Liverpool FC Forum

[Kopite-Jud]

The worrying thing is.... 80% of the starting 11 have been here long enough  to "understand his philosophy"

So he can't use this transition excuse.  He's lost it... completely lost it.

[RedAnt]

Red ant - How can you say he doesn't give many young players a go mate? Having 19/20/21 year old players in his teams is commonplace, you wouldn't see that in Kenny or Rafa team, they'd opt for experience any day of the week.
And I said his default position is to attack, obviously ATM with strikers that can't hit a barn door and defenders that can't defend he's having to batten down the hatches and eek out results until Sturridge returns.

I'm not very knowledgable on our academy set up but I keep in touch with the reserves thread on the forum. For years now we've seen players with high potential but very seldom do we see them make the leap to the first team, so the players there either aren't good enough or are being overlooked. But surely moving one or two to the first team would have a positive effect. It would inspire other young players for one thing. But if I was a young academy player and BR was moaning about squad depth and fielding obsolete players, I'd be thinking of moving on. Both Rafa and Kenny gave young players a go didn't they?
But there's so much wrong. Most if not all has already been said so I'd just be writing repeats. I'm not sure any parts of the model fit the blueprint. We're so far off the mark it's incredible.
But for now I don't think we need look any further than team selection, planning and tactics to see how badly BR is doing.
The question is: if a new manager came in, could he get anything out of this squad? It's not a good squad and has very little depth, but surely it's capable of more than it's doing. We can't blame BR for the quality of individuals (though he signed them) but we can blame him for the lack if motivation, lack of team spirit and lack of any discernible tactics on the pitch.

[Kash_Mountain]

I think the club would be making a big error if they replaced Rodgers, yes he's going through a bad time atm but show me a great manager that hasn't gone through a rough patch. United fans even went as far as making banners imploring Ferguson to do one and Kendall took horrendous stick from the Goodison faithful but both managers turned things around to become the most successful managers in their respective clubs histories. Having a bad spell doesn't mean that you can't have a lot of success in the future.
Rodgers does have a lot of good managerial qualities, his philosophy is the right one, he likes to attack (that might not sound much but when you've sat through the Houllier and Hodgson era's and even to some extent the Benitez era having a manager who's default position is to have a go is a veritable God send), he gives young players a chance, he's good with the media (okay he can sound like a snake oil salesman at times but that's better than having someone constantly putting their foot in it and causing media shyte storms like Roy and even Kenny) and I think he buys into the history and traditions of the club.
I genuinely think he's been a bit unlucky in the sense that one or two events have conspired against him, firstly he did well to mould a potential title winning team from the wreckage of Kenny's regime but the star player who was the heart of the side wanted out, that meant that he would have to build an entirely new team (his second in the space of 2 seasons), then although he gets given money to spend he's not the only one spending it, then his main striker gets injured for half a season and on top of all that he's the manager who is in charge as Gerrards career winds down which was always going to be tricky for any manager to handle.
Add to all that normally reliable players having prolonged spells of poor form, players coming in who he didn't really want, new signings taking their time to find their feet, twitter storms and a fan base who once again think it's their god given right to win the title and the man has got a lot on his plate ATM, it's not a surprise that he struggling.
I believe he will turn it around though, if we stick with him I'm certain we will have another top side (that plays exciting football) at some point in the future.

His ‘philosophy’ btw is all things Spanish football. His utter love with the way Spanish football is played, or, in particular, how Barcelona ‘used’ to play (short and quick passing) is clouding everything, and he doesn’t know any other way.  He seems to think that is all there is to the game, when most people know there is much more to it than keeping possession.  LFC used to play a possession game way back in the 80s, we all know there is a lot more to it, but BR just doesn’t have the mental ability to look at it things clearly and analytically to get things sorted. He needs help desperately, but he is refusing the needed help such as defensive coaches etc.

If he  changes things, that is, high pressing game etc, you can be sure that he’ll revert things back to the way LFC are playing now such is his love of Spanish (Barcelona) football

I reckon there are issues within the dressing room, probably because a lot of players seem to be shafted by BR, he has favourites and plays them every game, when better options are available. Again, this is hurting the Club.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

I'm afraid yesterdays game was confirmation he's lost what little faith the supporters had in his ability to turn this around .
When we were leaving yesterday I heard fella's that have stood and sat in the Kop for 50 years man and boy ,and to listen
to these wise old sages who usually preach patience through learned lips, state "He needs to go now" is endorsement enough.

I've sat in front of these fella's for 30 plus  myself and you listen intently to fella's  that have watched Shankly's first tentative
steps ,and when they shuffle out of their respective seats with a wry smile and no words of encouragement for those they're
trying to convert then you realise the fat lady's had too much time on the stage.

[red till i die!!]

I think the club would be making a big error if they replaced Rodgers, yes he's going through a bad time atm but show me a great manager that hasn't gone through a rough patch. United fans even went as far as making banners imploring Ferguson to do one and Kendall took horrendous stick from the Goodison faithful but both managers turned things around to become the most successful managers in their respective clubs histories. Having a bad spell doesn't mean that you can't have a lot of success in the future.
Rodgers does have a lot of good managerial qualities, his philosophy is the right one, he likes to attack (that might not sound much but when you've sat through the Houllier and Hodgson era's and even to some extent the Benitez era having a manager who's default position is to have a go is a veritable God send), he gives young players a chance, he's good with the media (okay he can sound like a snake oil salesman at times but that's better than having someone constantly putting their foot in it and causing media shyte storms like Roy and even Kenny) and I think he buys into the history and traditions of the club.
I genuinely think he's been a bit unlucky in the sense that one or two events have conspired against him, firstly he did well to mould a potential title winning team from the wreckage of Kenny's regime but the star player who was the heart of the side wanted out, that meant that he would have to build an entirely new team (his second in the space of 2 seasons), then although he gets given money to spend he's not the only one spending it, then his main striker gets injured for half a season and on top of all that he's the manager who is in charge as Gerrards career winds down which was always going to be tricky for any manager to handle.
Add to all that normally reliable players having prolonged spells of poor form, players coming in who he didn't really want, new signings taking their time to find their feet, twitter storms and a fan base who once again think it's their god given right to win the title and the man has got a lot on his plate ATM, it's not a surprise that he struggling.
I believe he will turn it around though, if we stick with him I'm certain we will have another top side (that plays exciting football) at some point in the future.

Absolutely love your optimism yakka 
You know yourself he has restrictions on what he has to work with but that he also has said he has the final say on all those players. He is not going to put his head on the line with someone else pulling the strings.
You buy into a fantasy philosophy that he has failed to instill into players he has almost 3 years working with, I would understand if our line-ups included all his new signings from the summer but they aren't. About 3 are lucky enough to make it at any given time so that just makes his excuse of not having the time to get them used to the way he likes to work laughable. We are now in the europa league so he isn't going to find that time in the second half of the season either.
The 3 biggest problems we have are Brendan Rodgers, His arrogance and his Ego.

I know you are not one that wants to see managers binned willy nilly and neither do I but this lad has sold us down a river in the last 3 years and there is absolutely no guarantee he has learned anything from it or is even the better for the experience. He cant be trusted with the money to turn it around as he shown he doesn't know what to do with it. You posted a response to me in another thread showing an exciting team of youth that i agree looks exciting but what are the chances of ever seeing that 11 come through. How many players has rodgers even bought in that line-up ?
There is no guarantee he will turn this around at all, He looks to have lost some of the players he has and will probably dig another hole for himself if given money in january.

If fenway have any serious intentions of salvaging anything from this then they need to start sounding out a replacement in either De boer or Klinnsmann. Both far more experienced than rodgers and will work with youth etc. we can still have a good philosophy and style with a different manager.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

We can't keep changing managers every time we go through a bad spell, yes results and performances are disappointing ATM but we are only 6 points off the CL positions (with half a season still to go) and we are in the quarter finals of the league cup. I'm not saying it's great but is it honestly worthy of the sack?
6 months ago we nearly won the league, now some fans want the manager sacked, have they any idea how that will look in the history books?

[RedAnt]

When I was in school I played cricket and the first ever bowl I did I got the batsman out. My teacher thought I was great. I was lucky. Never did it again. I wish I hadn't done it because the teacher kept making me do it until he realised I was no good. Just got lucky. BR is getting far too much wrong. No way is he a complete manager. If he learned on the job, then yes, but he doesn't. He keeps on doing the same thing and then making out that it's the players fault. He's too young to be this arrogant. You expect it from Wenger and Whiskey Nose because they've paid their dues. They're old, influential men with lots of experience. BR is fully grown at a young age and that's why he's failing.

[Thommo's perm]

I believe he may have took his eye of the ball with his private life. When he first came here he was a podgy, serious man who wanted to focus on his philosophy and make the players understand his way of playing.
Since then he has left his wife and took up with a good looking slim blonde. He himself has lost weight and had his teeth done and I cant help feeling that this has been a distraction which has taken its toll. The media interest and the consequence of the family break up must have some effect.

[maguskwt]

We can't keep changing managers every time we go through a bad spell, yes results and performances are disappointing ATM but we are only 6 points off the CL positions (with half a season still to go) and we are in the quarter finals of the league cup. I'm not saying it's great but is it honestly worthy of the sack?
6 months ago we nearly won the league, now some fans want the manager sacked, have they any idea how that will look in the history books?

Totally agree. This season is a write off. The main goal now is to qualify for the CL. In the mean time, pls pls buy a striker in the Jan window.

[Kash_Mountain]

We can't keep changing managers every time we go through a bad spell, yes results and performances are disappointing ATM but we are only 6 points off the CL positions (with half a season still to go) and we are in the quarter finals of the league cup. I'm not saying it's great but is it honestly worthy of the sack?
6 months ago we nearly won the league, now some fans want the manager sacked, have they any idea how that will look in the history books?

Totally agree. This season is a write off. The main goal now is to qualify for the CL. In the mean time, pls pls buy a striker in the Jan window.

IT may be a write off, but the owners, having spent £200m+ over two years will not be happy. The fact that BR said, along the lines of, 'we'll come good in the second half' early in the season would have sounded alarm bells for the Owners.

BR made a number of promises for this season, one being about the CL and the other, EPL. CL is over, promise not delivered. EPL, hmmm, not at this rate unless he accepts help!!

Also, this is the first time that the winners of the UEFA/Europa Cup moves into the CL, however, those left in that competition look very good, and maybe even better then some teams in the CL right now. I wonder what BR has in store......

Inter
Napoli
Sevilla
Villarreal
Wolfsburg
Zenit

The following may drop to this competition:
Man City
Roma
Shalke

[Reg]

Liverpool's problems? Delusions of grandeur, transfer duds and failure to fix clear flaws in the squad

Those who want Brendan Rodgers out are deluding themselves if they think it will change anything under the current set-up, writes Chris Bascombe

Down and out: Liverpool crashed out of the Champions League last night, but the problems do not just lie at Brendan Rodgers' door Photo: EPA

10 Dec 2014
   
Only when it suits them, mind.

There is plenty of encouragement to drop Liverpool’s name alongside the grandees of Europe such as Real Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern Munich when discussing heritage, status, commercial potential and global support.

Judge what happened in these six group games in relation to those clubs, however, and there will be less inclination to embrace the comparison.

It is worth considering how board members at The Nou Camp, Bernabeu or Allianz Arena would be reacting this morning if their side had won a meagre five points from 18 from a Champions League group including the Swiss and Bulgarian champions.

Would Florentino Perez be privately briefing the Spanish media mouthpiece Marca that while it was deeply disappointing, it was important to retain a sense of perspective?

Would we be hearing Barcelona chief Josep Maria Bartomeu propose a persuasive argument that although his club spent £120 million on new players during the summer, it was inevitable they would need time to gel?

Would Franz Beckenbauer seek to console Bayern supporters by suggesting they need not worry about an injection of new blood in the January transfer window, because he retained the absolute faith that everyone was doing a marvellous job and it was such a shame one key player derailed everything by leaving in July?

In no particular order, here is the assorted list of official explanations for Liverpool’s turgid performances this season.

1. Luis Suarez left.

2. Daniel Sturridge is injured.

3. Liverpool did everything possible to sign Alexis Sanchez but he would not come.

4. There was no other striker available, so they had to buy Mario Balotelli.

5. No-one questioned the wisdom of signing the eight summer recruits at the time, every deal is risky, and there are not too many clubs in the Premier League who had a good summer in transfer market.

Whether you sympathise with these views or are appalled by a litany of excuses, what is most disturbing is the sense that as a club Liverpool do not believe they could have done much more; as if they have been undermined by a series of unfortunate events.

Aside from the fact there were plentiful warnings about the lack of a Suarez replacement, the notion all eight deals should have been questioned by fans (or journalists) who were otherwise engaged watching the Premier League last season is preposterous (and irrelevant).

The accountability for failing to fix the flaws in the squad that were evident for two years lies solely with those paid handsomely to remedy it – and at the risk of repetition that is not a one man job.

It would be reassuring to think there will be a sense of fury in the post-match debrief in the Anfield bunker that will strip the walls, but the impression given is those responsible are telling themselves circumstances made it unavoidable. If that is the case, it is even more disconcerting for Liverpool fans than the sight of Martin Skrtel employed as an emergency centre-forward – surely the most damning indictment of the wretched recruitment of the club.

Liverpool went into the game with Basel with a goalkeeper who doesn't know whether to kick the ball or exorcise it; centre-halves who you expect to be bullied by AFC Wimbledon next month; midfielders whose goals and assist record must be evident to the statistical wizards who are so revered by John W. Henry; and a 32-year-old striker who ran out of gas 72 hours before kick-off.

Liverpool appear to have lost the memo that makes it clear football is about players. You can offer countless speeches about strategy and appoint a manager with a philosophy that would make Plato blush, but if you buy pap you end up with last night.

That is why those who want Brendan Rodgers out as a result of Liverpool’s performances this season are deluding themselves if they think it will change anything under the current set-up.

Fenway Sports Group would interview another series of idealistic managers delivered fresh from the Uefa pro-licence course, each one no doubt adept at arranging training sessions and communicating his ideas. He’d still be at the mercy of the quality of Liverpool’s recruitment.

The Anfield transfer committee – or more specifically how they operate - is a familiar gripe on these pages and it is not used to absolve Rodgers, merely to point out he is partially rather than wholly responsible.

You have to look beyond him because it is a matter of public record he is one of many architects of this squad and not the traditional project manager. For what it is worth I firmly agree with the idea of a consensual approach to transfers in the same way I would endorse the principle of cabinet government. Rather like the current occupants of Downing Street, however, I also believe their appalling track record and failure to impose a successful policy means they should not have safe seats.

The Anfield committee was formed with good intentions; too many Liverpool deals since the 90s were filtered through the same agents; players often seemed to be preferred because of who they were represented by rather than whether they were good enough; managers assumed far too much power, made too many mistakes and spent too much time moaning about lack of resources when they’d been given plenty.

Rather than add checks and balances, however, Liverpool’s new approach has made what was already a miserable transfer track record since their last title even worse. Liverpool’s squad is not good enough and no amount of spin; no amount of dossiers detailing why those signed were the correct choices at the time; and no amount of blind faith mediocre players will come good with the right coaching will repair the damage of those chastening Champions League performances. In 540 minutes, Liverpool only looked like they might stay in the competition during the last 10.

FSG know what Real Madrid, Barcelona or Bayern Munich would do in these circumstances and the question is whether they are prepared to confront that reality or are deferring to those they have trusted to make the last 16 signings of which only two (possibly now reduced to one) have increased their value.

The grandees of Europe would hold those at fault accountable for a humiliating and demeaning failure.

When the effect of spending £120 million is the creation of a team so painful to watch every seat in Anfield's new Main Stand may need to be equipped with a sofa to hide behind, it is not tolerated. Not at big clubs. Not for those who expect permanent residency in the VIP tent.

[Kash_Mountain]

Btw, how is BR a good coach when he was sacked from every other job except Swansea. That team imo, was already made and set up for his style of playing the game, and yes he brought them to the EPL. On the back of this one successful job, he got the LFC role. He has tried and tried to turn the team into playing the game with the ‘philosophy’ he has in mind and it hasn’t work big time.   Last season, he changed the way LFC played for a short while from the advice and inspiration he drew from Bielsa. It worked cause LFC were playing exceptional football, however, he didn’t win anything come the end of the season. However, if he continued with this and made very small tweaks in a few places, and adjusted the play for each team, i'm sure LFC would be in a better place right now. BR in all his wisdom reverts back to his ‘philosophy’ style whilst spending all the millions of pounds unnecessarily on buying players who don't even fit into his ‘philosophy’ style of playing and added them to the squad.

When Shankly came to LFC, it was because major changes really had to happen. If all fans continued to support failure then, would LFC have won all the trophies back then? I don’t think so.  Same thing needs to happen now.

Anyway, why oh why if BR is that good, and being into his 3rd season at LFC, has he still not managed to train and  coach the team, the players into playing his ‘philosophy’ style?

I really think that this was his biggest opportunity to prove himself at a big Club, but the way things are going, it’s hard to see it happening for BR.

I beleive FSG will go back to their original plans, that is, get the DoF in first, then the Head Coach.

[ConnO'var]

We can't keep changing managers every time we go through a bad spell, yes results and performances are disappointing ATM but we are only 6 points off the CL positions (with half a season still to go) and we are in the quarter finals of the league cup. I'm not saying it's great but is it honestly worthy of the sack?
6 months ago we nearly won the league, now some fans want the manager sacked, have they any idea how that will look in the history books?

In many ways I agree with you... We should have never sacked Kenny. Roy deserved it as did Souness and Rafa.
But mate, this does not appear to be a "bad spell" to me... we have been woeful since the start of the season.
Frankly, with Rodgers at the helm, I am struggling to see how we are going to turn it around.... It would appear that we are hanging all our hopes on Sturridge coming back and praying that he will hit the ground running.... a hope that is far too unrealistic. It is also a sad indictment that we appear to need a 33 year old free transfer defender to lead our defence to lend some measure of stability. I know a lot of guys on here put our defensive improvements in recent times down to Lucas but i feel that is incorrect.... Kolo provided the leadership at the back that stabilized the ship. So where does that leave us?

In my book, Rodgers is tinkering around too much and trying to be too clever and playing people out of position, leaving us bereft of any appreciable structure and stability and most importantly, it seems to be affecting the confidence of the team as a whole. If this carries on, he will lose the dressing room. And there will be no coming from that. if you asked me now, I would take Tony Pulis over him anytime right now. We are tactically inept and personnel wise, our re-inforcements have been a joke as as good as some of the new guys are, we are deploying them counter productive to their strengths. I have always said that we either buy players to suit our system or suit our system to take advantage of our players' strengths. Right now we are doing neither and a club with our history and stature, who have spend huge amounts of money are getting outplayed by mid table and bottom table teams. There are always one off results and I can accept that as that is just life. But the law of averages dictate that these instances are one-offs and not the norm. When it does become the norm, then we really are in trouble.

Right now, we are.

6 points from the champions league spots? Very true.
But the flip side of the coin is that we are 8 points above the relegation spots.
That is a truer picture of the reality of the situation.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

We've already had 4 managers in less than 5 years (Benitez, Hodgson, Kenny and Brendan) do people seriously want to make that 5 in 5? I mean honestly, It's getting beyond a joke now, as soon as we hit any sort of bad patch everyone starts calling for the managers head again.
Every one of those managers I've mentioned had fans screaming for them to be sacked, Benitez won us our first European cup in two decades and took us to another final, he was pipped at the post to the title by a United side with a front line of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez (a United side we beat home and away btw including a 4-1 drubbing at Old Trafford), he even alerted the fans that the club had been taken over by a pair of carpetbaggers and in doing so probably saved the very existence of the club but what was the response from the fans? - sack the ****!
Kenny Dalglish is half a step behind Shanks as the greatest figure in this clubs history, after winning everything as a player he took over the managers job in the wake of Heysel when no one else would touch the managers job here with a barge pole, we were the pariahs of not just football but international sport. He got us accepted back into the sporting fold by producing a team that even our rivals admired and when Hillsborough happened that man was like a rock, as Liverpool manager he felt it was his duty to go to everyone of those 96 funerals. After Hodgson is sacked he returns as an interim manager, gets us to 2 cup finals, wins our first trophy in 6 years and what do the fans say? - sack the ****!
Brendan Rodgers takes us over and after an initial sticky spell he puts together one of the most entertaining sides in our history, we miss out on our first title in a quarter of a century by a hairs breath but we qualify for the CL for the first time in half a decade. The following season he hits a rough patch and what say our fans? - sack the ****
I don't know what's happened to our fan base I really don't, we used to be famous the world over for our loyalty but we've somehow morphed en masse into those two moaning c**ts from the muppets that just sit on the sidelines and bitch and moan.

[RedAnt]

How long before you realise that this is as good as it gets for BR? Some of us didn't think he was the right man for the job in the first place but we got behind him anyway. That's loyalty, not to Brendan, but to LFC. We can't stick with him just for loyalties sake when it's increasingly clear he's not up to the job. That would be insanity. This is top flight football with £millions at stake. As I've said, if the guy was learning then great, let's be patient. But he isn't. He's making the same mistakes. Really, how long would you let this go on for? Five years? Imagine the damage that could be done in that time if we continue this way. There's loyalty and then there's loyalty. Just remember, it's the club we support, not one man.