Liverpool FC Forum

[aCe']

I know many are going to b1tch about not having a third option where we keep both and build on what we already have, but what if Rafa already has someone lined up and is depending on selling one of the pair to finance the deal ... who would we rather lose ?
Lets just assume that they'd both go for similar fees (around the 25-30mill mark....

Now to me, id rather lose Mascherano than Alonso tbh... Alonso offers much more in terms of creativity and control of tempo.. dont think we have/had too many problems controlling games when Mascherano isnt around..
Certainly, against the stronger sides his presence in the side is a big plus, but in 9 games out of 10 i'd say he offers too little in an attacking sense, and his defensive qualities are overshadowed by his poor attacking play...

[Bad Bob]

If forced to sell one, I'd sell Masch but, then, most people might have guessed that one.   Same logic as aCe'--Masch is vital against the big sides but sometimes feels surplus to requirements against the rest.  He's a fantastic player, no question, but if our problem is breaking down park-the-bussers he's the one that should make way if we needed to sell one to finance a big transfer.

[account deleted by request]

I think Masch would be cheaper to replace and probably with less problems to the team setup, but I feel that the much needed extra creativity should be brought in to concentrate more on the creative side...... something I don't think could happen paired with Alonso. If we bring in a genuine all round CM I would probably choose Masch to go. Bring in a more creative player and it would be Alonso to go. Certainly if we are so desperate for money and have to sell without buying a suitable replacement, I would sell Alonso, as in my opinion Lucas plays much better when paired with Masch.

For me Alonso doesn't create enough, while Masch does his job, so I voted to sell Alonso. (I also think when Masch is at the top of his game he is World class, sadly he has only shown this in a few games this season)

[tubby]

I voted Alonso. I also think he doesn't create enough. Masch does his job but we need someone more proactive to create and score.

[GYBS]

Rock and hard place for me , cant really answer it has they both extremely important players for us .

[DrPepe]

i voted alonso to madrid

1. they've got lots of money, and i'm sure will pay more than we'd get for mascher. Therefore we can pay off more debt with the proceeds afford to buy better players

2. I have a strange feeling that gerrard & masch would work really well in midfield  - the pairing have a lot more pace than alonso/gerrard, and we know that mascherano will stick to his role when gerrard abandons midfield to bomb forward and gift possession  back to the opposition    what you lose marginally in "control" you gain in quick counter-attacking

[roberto green]

I hate to be a misery but I can see both going, we are in financial meltdown and the greedy american twits will try to raise as much money as poss

[Bad Bob]

For me Alonso doesn't create enough, while Masch does his job, so I voted to sell Alonso. (I also think when Masch is at the top of his game he is World class, sadly he has only shown this in a few games this season)

For the sake of a bit of discussion, I've highlighted this part of your post, mate, because I think you could look at it in a very different way.  Masch may do his job but it's a job that perhaps isn't that vital against all but a handful of teams.  Do we really need him against the likes of Sunderland at Anfield, for instance?  Whereas, with Alonso we have a player that dictates tempo from deep (i.e. the deep-lying playmaker) and who also does a solid job of shielding the back four when necessary--which should be sufficient against many teams in the league.  Plus, as you say, we could probably replace Masch more easily with a cheaper alternative for the 'big' games where a spoiler is needed so, from that perspective, keeping Alonso would make more sense too.  As for Xabi not creating enough, I guess that depends on what kind of expectations you have.  As a deep-lying playmaker he surely can't be expected to be playing 1-2s around the "D" most of the match.  I see his role as dictating tempo and providing the platform for our attacks--which he does very well (i.e. he does his job).  Since he's been, by everyone's admission, back to his best this season and since this has been a season that has seen as collect a record number of points and outscore everyone in the league, I'd say he does create enough.  Put another quality attacker in front of him to complement Gerrard, Torres and the likes of Kuyt, Benayoun and Riera when on form and we'll be in great shape IMO.

[aCe']

Gotta agree with ya Bob... look at manutd playing Fletcher when they need that type of player... not half the player mascherano is mind you but he does the job... and believe it or not as sad as it sounds they did miss him against barce in the champs league final... Mascherano is a very good player... but he just doesnt do enough for me in most games...

Alonso... i agree that sometimes given his quality and passing and shooting ability you'd expect more from him than he offers, but ill say it again... around better players im sure Alonso will shine even brighter than he did this season... If we can bring in better quality down the flanks for Alonso to link up with and pick out with his long balls, im sure he'll be offering much more in terms of direct impact on our attacking moves in seasons to come if he stays...

Alonso to stay all the way for me... + Mascherano is way too overrated by our own for my liking

[redhayesy]

I voted Alonso. I also think he doesn't create enough. Masch does his job but we need someone more proactive to create and score.

sorry mate but strongly dis-agree with you on this one, alonso is for me such an important player for us. we should be building any futher signings around him!

he was awsome for us this season, his attitude was first class,totally un-questionable imho he creates so much time & space for SG to enable him to play the free role that it's down to alonso's skill vision etc that made chances in the first place.

i hate these polls if i'm honest cause i also really rate masha! & would hate the thought of either leaving us. as both do such an excellant job for the side that it's what makes us tick.

it comes to somthing when we even have to discuss who would we want to sell,cause for me we should be applording both players for their energy,commitment,& wanting to play for us rather than who goes first. it all comes down to yet again money,who can we get the most money for etc. FECK OFF YOU YANK TW@TS for putting our club in this position in the first place. we have & never should be a selling club.

i would be sincely gutted if we sold either player as both were worthy winners of player of the season for me.

[account deleted by request]

For me Alonso doesn't create enough, while Masch does his job, so I voted to sell Alonso. (I also think when Masch is at the top of his game he is World class, sadly he has only shown this in a few games this season)

For the sake of a bit of discussion, I've highlighted this part of your post, mate, because I think you could look at it in a very different way.  Masch may do his job but it's a job that perhaps isn't that vital against all but a handful of teams.  Do we really need him against the likes of Sunderland at Anfield, for instance?  Whereas, with Alonso we have a player that dictates tempo from deep (i.e. the deep-lying playmaker) and who also does a solid job of shielding the back four when necessary--which should be sufficient against many teams in the league.  Plus, as you say, we could probably replace Masch more easily with a cheaper alternative for the 'big' games where a spoiler is needed so, from that perspective, keeping Alonso would make more sense too.  As for Xabi not creating enough, I guess that depends on what kind of expectations you have.  As a deep-lying playmaker he surely can't be expected to be playing 1-2s around the "D" most of the match.  I see his role as dictating tempo and providing the platform for our attacks--which he does very well (i.e. he does his job).  Since he's been, by everyone's admission, back to his best this season and since this has been a season that has seen as collect a record number of points and outscore everyone in the league, I'd say he does create enough.  Put another quality attacker in front of him to complement Gerrard, Torres and the likes of Kuyt, Benayoun and Riera when on form and we'll be in great shape IMO.

The problem is even with "Alonso dictating the tempo," we are still failing to break teams down. Stoke 0-0 home and away, Fulham at home, West Ham at home etc etc.

We need someone who is more creative in the final third, and who can occasionally run with the ball creating space for other players, someone who creates actual chances. Its no point having the majority of the possession if you aren't creating enough chances to win games.

IMO it comes down to a choice of either improving our wide players (bringing in more threat and creativity) or improving through the middle ...... which has to be Alonso.

Alonso has shown his defensive limitations in the past as our record against top sides shows, and so if we need more creativity we cannot rely on Alonso and bring in a creative partner. Therefore I would argue that to improve our creativity in the final third we would have to partner Masch with a more creative partner than Alonso.

Obviously my preference would be to bring in a more creative player even further forward (Tevez/Silva)  Sadly I don't think that will be an option given our current financial situation. So if forced I would sell Alonso and bring in a very creative attacking midfielder. 

Alonso for me is the perfect player for counter attacking football, but unfortunately its against the "park the bus" boys that his limitations show.

In an ideal world we would sign a creative second striker and keep both, but Alonso for me is not a defensive midfielder, and so he would be my choice to go.

[bigmick]

It's an interesting question and not as straight forward as it at first seems. My guess is that pretty much everyone would instantly hit the "sell mash" option (particularly as there isn't an "others" which obviously I'd press and then think of one). It kind of comes back though to the thread of a while ago where the question was posed "what is Rafa thinking of" when considering selling Alonso.

Not for the first time, S@int is onto something I think with his talk of the difficulty of breaking down the bus parkers. Equally, we have to ask (as some people have) what's the point of Masherano? I personally think that the point of Masherano is that he is so good as a defensive midfielder that his partner is given license to basically feck off and do whatever he wants. Sit Masherano in front of a decent back four (and I think we need a better centre half TBH) and his partner is given the opportunity to "unleash hell". Does Xabi do it enough? Well it's arguable.

Clearly though, we have to create more from somewhere. My personal feeling is that against the bus parkers (little did Mourinho know his phrase would be enshrined into English football, just like his points record) clearly we need to do something. We could just say that our number of draws over the last TWO seasons is just bad luck, one of those things, down to the refs and the rest, or on the other hand we could be sensible. Now it's hard to imagine an improvement on Gerrard and Torres, so it's either the wide areas or in central midfield that something needs to happen.

My own preference would be to keep Alonso if humanly possible, as I think the sum of his parts is still significant. I think though to get round a massed defence you need to move the ball quickly. You need fluidity of movement, imagination, pace, instant control, vision. You need players who can beat a man, can see a pass. If you look at our front five (discounting Masherano as the sitter) there is one glaring weak link in the chain. Apologies to the Kuyt-hawks, but sometimes difficult decisions have to be made. Sometimes players have to be moved on at the absolute optimum of their value graph. If anyone needs to make way, for me it's Dirk.

[Rush Job]

Like the vast majority id keep both but if I had to go with one it would be Alonso, I just tend to think Masch is worth a bit more to us, in terms of what he already gives, what his worth is/could be and in what he could give in the future.
Wether its Rafa or Alonso I dont know but Xabi needs to give more trust to Mascherano, I see no reason why a player like Alonso cant pepper the 10 goal mark and chip in with a winner here and there.

[Rush Job]

It's an interesting question and not as straight forward as it at first seems. My guess is that pretty much everyone would instantly hit the "sell mash" option (particularly as there isn't an "others" which obviously I'd press and then think of one). It kind of comes back though to the thread of a while ago where the question was posed "what is Rafa thinking of" when considering selling Alonso.

Not for the first time, S@int is onto something I think with his talk of the difficulty of breaking down the bus parkers. Equally, we have to ask (as some people have) what's the point of Masherano? I personally think that the point of Masherano is that he is so good as a defensive midfielder that his partner is given license to basically feck off and do whatever he wants. Sit Masherano in front of a decent back four (and I think we need a better centre half TBH) and his partner is given the opportunity to "unleash hell". Does Xabi do it enough? Well it's arguable.

Clearly though, we have to create more from somewhere. My personal feeling is that against the bus parkers (little did Mourinho know his phrase would be enshrined into English football, just like his points record) clearly we need to do something. We could just say that our number of draws over the last TWO seasons is just bad luck, one of those things, down to the refs and the rest, or on the other hand we could be sensible. Now it's hard to imagine an improvement on Gerrard and Torres, so it's either the wide areas or in central midfield that something needs to happen.

My own preference would be to keep Alonso if humanly possible, as I think the sum of his parts is still significant. I think though to get round a massed defence you need to move the ball quickly. You need fluidity of movement, imagination, pace, instant control, vision. You need players who can beat a man, can see a pass. If you look at our front five (discounting Masherano as the sitter) there is one glaring weak link in the chain. Apologies to the Kuyt-hawks, but sometimes difficult decisions have to be made. Sometimes players have to be moved on at the absolute optimum of their value graph. If anyone needs to make way, for me it's Dirk.

Wait a minute is your answer Dirk Kuyt?

[Bad Bob]

The problem is even with "Alonso dictating the tempo," we are still failing to break teams down. Stoke 0-0 home and away, Fulham at home, West Ham at home etc etc.

We need someone who is more creative in the final third, and who can occasionally run with the ball creating space for other players, someone who creates actual chances. Its no point having the majority of the possession if you aren't creating enough chances to win games.

IMO it comes down to a choice of either improving our wide players (bringing in more threat and creativity) or improving through the middle ...... which has to be Alonso.

Alonso has shown his defensive limitations in the past as our record against top sides shows, and so if we need more creativity we cannot rely on Alonso and bring in a creative partner. Therefore I would argue that to improve our creativity in the final third we would have to partner Masch with a more creative partner than Alonso.

Obviously my preference would be to bring in a more creative player even further forward (Tevez/Silva)  Sadly I don't think that will be an option given our current financial situation. So if forced I would sell Alonso and bring in a very creative attacking midfielder. 

Alonso for me is the perfect player for counter attacking football, but unfortunately its against the "park the bus" boys that his limitations show.

In an ideal world we would sign a creative second striker and keep both, but Alonso for me is not a defensive midfielder, and so he would be my choice to go.

It's funny because, while I completely agree with you about needing to break down park-the-bussers I completely disagree with your assessment of where the greater liability lies in central midfield against those sides.  To me Mascherano is much more of a liability against the Stokes and Wigans of the league than Alonso is.  How does Masch's game contribute to breaking down the teams that come in search of a point?  He adds virtually nothing to the attacking side of the ledger and he's not particularly needed for defensive reinforcements because the teams we struggle with have very little ambition to get forward and attack.  If park-the-bussers are our main stumbling block--and they are--sacrificing Mascherano makes far more sense than sacrificing Alonso, IMO.

Now, on the matter of Alonso's 'defensive liabilities' I'm far from convinced that we can lay our past spotty record against top sides at his doorstep.  How exactly do we assess his share of those poor results anyway?  After all, he wasn't the only one on the pitch in those matches.  In any event it doesn't matter because we've already agreed that the real issue to be addressed is our play against the rest of the league.  Even if Alonso is not the ideal holding player against the Mancs or Chelsea, I still think he's more than up to minding the shop against the likes of Hull and Bolton.

So, like you, I'd say that in an ideal world we would sign a creative second striker and keep both. But, IMO, Mascherano is more surplus to requirements against the park-the-bussers and so he would be my choice to go if we really had no other choice but to cash in on one of these lads.**




(**With that said, I'll repeat what I've said elsewhere a few times now.  If we truly are as skint as reports suggest and it's a matter of selling one of our best players in order to finance a big transfer I'd prefer us to keep what we have and look to shop the bargain bins for someone like a Tuncay.  I think we proved during the last 2.5 months that we can play a more expansive brand of football with the personnel we have and I'd prefer to keep this team together and have another bash rather than cash in on a top player like Alonso or Masch in order to get another attacker in.  I know the silly season encourages a state of panic if you're not wheeling and dealing like your competitors but, if we can't afford to do so, let's stick with a formula that's proven pretty potent these last few months.)