for it, but because we know from experience he isn't going to be a left midfielder or a right midfielder, striker is the only option left.

So he may come off, who knows? Unfortunately, nobody. That's precisely my problem with the current manager. We are prepared to risk our title challenge in order to prove some silly point. Self before the team, I have no time for it or for the manager.

We got to this point with minimal input from Torres. Who knows, we may well get better if something happens to him..Like u say who knows...

Having said that, anyone who thinks the manager is not aware of this and has thus made no contingency for it has to be joking..I mean if we the fans could figure it out, how much more the manager.

Like u said, we simply do not know. But us not knowing, cannot somehow transform to the manager not knowing or doing anything about it. Thats what renders the whole logic faulty at best...

[bigmick]

I'm not sure I share your confidence that the manager has a contingency in mind even though we can't work it out. Some of us have been around this forum for a long time, and there have been numerous occasions where the manager has done things which some of us couldn't work out. A few times mate the fullness of time has proven that the reason we couldn't work them out was quite simply because they were b0ll0cks (mass rotation from game one of a season being a prime example). Other times, practically the whole forum has screamed about a fairly obvious problem, nothing has been done and then the problem has suraced and kicked us in the nuts. A classic example of this would be when we failed to sign Gabriel Hienz in pre season to the one before this. This left us with only three centre backs (one short) and everyone was up in arms. Nothing was done, then lo and behold we got a couple of injuries, a suspension (which centre halves tend to get of course) and we were fecked. We did rectify the situation in window by signing Skyrtel, but we were also well and truly out of any title race by then.

And so now, we are left with only one proven striker at the club (kind of two if you include Gerrard, which I guess we must do in all honesty). Kuyt we know from experience is absolutely incapable of the job. He isn't good enough as a striker and has proven this to be the case beyond any sensible debate. N'Gog may I suppose be about to set the World alight, but looking at him so far it does requitre a stretch of the imagination to believe that. No, the only option appears to be Babel, who has just occasionally shown flashes of something (I'm not terribly sure what IT is, but there's something anyway).

Well here's my beef. Had we tried babel up top a few times and given him a bit of a regular go, we might have something to go on. At this point, someone will say "but they may well have in training", but that isn't the same. They could have given Babel a go while they were booking Keane's train tickets to Coventry, at least then we would have been planning for a future eventuality. Instead of that, we go into the next game at Portsmouth needing extra baggage space on the plane on account of all the cotton wool we need to wrap Torres up in. There's no use convincing yourself that contingency plans have been made, meticulously put together over painstaking months of study,. We have what we have. Unless we can swerve somebody in on loan over the next couple of hours, we are stuck with what we've got.

If Torres stays fit and shoots us to the title, great. If he gets injured, we need some luck with either Babel or Egg Nog. If we get some, lovely, if we don't we are fecked.

[parchpea]

There is no plan I agree. What we have is in fighting, battling egos and no one willing to give an inch for the greater good of the football club. This made the transfer deadline difficult given there is no communication or trust with any of those involved behind the scenes. We have taken the Keane money and run and now go forth on a wing and a prayer in hope that what we have will be enough. I am not convinced it will be. For my money the sooner the lot pack up and go and take their petty arguments and nit picks with them the better. Its a farce and Liverpool FC is much better than them. No plans just day to day as none of them have a clue which direction the club is taking and neither do we. At this point we can argue the team has managed improvement on the field which all things considered is a small miracle in itself but by the end I have doubt it will be enough to fulfill our hopes and expectations.

[Bad Bob]

Anyway, where was I, Oh yes that's right, planning and the squad.

Right, since we have just sold our only viable replacement striker and we don't have a replacement, what are we to do? Assuming that Torres stays fit for the remainder of the season (because surely we are assuming that) then in the 25% or so of game time in which our only recognised striker can't play, who are we going to play up front? Mt guess is that we are about to let the Babelians have their day. It will be interesting, not least because it's fairly clear that if Babel is going to make it as a top player, it is going to be as a striker. I say that not because he's demonstrated any particular ability for it, but because we know from experience he isn't going to be a left midfielder or a right midfielder, striker is the only option left.

So he may come off, who knows? Unfortunately, nobody. That's precisely my problem with the current manager. We are prepared to risk our title challenge in order to prove some silly point. Self before the team, I have no time for it or for the manager.

What a complete and utter shambles the Keane situation has been from start to finish and this just takes the biscuit.  Letting one of our few recognized strikers depart without a replacement is absolute lunacy.  Who'll be surprised if the grand plan will be to recall Voronin?  I'm in utter disbelief that we've let things play out this way. 

[Sabre]

What a complete and utter shambles the Keane situation has been from start to finish and this just takes the biscuit.  Letting one of our few recognized strikers depart without a replacement is absolute lunacy

I can't find a reasonable explanation. But before saying it's lunacy I'll wait for an official explanation.

I'd only understand this decission if Rafa was told "look, we need 10M to pay to the bank or the clubs crumbles". Other than being forced by something like that, it's unbelievable all the situation.

I have seen some Spanish strange things  in 3 decades, and believe me in Spain happen very strange things, but I have never seen a 20M player leaving in 6 months and with no replacement.

Strange. I'd like to know what the fúck is going on.