Liverpool FC Forum

[Kopjon8]

Completely agree with ycsatbjywtbiastkamb. 

When BR had the right tools we saw what he can do.  Chelsea will do well to finish the season with just 3 or 4 more points than we finished with last season and wont come close to the amount of goals we scored.  How can Chelsea have that much quality but fail to achieve what BR achieved.  Does that mean Jose is a poor manager or does BR deserve a bit of credit (look it up in the dictionary as you don't often seen that word used very often on here).

Sack the recruitment team and tell the owners to get their heads in gear - we need to start polishing off some of these attempts to sign QUALITY players and stop losing out to Chelsea, Arsenal or Spurs - that's down to FSG, not BR.  FSG WONT sign big name players who command big wages.

[Penguins]

I'm with Yakka and Ace on this one.
Where is the quality in the squad that gets us top 4 compared to the other 4 sides?
I'm tired of All the glory poured on Mourinho, a manger who has had one of the most expensive squad assembled ever since he left Porto over 10 years ago.
So fantastic of him to win when he can spend the highest wages and fees on players....   

Overall during his tenure I think BR has done ok. But it seems any LFC manager coming in has to perform miracles or should be shown the door.
If this goes on we will change managers every 2-3 years.

We can whine all we want about the acquisitions being poor, cause mostly the have been.
But when you look at the average age, wage and timing of the transfers something tells me everything isn't down to BR
if we sign them or not.

[supersub]

heads in sand......

[aCe']

I think FSG are smart and I dont think they'd be daft enough to go after another inexperienced manager if they let Rodgers go.

The point is, Rodgers for me had an average first season (you'd give any manager that). He had a brilliant second season (regardless of the reasons; he managed what he had and did brilliantly). And he had a terrible 3rd season where we'll likely finish 5th after getting to 2 cup semi finals and being embarrassed in Europe (finishing 5th and 2 cup semis is about the level of the current squad).

On paper, it doesnt look a terrible record. Dissected a bit further though, the problems start to show.

If I had the time to do a more in depth analysis I would. I dont however, so I'll just put my ratings.Make of them what you will


Coaching:
The thing I'm looking at here is the state of the squad during his time here. Has Rodgers built a strong enough squad during his time?
         
Player development:  (5/10 - 7 overall)

Man management: (3/10 - 5 overall)
--------------------------------------------------------
Coaching = 4/10 this season (6 Overall)
---------------------------------------------------------
Tactics:
Formation, whether the side has an identity, his flexibility, and utilization of players

Formation: (3/10 - 5 overall)

Playing Style: (3/10 - 7 overall)

Big game Awareness: (2/10 - 3 overall)

Utilization of players: (4/10 - 7 overall)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Tactics = 3/10 this season (5 Overall)
-----------------------------------------------------------

Transfers:
Players brought in, players sold, how well the money was spent, players sold at value

Transfers in : (1/10 - 2 overall)

Transfers out: (2/10 - 3 overall)

-----------------------------------------------------------
Transfers= 1.5/10 this season (2.5 Overall)
-----------------------------------------------------------

Other Areas:
Media handling, Relationship with fans, 

Media Handling : (3/10 - 4 overall)

Fan Confidence: (3/10 - 6 overall)

-----------------------------------------------------------
Others = 3/10 this season (5 Overall)
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Boocity]

I cannot see any defence for him right now, we can look good against teams in poor form or free fall like Newcastle but any time we come across a tactically aware manager or a team ready to have a go he just doesn't have the answers, looked totally forlorn like a little boy lost at the side of the pitch yesterday. I can't see him getting another Suarez or anyone of that calibre so I don't see him replicating last season.

[Boocity]

Surely.....its time now. Rodgers is not the manager to bring us back to the top of the football world. I hope the owners do the right thing come end of season. Bring in experienced managers who know how to win trophies (not a coach who can only coach a bunch of youngsters).

Its Rafa or Klopp.

Sack Rodgers? For what?
Let's have a look at his record here

Season 1 - takes over a club that has finished between 6th-8th the previous five years, starts very poorly but brings in Sturridge and Coutinho in the January and we go on a great run, at the same time playing some of the best football seen at the club in 20 years (6-0 away at Newcastle, 3-1 away at Fulham etc).

Season 2 - goes closer to the title than any LIverpool manager in the last quarter of a century, recieve plaudits from across the footballing world for our style of play, we do some absolute demolition jobs on our rivals (Arsenal (h), Spurs (a), Everton (h), United (a) etc) qualify for the CL.

Season 3 - lose our strike force from last year to Barcelona and injury, terrible start in the league and go out of the CL. Rally halfway through the season and go on a great run but falls apart at the end. Reach the semi's in both the domestic cup competitions.

If you sack managers for that you'll be sacking them every five minutes.

Yakka, yes he had a great season last year but I remember I think it was Burley at Ipswitch having a good season and getting manager of the season in the year we won 3 cups, (really p1ssed Houlier off who should have won it) I seem to remember they faded away after that season and Burley got the sack, I think he was hailed as the future of British management at the time.

[Penguins]

heads in sand......

Ok, so here are the world class players getting us into the top 4??

GK Mignolet, Jones: not really over a full season

Johnson, Manquillo, Flanagan :Are you kidding me?

Skrtel, Sakho, Toure, Lovren: Nah, not getting there

Moreno, Enrique: Eh, a big fat no

Allen, Markovic, Lallana: hahaha

Lucas, Henderson: Extremly doubtful

Sterling, Coutinho: Sure, why not

Balotelli, Sturridge, Lambert, Borino: Maybe top 10...

So, were is that quality that is going to compete with Manure, Chelski, ***** and City?
Cause I don't see any.
And there is no chance the current owners will finance any deal for players demanding 100000+ wages.
So as usual expensive youth with cheap wages that might flop...

[RedAnt]

Personally I find it difficult to believe Brendan has little to nothing to do with our signings. If BR wouldn't work with a DoF, then why would he work with a transfer committee? And say this was the case, then how is a committee more acceptable than working with a DoF? Wouldn't Brendan then be under pressure from the board to utilise the resources that had been chosen for him by the powers that be, and also in a way that gets the best out of them? And then what exactly would Brendan's role be? Certainly not manager!
I suspect BR has had much more say in squad personnel than he'd have many believe. Players like Balotelli have offered very little and I think it's justified to have expected a good coach to get better out of them regardless of how they arrived at the club.

[Penguins]

But it seems obvious that he is prohibited to splash the cash on top class players.
There is no way a 30 million+ signing with 100000+ wages will walk into this club anytime soon.
Always trying to find bargains/hopefuls(like Balotelli) that might come good.

You know what?
They might come bad too....

With Gerrard and Johnson gone in the summer the highest earners of the club will be gone. And no, we won't splash that wage Gerrard is currently earning
on a new player. Not how the owners operate.

[devaney]

Yakka I have defended BR and supported him more than most but after yesterday's pitiful performance I begin to question my own sanity. Our performance yesterday was one of the worst and badly managed I have witnessed in a very long time and Roger's need to ask himself some very serious questions. Fans spent a disproportionate amount of their hard earned income to support a team that didn't even look interested?

As for item 2 in your list of BR achievements I agree that he should be given credit for our runners up position in the league. But it shouldn't be ignored that he fkd up against Chelsea and the mighty Crystal Palace when it really mattered. Would it therefore be unkind to say that he eventually lost us the league?

And as for item 3 you rightly point out that he got us to two semi finals but given our performances in both of them I really wouldn't I really don't regard that as a major success. Lets face it we struggled to get past Blackburn in the quarters of the league cup.

Penguins and I don't always agree with what he says listed the players and asked the question which of them could get us into the top four. I hate to admit it but I don't altogether disagree with his ratings.

THERE IS A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK TO BE DONE. That became very obvious recently when we played United and Arsenal. We also looked poor against Blackburn especially in the first half and the less said about yesterday the better.

[RedAnt]

heads in sand......

Ok, so here are the world class players getting us into the top 4??

GK Mignolet, Jones: not really over a full season

Johnson, Manquillo, Flanagan :Are you kidding me?

Skrtel, Sakho, Toure, Lovren: Nah, not getting there

Moreno, Enrique: Eh, a big fat no

Allen, Markovic, Lallana: hahaha

Lucas, Henderson: Extremly doubtful

Sterling, Coutinho: Sure, why not

Balotelli, Sturridge, Lambert, Borino: Maybe top 10...

So, were is that quality that is going to compete with Manure, Chelski, ***** and City?
Cause I don't see any.
And there is no chance the current owners will finance any deal for players demanding 100000+ wages.
So as usual expensive youth with cheap wages that might flop...

I don't think this is an indication of the owners spending and philosophy on financial structuring. It will play a part, yes, but I think it's more an indication of BRs ability to attract top players. If young, star players which fit the squad, (eg Sanchez) were available then the owners might stump up the cash, but they don't want to come. Why? Our reputation and tradition/history are top notch. If Maureen was our manager I'm sure he'd attract the likes of Fabregas. Wenger has appeal. He got Sanchez. When players are asked by the press why they chose Arsenal over Liverpool they might give one or two answers, such as "I want to live in London", you can guarantee it's not the only reason.

[Doeboy]

Rodgers isn't a bad manager. We've played some breathtaking stuff under him, especially last season. However. my gut feeling has always been this job came too soon for him.  Asking a young manager to step up after only 2 years at Swansea (and a sacking at Reading before that after 6 months) and only one of those in the premier league, into one of the most high profile and coveted jobs in world football is a massive ask. He was obviously going to make mistakes and have to learn on the job because he doesn't have the experience at the highest level and that is not his fault. He has showed both good moments and bad moments. Also his hands are tied in that we can't go out there and compete for the top players (even with CL football) anymore so have to go for potential and obviously that is much more riskier. Realistically I don't think FSG's pockets are deep enough to match the current top four but that is another argument

I do think we need a guy that is experienced and is able to deal with the expectations that come with working at a big club. Someone who can attract players and has an eye in the market. This is not having a go at Rodgers as I'm sure once he has a good amount of experience at the highest level, he will turn out to be an excellent manager but we are not a club who can afford to wait for that time to come and risk falling even further behind the leading pack. We are not a Spurs or an Everton, where getting 4th is like winning the league for them, and need to be right among the current top four.

[Dundreamin is back]

most high profile and coveted jobs in world football is a massive ask.

Doeboy you put the above sentence in your last post. High profile, maybe. Coveted jobs in world football. DEFINITELY NO. I cannot see the queue of the most successful managers in world football at present knocking down the doors at Anfield. As much as I hate to say it when the Mange realised that Moyes was out of his depth they got rid pronto. Replaced him with LVG who in his first few months in charge, I laughed at the clown they had appointed 10 month's on am not laughing anymore

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Yakka I have defended BR and supported him more than most but after yesterday's pitiful performance I begin to question my own sanity. Our performance yesterday was one of the worst and badly managed I have witnessed in a very long time and Roger's need to ask himself some very serious questions. Fans spent a disproportionate amount of their hard earned income to support a team that didn't even look interested?

As for item 2 in your list of BR achievements I agree that he should be given credit for our runners up position in the league. But it shouldn't be ignored that he fkd up against Chelsea and the mighty Crystal Palace when it really mattered. Would it therefore be unkind to say that he eventually lost us the league?

And as for item 3 you rightly point out that he got us to two semi finals but given our performances in both of them I really wouldn't I really don't regard that as a major success. Lets face it we struggled to get past Blackburn in the quarters of the league cup.

Penguins and I don't always agree with what he says listed the players and asked the question which of them could get us into the top four. I hate to admit it but I don't altogether disagree with his ratings.

THERE IS A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK TO BE DONE. That became very obvious recently when we played United and Arsenal. We also looked poor against Blackburn especially in the first half and the less said about yesterday the better.

No one is saying yesterday's performance was acceptable mate, all I am saying is that changing our manager every 5 minutes won't achieve much, if we do bring someone new in I can pretty much guarantee that in 2 or 3 seasons we'll be back at square one again with everyone screaming for the new man's head.
Like it or not the plain facts are that there are 4 clubs in this division with more resources and bigger wage bills than us. It's unrealistic to expect Brendan or any other manager for that matter to finish above one or all of those clubs every season. That is just not going to happen when they are shopping at Harrods and we are shopping down Breck Road.
He did it last year when he was given the tools to do the job (i.e a class player in his prime) but this year he didn't. That's life when your not one of the big spenders I'm afraid.
Brendan like all managers will have good seasons and poor seasons, this isn't a video game like FIFA, success doesn't come in a smooth upward curve.
I think Brendan given the right tools has the ability to win the league, I think that is in his skill set, I am not saying it is going to happen next season or anytime soon but I think if this club gets itself sorted off the field and gives our manager something resembling a level playing field I think he can hold his own against the likes of Mourinho, LVG and Wenger, which is something I couldn't say about Hodgson or even this version of Kenny.

[aCe']

Yakka I have defended BR and supported him more than most but after yesterday's pitiful performance I begin to question my own sanity. Our performance yesterday was one of the worst and badly managed I have witnessed in a very long time and Roger's need to ask himself some very serious questions. Fans spent a disproportionate amount of their hard earned income to support a team that didn't even look interested?

As for item 2 in your list of BR achievements I agree that he should be given credit for our runners up position in the league. But it shouldn't be ignored that he fkd up against Chelsea and the mighty Crystal Palace when it really mattered. Would it therefore be unkind to say that he eventually lost us the league?

And as for item 3 you rightly point out that he got us to two semi finals but given our performances in both of them I really wouldn't I really don't regard that as a major success. Lets face it we struggled to get past Blackburn in the quarters of the league cup.

Penguins and I don't always agree with what he says listed the players and asked the question which of them could get us into the top four. I hate to admit it but I don't altogether disagree with his ratings.

THERE IS A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WORK TO BE DONE. That became very obvious recently when we played United and Arsenal. We also looked poor against Blackburn especially in the first half and the less said about yesterday the better.

No one is saying yesterday's performance was acceptable mate, all I am saying is that changing our manager every 5 minutes won't achieve much, if we do bring someone new in I can pretty much guarantee that in 2 or 3 seasons we'll be back at square one again with everyone screaming for the new man's head.
Like it or not the plain facts are that there are 4 clubs in this division with more resources and bigger wage bills than us. It's unrealistic to expect Brendan or any other manager for that matter to finish above one or all of those clubs every season. That is just not going to happen when they are shopping at Harrods and we are shopping down Breck Road.
He did it last year when he was given the tools to do the job (i.e a class player in his prime) but this year he didn't. That's life when your not one of the big spenders I'm afraid.
Brendan like all managers will have good seasons and poor seasons, this isn't a video game like FIFA, success doesn't come in a smooth upward curve.
I think Brendan given the right tools has the ability to win the league, I think that is in his skill set, I am not saying it is going to happen next season or anytime soon but I think if this club gets itself sorted off the field and gives our manager something resembling a level playing field I think he can hold his own against the likes of Mourinho, LVG and Wenger, which is something I couldn't say about Hodgson or even this version of Kenny.

I'm not going to get drawn into the whole sack Rodgers drama because I'm still not sure it would be the right decision. A while back I suggested that the ideal situation would be for us to loan Rodgers to Tottenham for 2 years and then bring him back. I think he's 2 years away from being a very good manager for this club.
Back to reality. The situation we find ourselves in is a really tough one for the owners. On the one hand, you have a young and highly rated manager who came close to winning you the league a season ago while getting the side to 2 semis in the next campaign and finishing behind 4 better sides. On the other hand, the same manager is to blame for the fact that 4 sides are better than his, when he had a great opportunity to build on a highly successful campaign the previous season.

Now ill get to your points:

No one is saying yesterday's performance was acceptable mate, all I am saying is that changing our manager every 5 minutes won't achieve much, if we do bring someone new in I can pretty much guarantee that in 2 or 3 seasons we'll be back at square one again with everyone screaming for the new man's head.

The idea of managers sticking around at clubs for long is becoming a bit outdated in this day and age. To be perfectly honest, if Brendan had a formation or style of play that he persisted with and the only problem was developing/bringing in the players to make that system work, your stance would make much more sense. As it is, we play 2 or 3 different different formations in the space of 90mins and I'm still not sure if we are a better possession or counter attacking side.

3 seasons in, I find myself satisfied with what Rodgers has done at the club. I also dont like the constant changing of managers, although I completely disagree with the notion that changing managers somehow leads to clubs underachieving or taking steps in the wrong direction; See Chelsea, City, Swansea, Southampton, R.Madrid, Barcelona, etc. for examples. 

Like it or not the plain facts are that there are 4 clubs in this division with more resources and bigger wage bills than us. It's unrealistic to expect Brendan or any other manager for that matter to finish above one or all of those clubs every season. That is just not going to happen when they are shopping at Harrods and we are shopping down Breck Road.

Thats a misconception. The only side that spent more than we did this season is ManUtd. Look at what we got for the 120mill we spent. Now compare that to:

Arsenal: 95 mill spent - Brought in: Ospina, Paulista, Chambers, Debuchy, Welbeck, Sanchez
Chelsea: 118 mill spent - Brought in: Filipe Luis, Cuadrado, Fabregas, Remy, Costa, Drogba
Man Utd: 145mill spent - Brought in: Valdes, Rojo, Shaw, Blind, Herrera, Di Maria, Falcao (loan)
Man City: 87 mill spent - Brought in:  Mangala, Sagna, Fernando, Bony

Chelsea and City obviously have the finances to go out and spend big whenever they feel like it and they have done so in the past few year. But I'm not sure you can say that both Utd and Arsenal have as well. Over the past 5 years, we've spent more than both. You look at the wage bills, and we're not as far behind as some would have you believe. The same 35 mill difference between our wage bill and Chelsea's is the difference betweeen Chelsea's bill and Man Utd's.

The main issue I see is HOW we spend rather than HOW MUCH. Rodgers gets the blame for that.

He did it last year when he was given the tools to do the job (i.e a class player in his prime) but this year he didn't. That's life when your not one of the big spenders I'm afraid.

Brendan IS the tool. His job is to go out and find the best talent to build a competitive side. He needs the cash and as far as I'm aware he consistently had it available and failed to use it properly.

Brendan like all managers will have good seasons and poor seasons, this isn't a video game like FIFA, success doesn't come in a smooth upward curve.

Agreed.

I think Brendan given the right tools has the ability to win the league, I think that is in his skill set, I am not saying it is going to happen next season or anytime soon but I think if this club gets itself sorted off the field and gives our manager something resembling a level playing field I think he can hold his own against the likes of Mourinho, LVG and Wenger, which is something I couldn't say about Hodgson or even this version of Kenny.

He has proven that he can mount a serious challenge, but he's also proven that he doesnt yet have what it takes to win it when all was set for him to do so. To a large extent I'll agree with him having the skill set, but will we/he have another Suarez helping his cause in the future. Again you mention tools, and I can only assume you mean a better playing squad, but isnt it Rodgers who needs to go out and buy quality instead of gambling all the money he gets on prospects and mid table players he seems to think he can turn world class.