Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

My own preference would be to keep Alonso if humanly possible, as I think the sum of his parts is still significant. I think though to get round a massed defence you need to move the ball quickly. You need fluidity of movement, imagination, pace, instant control, vision. You need players who can beat a man, can see a pass. If you look at our front five (discounting Masherano as the sitter) there is one glaring weak link in the chain. Apologies to the Kuyt-hawks, but sometimes difficult decisions have to be made. Sometimes players have to be moved on at the absolute optimum of their value graph. If anyone needs to make way, for me it's Dirk.

I would agree to a point, Mick.  The only caveat would be if Kuyt's in one of his rich veins of form and Riera, say, is not.  Dirk's goal-scoring record against teams that would fall into the park-the-busser category is actually quite good so it's not as though he's a complete liability against such teams when on form.  By and large, though, I would have to agree that he would be the one to make way if we're up against a particularly well-drilled unit and we need something special to unlock the door.

[account deleted by request]

The point is we have TRIED Alonso against the park the bus teams, and he has come up short (or at least the team have), so either we try a more attacking creative player alongside Alonso (in which case the top sides will eat us alive) or we try a MORE attacking creative player alongside Masch, gaining the added security that Masch brings against the top sides and the greater attacking creativity of his partner against the cr@p sides.

Also Alonso simply doesn't score or make enough goals for the creative role, we should be expecting (or at least we need) 8 to 10 goals a season off our creative midfielder.

My final point would be that imo Masch is simply a better player than Alonso and in a close decision I  would plump for the better player.


I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Reg]

I dont want to even think about this so I did a Null Vote.

[Rush Job]

I dont want to even think about this so I did a Null Vote.

Aye its a close one like,almost did the samething when i realised I could probably make just as good a case for either.

[Bad Bob]

The point is we have TRIED Alonso against the park the bus teams, and he has come up short (or at least the team have), so either we try a more attacking creative player alongside Alonso (in which case the top sides will eat us alive) or we try a MORE attacking creative player alongside Masch, gaining the added security that Masch brings against the top sides and the greater attacking creativity of his partner against the cr@p sides.

Also Alonso simply doesn't score or make enough goals for the creative role, we should be expecting (or at least we need) 8 to 10 goals a season off our creative midfielder.

My final point would be that imo Masch is simply a better player than Alonso and in a close decision I  would plump for the better player.


I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

You say we've tried Alonso against the park-the-bussers and come up short but was not Mascherano playing in many of those matches too?  Perhaps he's the greater liability in those situations?  It's strange to imply that Alonso's the problem when we fail to break these teams down when Mascherano offers patently less in attack than Alonso does.  If we're really serious about turning the draws against lesser sides into wins it would seem logical to withdraw Masch in favour of a more attacking player in those games.  And, since we play more cr@p sides than top sides every season it would stand to reason that Masch would be the more expendible asset--especially given the fact that, by your own admission, he'd be easier to replace in terms of his skillset. 

As for the 8-10 goals we should expect from our creative midfielder, is that taking into account Gerrard's free role?  It seems to me that, like our main rivals, we have a dominant striker in Torres (compare to Rooney and Anelka this season) and a free-scoring advanced midfielder/second striker in Gerrard (compare to Ronaldo and Lampard) that provide the bulk of our scoring.  Interestingly, also like our main rivals, our central midfield pair doesn't chip in with that many goals.  Indeed, the likes of Carrick, Fletcher, Essien and Ballack were hardly prolific scorers this year either.  Given this parity and since we managed to score more goals than both rivals and more points than Chelsea, I think it's a bit churlish to suggest that Xabi's not pulling his weight on the goal-scoring or goal-making front.

Anyway, it's a good debate, mate.  I know I won't change your mind and you're unlikely to change mine.  If push came to shove, I'd take Alonso over Masch all day long because, for me, Alonso is 'simply' the better player.  Obviously you see it differently, though, and that's cool.  I just hope neither of us get a chance to find out who's theory is right in real life.

[mistyred]

I recon get rid of Xabi, he looks like he's gonna grow old real quick

Seriously tho that's one i'll leave to the gaffer, null and void for me.

[Owzat]

For me Alonso doesn't create enough, while Masch does his job, so I voted to sell Alonso. (I also think when Masch is at the top of his game he is World class, sadly he has only shown this in a few games this season)

For the sake of a bit of discussion, I've highlighted this part of your post, mate, because I think you could look at it in a very different way.  Masch may do his job but it's a job that perhaps isn't that vital against all but a handful of teams.  Do we really need him against the likes of Sunderland at Anfield, for instance?  Whereas, with Alonso we have a player that dictates tempo from deep (i.e. the deep-lying playmaker) and who also does a solid job of shielding the back four when necessary--which should be sufficient against many teams in the league.  Plus, as you say, we could probably replace Masch more easily with a cheaper alternative for the 'big' games where a spoiler is needed so, from that perspective, keeping Alonso would make more sense too.  As for Xabi not creating enough, I guess that depends on what kind of expectations you have.  As a deep-lying playmaker he surely can't be expected to be playing 1-2s around the "D" most of the match.  I see his role as dictating tempo and providing the platform for our attacks--which he does very well (i.e. he does his job).  Since he's been, by everyone's admission, back to his best this season and since this has been a season that has seen as collect a record number of points and outscore everyone in the league, I'd say he does create enough.  Put another quality attacker in front of him to complement Gerrard, Torres and the likes of Kuyt, Benayoun and Riera when on form and we'll be in great shape IMO.

Some will argue Mascherano "releases" other players to do their jobs, some stand by the belief that we need to concede less goals not score more despite another stingy season of conceding less than 30 goals (maybe points to the Mascherano factor)

But as you say, do we need a DM against the weaker sides? Who is the mancs' most defensive midfielder? We shouldn't be looking to negate the threat of most sides who don't really carry much of one, we should be looking to cause them problems and for me Alonso is going to pose a side more problems than Mascherano with his passing, while is capable of defensive duties as much as Mascherano.

Mascherano played on four of our first 13 games this season, we won SEVEN games out of nine without him. It's a little harder to be sure of the impact of his absence based on the latter part of the season, he didn't miss many games except notably the 1-3 home defeat to Chelsea BUT we conceded two from a lack of marking at corners so I doubt Mascherano would have prevented those.

I think Mascherano would be easier to replace, if indeed we needed to. I'm sure Alonso could fill in for him in a more defensive role if needed. We coped without Mascherano for 2.5 seasons, here's an interesting set of stats that makes you wonder how "valuable" Mascherano is

Goals Conceded Under Rafa

04/05 : 56 goals in 60 games (0.93 goals/game)
05/06 : 44 goals in 62 games (0.71 goals/game)
06/07 : 52 goals in 58 games (0.90 goals/game)
07/08 : 50 goals in 59 games (0.85 goals/game)
08/09 : 46 goals in 55 games (0.84 goals/game)

In 04/05 it was what, Hamann and Alonso? In 05/06 and 06/07 it was Sissoko, then Mascherano arrived in 06/07 and played 2.5 seasons. The defence has been steady under Rafa, never more than a goal a game.

Mascherano's made 90 appearances for Liverpool :-

With Mascherano : 74 goals in 90 games (0.82 goals/app)
w/o and before : 174 goals in 204 games (0.85 goals/app)

Our goalscoring has improved in the last two seasons, that is probably down to Torres scoring 50 goals and Gerrard 45. Would Gerrard score 45 goals playing the same role, but without Mascherano behind him? Probably, maybe more depending who came in.

I read Juve wanted him for £20m, I'd negotiate that to push it up a bit, but certainly would much prefer to sell Mascherano than Alonso.

[account deleted by request]

The point is we have TRIED Alonso against the park the bus teams, and he has come up short (or at least the team have), so either we try a more attacking creative player alongside Alonso (in which case the top sides will eat us alive) or we try a MORE attacking creative player alongside Masch, gaining the added security that Masch brings against the top sides and the greater attacking creativity of his partner against the cr@p sides.

Also Alonso simply doesn't score or make enough goals for the creative role, we should be expecting (or at least we need) 8 to 10 goals a season off our creative midfielder.

My final point would be that imo Masch is simply a better player than Alonso and in a close decision I  would plump for the better player.


I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

You say we've tried Alonso against the park-the-bussers and come up short but was not Mascherano playing in many of those matches too?  Perhaps he's the greater liability in those situations?  It's strange to imply that Alonso's the problem when we fail to break these teams down when Mascherano offers patently less in attack than Alonso does.  d

I just picked this part of your post out, as I thought this part was a little strange. Its a bit like blaming the defence when we fail to score. Masch is there to break up the oppositions play, Alonso is the one supposed to be our creative deep lying playmaker. 

I am pretty sure that Carra offers less of a goal threat than Torres, but  if we fail to score its Torres I would be looking at NOT Carra.(Although in truth I would probably blame Kuyt as usual)

[Sabre]

It's funny because, while I completely agree with you about needing to break down park-the-bussers I completely disagree with your assessment of where the greater liability lies in central midfield against those sides.  To me Mascherano is much more of a liability against the Stokes and Wigans of the league than Alonso is.  How does Masch's game contribute to breaking down the teams that come in search of a point?  He adds virtually nothing to the attacking side of the ledger and he's not particularly needed for defensive reinforcements because the teams we struggle with have very little ambition to get forward and attack.

I pick this part of your post for byte economy reasons.

I disagree Mascherano adds virtually nothing to our attack.

I agree Alonso adds more than Mascherano to unlock deep defences: has a better long shot, is a better option for any kind of free kick, both direct shot, and a far away free kick, his orientation changes to find a wing are crucial against those sides.

Real Madrid is trying to do this team , in which Alonso would do the DLPM/Holding midfielder role to support an offensive midfield with the likes of Kaka and Silva. I think they too seek Alonso as their best option precisely because many afternoons in Santander and Osasuna they'll meet precisely that kind of opposition. Alonso is considered top class defensively to support a midfield that otherwise wouldn't be great in the ball recovery tasks, but it seems in England he's not apreciatted for that. A matter of tastes I guess.

I'd disagree even if no one of you have said so, that we should look at Mascherano or Alonso to explain our dissapointing draws. You can make an orientation change to find the left wing, but it's another matter what you do with the ball then and what decission you take. *cough, Babel, cough*, *cough, Kuyt,cough*,*cough,Torres injuries,cough*

[aCe']

Ok... good points for either side but everyone seems to be working under the assumption that we'll be finding a direct replacement for wither of the two incase theyr sold.... that wasnt the point but i cant understand where this comes from... If we sold Mascherano, i'd think a Gerrard-Alonso partnership in the middle of the park with us playing 2 upfront wouldnt be such a bad idea... the pair would certainly be more than good enough against the 'park the bus' sides and i'd think we'd look much better going forward than we do now... The other option incase Mascherano is sold is to go out and buy another midfield destroyer (someone like Mascherano or Sissoko) on the cheap and have him in there as backup, someone to use in the big games to stop opposition from playing and give us a better balance down the middle ( A Fletcher of our own )....

In both cases, we'd make a decent profit from selling Mascherano, we'd have a better chance of breaking the smaller sides, and it wouldnt be the end of the world by any stretch of the imagination...


Alonso is a different case though... first of all, he's harder to replace.... Not only are players who do his job hard to find, theyr also pretty expensive and highly demanded... the Likes of Pirlo, the spanish duo in Barce, Barry, Veron..etc
If we do end up selling Alonso, we'd either be playing Gerrard-Mascherano in the middle in a 4-4-2 or... yea...

[Bad Bob]

The point is we have TRIED Alonso against the park the bus teams, and he has come up short (or at least the team have), so either we try a more attacking creative player alongside Alonso (in which case the top sides will eat us alive) or we try a MORE attacking creative player alongside Masch, gaining the added security that Masch brings against the top sides and the greater attacking creativity of his partner against the cr@p sides.

Also Alonso simply doesn't score or make enough goals for the creative role, we should be expecting (or at least we need) 8 to 10 goals a season off our creative midfielder.

My final point would be that imo Masch is simply a better player than Alonso and in a close decision I  would plump for the better player.


I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

You say we've tried Alonso against the park-the-bussers and come up short but was not Mascherano playing in many of those matches too?  Perhaps he's the greater liability in those situations?  It's strange to imply that Alonso's the problem when we fail to break these teams down when Mascherano offers patently less in attack than Alonso does.  d

I just picked this part of your post out, as I thought this part was a little strange. Its a bit like blaming the defence when we fail to score. Masch is there to break up the oppositions play, Alonso is the one supposed to be our creative deep lying playmaker. 

I am pretty sure that Carra offers less of a goal threat than Torres, but  if we fail to score its Torres I would be looking at NOT Carra.(Although in truth I would probably blame Kuyt as usual)

My suggestion's straightforward: against the park-the-bussers we should withdraw Mascherano (as there's very little opposition play to break up) and replace him with a more creative attacker.  Alonso 'stays home' to shield the defense on the occasion of the odd opposition foray but, crucially, does the deep-lying playmaker thing--only this time, he's got one more attacker to work with.  Would that not increase our chances of breaking down the opposition?



(This might be a good time to insert a Dawsonesque caveat and repeat a couple of fundamental points.  The first is that I value Mascherano HIGHLY and would be gutted to lose him.  It's for the sake of discussion that I've responded to aCe's question but I hope we never reach a situation where we feel we have to sell either of these players to generate cash.  Second, and just as saliently, I think we PROVED during the last 3 months of the season that we can be an attacking force to be reckoned with while fielding both Masch and Alonso as our central midfielders.  We put many a team to the sword with those two in the engine room and we scored bucketloads of goals along the way.  All of this strongly suggests to me that neither Alonso nor Mascherano were the problem when it came to breaking down the park-the-bussers (making S@int and I's debate a bit of aside, in truth).  Rather, it came down to the form of the players ahead of them.  With Torres and Gerrard injured and recovering for key periods the burden fell to players like Kuyt, Riera, Benayoun and Babel to score the goals.  I don't think anyone would disagree, though, that these players were not really firing on all cylinders during the barren stretches of late Nov/early Dec and January.  The bottom line for me is that Masch's job is to break up play, Alonso's job is to load the bullets for the attackers and it's their job to pull the trigger.  Masch and Alonso more or less did their jobs during our barren spells but those ahead of them simply did not on a consistent basis.  That's why we're all hoping that we sign the likes of a Tevez or Silva this summer--someone who can slot into attack and help win us more games.)

[account deleted by request]

The point is we have TRIED Alonso against the park the bus teams, and he has come up short (or at least the team have), so either we try a more attacking creative player alongside Alonso (in which case the top sides will eat us alive) or we try a MORE attacking creative player alongside Masch, gaining the added security that Masch brings against the top sides and the greater attacking creativity of his partner against the cr@p sides.

Also Alonso simply doesn't score or make enough goals for the creative role, we should be expecting (or at least we need) 8 to 10 goals a season off our creative midfielder.

My final point would be that imo Masch is simply a better player than Alonso and in a close decision I  would plump for the better player.


I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

You say we've tried Alonso against the park-the-bussers and come up short but was not Mascherano playing in many of those matches too?  Perhaps he's the greater liability in those situations?  It's strange to imply that Alonso's the problem when we fail to break these teams down when Mascherano offers patently less in attack than Alonso does.  d

I just picked this part of your post out, as I thought this part was a little strange. Its a bit like blaming the defence when we fail to score. Masch is there to break up the oppositions play, Alonso is the one supposed to be our creative deep lying playmaker. 

I am pretty sure that Carra offers less of a goal threat than Torres, but  if we fail to score its Torres I would be looking at NOT Carra.(Although in truth I would probably blame Kuyt as usual)

My suggestion's straightforward: against the park-the-bussers we should withdraw Mascherano (as there's very little opposition play to break up) and replace him with a more creative attacker.  Alonso 'stays home' to shield the defense on the occasion of the odd opposition foray but, crucially, does the deep-lying playmaker thing--only this time, he's got one more attacker to work with.  Would that not increase our chances of breaking down the opposition?

More likely to find ourselves in the position we found ourselves in against Wigan (at home) when we were destined to lose the game but for a fortuitous sending off. We lost the early battle for midfield without Masch and never looked likely to recover it. Admittedly the player was sent off for fouling Alonso so I suppose he did contribute   

I agree with your Dawsonesque addendum as I would rather we kept both (especially now we have missed out on Barry)

[Bad Bob]

Admittedly the player was sent off for fouling Alonso so I suppose he did contribute   

[Lando_Griffin]

I think people are missing something. We play 2 holding midfielders - Xabi and Mascher. Their job isn't to be creative - Xabi just has that ability and uses it to great effect.

Gerrard, Kuyt and Riera are our attcking mids - not the other two.

[Owzat]

I am somewhat surprised it is only 13-11 in favour of Mascherano given the impression I've got off here that people don't want Alonso to go and didn't back when it was to make way for Barry. I think selling Alonso would be a far bigger backward step in our progress than selling Mascherano, we need to be more attacking as we were in the last dozen games of last season and selling our best passer of the ball seems far from the best way to sustain that style.