Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Boring? I don't mean Rafa's Liverpool or the forum or anything. I mean the whole football season sofar. It just hasn't got going yet for me.
Maybe it's the cricket taking care of everybody's emotions into the start of the new season (and being from Yorkshire I love my leather on willow and warm beer as much as the next man). Maybe it's the national team, bereft of imagination and passion, stumbling to defeat against a desperately poor Northern Irish team. Maybe it's Chelsea, the current best team in the country unable to come close to filling up their ground despite their position in one of the biggest population centres in the World. Due in no small part I think to their "professionalism" and happiness to rely on counter-attacking football even at home. Maybe it's the fact that I watched Bolton draw 0-0 with Blackburn on the telly the other night and was filled with despair over what has come to be passed as entertainment.
It could be of course that maybe it's just me and that all is OK. Perhaps we are being treated to a football feast every week and I'm just too grumpy to see it.
Hopefully this weekend will see a classic Liverpool/Man Utd encounter. Hopefully there will be goals, controversy, talking points and a passion to fuel the fires of the oncoming Autumnal chill. I hope so because football needs it in my view.

[BringBackTiti]

I see what you mean, but I think once Sunday's game kicks off it wont be boring no more. Cant wait for it !!!

[Ciggy]

Your right Mick it has been boring, I think the dust has now started to settle from us being on cloud nine winning the Champions League, it was so emotional for most of us I felt on top of the world it was amazing.
I dont feel to happy now and I was really depressed with the transfer window malarcy, we are missing something cant put my finger on it, maybe expectations where to high after the CL win, maybe its cause Chelsea have bought the league again already.
I had a cob on after the Betis game because the players put so much pressure on Carra and sammi and I hate seeing that, but of course we won and you are not aloud to complain about it.
On sunday we will see there abouts how we are going to fair in the league, a win is a must we can beat anyone and everyone on our day and  will expect nothing less than a win.
f we didnt draw against Boro and Spurs then you can say lets go for a draw against the mancs, but not now you cant 4 points dropped through them 2 games, this one is a must. We win this I expect that we come 2nd or 3rd in the league this season.

[bigmick]

I did read your comments on the Betis game Lynds. For sure all is not perfect but I actually thought that for the first 20 minutes or so, that was the best I have seen the team play under Rafa.
Your frustration at some on here is justified and you are spot-on when you speak about not being allowed to voice a negative opinion. "Support the team, be a true suppoter" is as plain daft a sentiment on a discussion forum as "give him time, remember Pires" etc etc.
The forum, like the team and the season hasn't really got started yet either. Most of the heavywieghts are either keeping their own council, have got bored with the whole thing are have been banned. I must confess that despite myself I miss the contributions of a fired up Stu, berating all in his path in his love for GH. It must surely be one of the injustices of all time that blokes such as him (notwithstanding the fact that he is admittedly a complete numpty on occasions, and I know he's probably reading this        ) should be barred whereas other more deserving cases keep cropping back up like a boil on your todger.
I'm sure though that all will come good in the end. Football will enchant us, thrill us and dismay us in equal measure. After all, Istanbul wouldn't have been as sweet without all the bad times.

[LiverpoolMadman]

He's just come back from the Planet MARS .... can't blame him ...

[Chelsea forever.]

WARNING - THIS IS A LONG READ AND WILL TAKE TIME - ONLY FOR THOSE INTERESTED IN FOOTBALL

"He may look like an idiot and talk like an idiot but don't let that fool you. He really is an idiot" - Groucho Marx.

Football fans are idiots. Or, to rephrase that sentence using less incendiary language: when it comes to football, intelligent people act stupid. And yes, that probably includes you.

After all, you remain hooked on a sport that has, over the past decade, become as competitive as a F1 warm-up lap - while at the same time taking ever-larger chunks out of your salary. Smart people would stand up to such exploitation. Football fans prefer to revel in their "hardcore" commitment.

Even if a match is shunted to some unholy hour to accommodate Sky, you think nothing of travelling hundreds of miles to sit in a stadium with all the atmosphere of a wake, to show loyalty to your club. The same club that's always thinking of ingenious new ways to bleed you dry.
When it comes to football, your rationality goes awol. You worship players who are at best indifferent to you, and at worst despise you. If a referee makes a dubious decision against your team, he's a or a cheat. And if a journalist writes something you disagree with, he carries a vendetta.

Your idiocy doesn't end there. For you take more interest in pre-season friendlies - games which are, without exception, about as meaningful as Gazza's comedy breasts - than the growing inequality between football's haves and have-nots and what to do about it.

In short, you're an idiot.

A prediction...

Here's what will happen in the Premiership this season: Chelsea, or Arsenal or Manchester United, will win the title. Liverpool will come fourth. One of the 10 or 11 teams who graze in mid-table will surprise us, but the rest won't. And at least one newly-promoted side will go straight back down. Surprised? Appalled? Or just thinking: 'Yeah, and?'

If it's the latter, you perhaps reckon football has always been this predictable ("Didn't Liverpool win everything in the 80s?"), but the facts don't back that up.

Everyone remembers that Manchester United pick-pocketed the first Premiership title in 1992-93 - what seems amazing now is that Aston Villa finished second, Norwich third, Blackburn fourth and QPR fifth. And that's not a skewed example - between 1985-95, 13 different clubs finished in the top three, exactly the same number as in the previous decade (and the decade before that).

In the last 10 years, that figure was just six [Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Newcastle and Leeds]. And with Champions League money and Roman Abramovich's hard-earned roubles swishing around, the gap between the rich and the rest is widening by the season. It used to be that if you lost less than seven games you'd win the league - but since Boxing Day 2002, when Manchester United lost to Middlesbrough, the eventual Premiership winners have lost just one league game between them (Chelsea's 1-0 defeat at Manchester City) in 95 matches.

But here's the rub: despite being as predictable as a Jo Brand fat-gag, the Premiership is as popular as ever. Why? No really, why?

Another season, another price rise...

Oil prices and company directors' pay-rises apart, few things in life are consistently more inflation-busting than season ticket price-hikes. But each May, most fans' response is thuddingly predictable: a moan, a brief moment of contemplation, and then a question - do you take Visa or MasterCard?

Arsenal might just be able to justify charging £1,825, the most expensive season ticket in the Premiership, by citing market forces - but how can Millwall get away with asking £29 to watch their match with Sheffield Wednesday? Or Bristol Rovers with demanding £415 for a League Two season ticket? Because you let them.

As Stefan Szmanski and Tim Kuypers show in Winners & Losers, The Business Strategy of Football, demand for football in the UK - like cigarettes and booze - is price inelastic. That is, when prices go up, demand dips only slightly. Cue smiles in boardrooms across the land.

They wouldn't stand for it on the continent. A cheap ticket for Borussia Dortmund costs under £10, Roma just £15, and a Real Madrid season ticket is a bargain £200. Fans stand up for themselves more in mainland Europe; in England they just roll over.

Oh what an atmosphere

So what do you get for your over-priced match ticket? Football that's sharper and sexier than a decade ago? Yes, if you support the big four. But elsewhere the standard has dipped, simply because of the top clubs' spending power. Ten years ago, for instance, Manchester City would have built their team around Shaun-Wright Phillips. Now he's merely a Chelsea reserve.

The atmosphere's become rubbish too. Go to a match 15 or more years ago, and by 2.30pm the terraces would reverberate with a Spector-esque wall of sound. Even if the game was dire, the chants and terrace witticisms would turn it into a spectacle of sorts - albeit one where hooliganism was rife.

These days at home matches, what usually happens? You get to the ground at 2.50pm, just in time to hear a local radio DJ induce a faux-atmosphere by shouting: "Are you ready? I said: Are you ready? Let's make some noise!" Like sheep, the crowd responds, sings one song, and then settles back into silence.

The truth is, you probably only leave your seat only when a goal is scored, five minutes before half-time (to go to the toilet and scoff down a congealed pie in four bites or less) and, 10 minutes before the end "to beat the traffic". And you pay £20, £30 or £40 for this? Every other week?

The loyalty card

Some fans will accept all the above, but defend themselves with the greatest idiocy of all. The loyalty argument. Simply put, you love your club, and believe that - on some level - there's a bond between you, the players and your team. You'd follow them everywhere, perhaps even fight for them. Sadly, it's not reciprocated.

"While the pros are polite to supporters, they think them fools," wrote Rick Gekoski in his excellent book on Coventry's 1997-98 season, A Fan Behind The Scenes In The Premiership. "I was reminded of a conversation I'd had with John Salako. 'Fans,' he said, 'most of them are sad. They think the game is more important than it is, it says something about the miserable kind of lives they must lead. They get things out of proportion.'

"Another player, who did not wish to be named, said: 'Fans? Come on. Players hate fans.'"

I know one agent who tells his players, who mostly play in the lower leagues, to kiss the badge when they first score for their new club. "Most fans buy it every single time," he chuckles. And that's not all you buy. There's the season ticket, the third alternative away strip, the premium rate text service to keep you abreast of your reserve striker's groin injury, etc and so on. When are you going to realise that when your favourite club isn't counting your cash, it's laughing at you?

Absence of reason and imagination

Football, as 'creative' advertising types never tire of telling us, is like a religion. They mean it in a positive sense - ignoring the fact that religion is antithetical to reason and rationality.

Examples abound. Whenever a star player leaves for a big club and more money, fans swarm onto Sky Sports News or the local radio, each spitting "betrayal" with Paisleyesque venom. The fact that they'd switch employers for a 200% pay rise without a millisecond's thought seems lost on them.

Meanwhile journalists who dare criticise a winning team - as acquaintances of mine did by suggesting Greece's Euro 2004 win was bad for football and that Liverpool were dull to watch in the Champions League last season - receive a steady thud-thud of abusive emails and are accused on message boards of having a 'vendetta' or a 'hidden agenda'. The truth is usually more prosaic: the hack's verdict is just one opinion in a game awash with them. Nothing more.

Sadly, intelligent, measured comment from fans - always a sickly child - is now on its deathbed. It says it all when Radio Five Live's 606, once the crème de la crème of football talk shows, is now a starchy mix of the vain, inane and the ignorant. And what DJ Spoony, the show's regular host, knows about football could be written on the label of a 12-inch vinyl.

A few good men (and women)

That's not to say intelligent, hard-working and crusading football fans don't exist. Just look at Lincoln, where supporters were involved in part of a community buy-out in 2001 - attendances are up and so are profits. Ditto trust-owned Chesterfield, which has gone from £2m in debt to break even, with the highest gates in 24 seasons. And then there's Luton, who having escaped the clutches of John Gurney largely due to fans' pressure and a skilful media campaign, now stand atop the Championship.

The trouble is, there are just seven clubs in the country owned by supporters' trusts - while only 23 trusts have elected directors on the board. Mutual trusts need to become the norm, not the exception, and that needs fans to get stuck in.

Another problem is that supporters remain stunningly insular. When it's your club being dragged over the coals, you fight tooth and nail. When it's the club up the road, you merely shrug your shoulders. Most fans were rightly appalled by how the FA allowed Wimbledon move to Milton Keynes - but how many protested?

What is to be done?

Football, for all its faults, is still the best sport in the world. But it has become an increasingly ugly mix of Thatcherite greed and Gradgrindian inequality. It needs to be taken down a peg - and supporters are the best ones to do it.

So, here's a plan of sorts. Start by refusing to become a slave to football's pointless merry-go-round every summer. Take the transfer gossip pages with a pinch of salt (trust me, most of it really is made up) and certainly don't bother frittering your money on pointless pre-season friendlies or the Intertoto Cup (you never know, Uefa might eventually get the message).

Instead, get out more. Enjoy the sporting summer: Wimbledon, the Open, the flat season, rugby league, cricket, whatever - all sports where Corinthian values haven't yet been splayed by a pernicious win-at-all-costs mentality. If you took less interest in football, the media might too. And with any luck, football's imperialism - an imperialism which dictates that gossip about a rich player going from one rich club to another is the most important story in the sporting world - might start to crumble.

Become smarter and less compliant. If Birmingham are charging £45 for an away ticket (as they did to Manchester United fans last season) just say no. If you think a Sky Sports subscription is too expensive, watch the games in the pub. If you're sick of the Premiership, try watching your local club again. If you believe fans should be allowed to stand again, join http://www.safestanding.com/safe/index.php or organise a national standing day - let's see the stewards try to stop thousands of you.

More importantly still, widen your focus to beyond your club. It's not good for English football that we now have a three-teams-can-win-it Premiership. Or that TV money is more unequally distributed than ever. Or - as Lord Burns recently pointed out - that the Premiership clubs have undue influence with the Football Association. So get involved.

In short, it's not necessarily a given that football will become more soulless and uncompetitive with every passing year. But the game needs your help. After all, no one ever changed the world by sitting on their capacious backside, eating a pork pie and shouting beetroot-face abuse at Wayne Rooney, did they?

-----------------------------------
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.


Sunday, Bloody Super Sunday

I used to really enjoy English football, I really did. I used to build my entire weekend around 'The Big Match' on a Sunday afternoon, MOTD on a Saturday evening, trips to Goodison on a wet October afternoon - football wasn't my 'life' as such, but it had a pretty damned major part in it. So why is it that I can't even sit through five minutes of a Premiership match nowadays (apart from my beloved Everton and even that is becoming pretty difficult these days)?

Well...

1) I don't like the players. I can't relate to these over-paid over-rated whingers. There are a handful out there who command respect, but look at most of them on Saturday (or Sunday, Monday, etc.) and look at their petulant behaviour. I just don't like them. There used to be a time (probably before my time, thinking about it) when you could consider the footballers as 'one of us'. Nowadays, not only are footballers 'one of them', we can't even pronounce their names.

2) TV. I live abroad, but I get access to every live game and the 3 o'clock kick-offs too. I can pick and choose as I like, but surely the hype is getting to the players' heads? Best league in the world, my . In Germany, the fans went on strike when the TV companies threatened to move the games from Saturday afternoons. Result? Most games are played on a Saturday afternoon, and the Bundesliga provides great entertainment in front of full grounds. SKY could improve things massively by putting most games on a Saturday afternoon, making them all pay-per-view (there's your money angle) and putting one game on the Sunday. Enough, really.

3) Stop that stupid Premiership music before every game, stop the hand-shaking. It's pathetic.

4) Ever since stadiums were forced to go all-seater, the atmosphere at games has been tepid. And so far over the last two seasons, so has the football. Surely part of the thrill was the atmosphere? Go to places like the Riverside and St. Mary's and it's like sitting in a library - and no amount of furry mascots trying to 'pump up the crowd' will help. It's c***. Oh, and it costs bloody loads.

5) What's with all these 'light balls'? They're rubbish. So they go faster, they bend more, whoopee-doo. The faster the game goes, the less skill there is, and seeing as most of the Premiership is devoid of skill, why not revert to a heavier ball? Slow the game down a little, instead of running all over the place and hoofing it over the bar all the time - and for chrissakes, bring back the tackle! Every tackle seems to get penalised these days.

6) The top three: yawn. No one will be able to compete with them, so they don't even seem to bother - look at West Brom going to Chelsea - I know Robson is no great technician but he decided to field a bunch of reserves to save his team for another match they could win. Isn't this a sad indication of the way things are in the Premiership nowadays? Teams have given up even TRYING to beat them! Chelsea don't even seem to be trying but they're winning every game to nil.

So until the Sky falls in on the Premiership and there's a massive financial crisis, I don't see it changing. What will change is that, apart from Everton, I'm not going to watch it. I notice plenty of people doing the same thing. I'm not going to read all the transfer gossip because it's all lies. I'm not going to read 'exclusive interviews' with players about 'how big a match is'. I'm going to watch the South American leagues, the Bundesliga, and I'm going to read more books, spend more time on the golf course, and maybe some more time with the wife...and probably save a bit of money.

I hope it sorts itself out eventually, in fact I'm pretty sure it will. Until that moment, I'm not coming back

[bigmick]

It's a brilliant read CF. You certainly weren't lying about it being a long post. Whose is it mate?
Btw my observations visa-vis Chelsea weren't a pop, just purely a personal view. Given that they are undoubtedly the best team in the league I just think they have an obligation to at least try and entertain. This is even more the case now that the very worrying precedent for weaker teams to not put out their strongest side against the blues has been set, (If WBA fielding a second string team against the League Champions so as to avoid a confidence busting hammering for the first eleven does not set the alarm bells ringing in the corridoors of power then I swear nothing will).

[maximus]

It's a brilliant read CF. You certainly weren't lying about it being a long post. Whose is it mate?

Mick,

The second post,  'Sunday, Bloody Super Sunday' was obviously written by an Everton fan. No surprise that he/she is bitter twisted and generally very, very depressed. No doubt we would be to if we were to follow the blue sh.ite 

[andy_g]

one thing we must bear in mind now when we're watching the football is that we're witnessing a theatrical business transaction. football's original purpose was entertainment, participation and escapism whereas it is now big business and the winning and losing of matches, attainment of league position, entrance to europe, marketing of players etc etc is counted in pounds and pence. but this phenomena is happening throughout all forms of entertainment - if you're a fan of the opera the show you go and see is more often than not going to be a 'safe banker' that'll guarantee the crowds and continued funding rather than anything chosen because of its cultural value or originality. apply the same to music, cinema or anything else and you'll see the same rules apply.

so maybe we're feeling the pinch from this? we're aware that we're a part of some greater transaction and we feel cheated that our £30 a week going to match, our buying of the shirt and our sky subscriptions aren't giving us the return in entertainment value we expect. we know that if we go to a shop we can pretty guarantee we're only going to buy what we believe to be value for money. in football we pay up front then hope for the best.

i personally don't actually think that the entertainment of football is any worse than it ever was. its easy to have a nostalgic glow about the quality of football 10, 20, 30 years ago - but if we had the luxury of DVDs of every season since 1955 i'd bet my last penny that we'd be skipping through a whole bunch of dross looking for the 'classic' games. maybe now its a little better? always having the 'baddies' at the top to try and knock off their perch? it used to be liverpool, then it was man united, now its chelsea. the reasons may be different but the competition is still there.

and so what if some mangers change their teams according to who they thinkk they can beat and who not? i call this shrewd playing of the game. for those smaller clubs the value is in staying up in the premiership not the temporary glory of beating chelsea at home. i'm sure the fans would agree.

this early season  time is weird for us liverpool fans. we very recently had the most exciting, ecstatic, mind blowing experience you can probably have as a football fan. now we're back in the comparatively humdrum premiership opening exchanges and have only played 3 games when nearly everyone else has played 5. we haven't seen much football and even less goals - it'll come. wait til sunday at 11am and not one of us is going to be feeling jaded as we line up against our biggest rivals, no one will be thinking about 'how chelsea ruined football', or other cr@p - that game represents what it is really all about.

[Chelsea forever.]

It's a brilliant read CF. You certainly weren't lying about it being a long post. Whose is it mate?
Btw my observations visa-vis Chelsea weren't a pop, just purely a personal view. Given that they are undoubtedly the best team in the league I just think they have an obligation to at least try and entertain. This is even more the case now that the very worrying precedent for weaker teams to not put out their strongest side against the blues has been set, (If WBA fielding a second string team against the League Champions so as to avoid a confidence busting hammering for the first eleven does not set the alarm bells ringing in the corridoors of power then I swear nothing will).

I understand that being the best team in the league and the most effective team in entire Europe since Jose took over we are expected to produce football that pleases the eye. Last season we had a slow start (in terms of beautiful football) but a super start (in terms of effective football) and produced a brilliant run breaking all existing EPL records and losing only 1 game. This season we have had a similar start but I do believe the beautiful football will come a tad sooner than it did last season.

In the beginning I did think we would lose a few games (but I always have thought we will retain the title) but now those thoughts are under scrutiny. The thing is Jose operates in a different way, his first and foremost want from the players is to defend well and always hit the opposition where it hurts. If its a long ball that hurts them or an attacking in the 73rd min when they are tired or any other bizarre situation. Once we are 1-0 up he loves testing the defense. He wants the players to realize that teams find it difficult to break us down, he wants them to be content with 1-0 and accept the pressure and keep the side out. Once this has been done and a few games are gone then the goals start.

He would rather win 1-0 than win 5-2. He would rather win 1-0 for the first 3 months and then get the goals than win 2-0 and 3-0 in the start and give the players that arrogant confidence - because no team can be underestimated and one must always work hard and respect the opposition.

I am very disappointed with our first CL game and I too want to goals to come, but id take 3 points any day.

[stmichael]

Boring? I don't mean Rafa's Liverpool or the forum or anything. I mean the whole football season sofar. It just hasn't got going yet for me.
Maybe it's the cricket taking care of everybody's emotions into the start of the new season (and being from Yorkshire I love my leather on willow and warm beer as much as the next man). Maybe it's the national team, bereft of imagination and passion, stumbling to defeat against a desperately poor Northern Irish team. Maybe it's Chelsea, the current best team in the country unable to come close to filling up their ground despite their position in one of the biggest population centres in the World. Due in no small part I think to their "professionalism" and happiness to rely on counter-attacking football even at home. Maybe it's the fact that I watched Bolton draw 0-0 with Blackburn on the telly the other night and was filled with despair over what has come to be passed as entertainment.
It could be of course that maybe it's just me and that all is OK. Perhaps we are being treated to a football feast every week and I'm just too grumpy to see it.
Hopefully this weekend will see a classic Liverpool/Man Utd encounter. Hopefully there will be goals, controversy, talking points and a passion to fuel the fires of the oncoming Autumnal chill. I hope so because football needs it in my view.

good post bigmick. i agree entirely. it's right what you say with regards to the cricket as i think the common man can relate to them more than these millionaire footballers. when you see people like freddie flintoff they just seem like normal down to earth people who excel in their field. cricket is the new football if you like.

i've said for some time that football is driving fans away. 29,000 at chelsea the other night. thousands of empty seats at the boro, bolton, blackburn and wigan. why? i'll tell you why. it's negative tactics. there's so much pressure on managers to produce results these days that they're sending their teams out to a 4-5-1 system not to get beat as opposed to going out to win. i hear managers coming out with cliches such as "it's the result that matters, not entertainment value" which pretty much sums it up for me.

[supersub]

I have to agree with just about eveything that CF has posted.Although it's not the missing of friendlies that will put the frighteners on the clubs,it's refusing to attend the cup games that would send out the shock waves.
I am thankful I spent my teens and 20's watching the Reds conquer Europe.

[Chelsea forever.]

About this cricket thing.

I live in India where Cricket is everything and players are worshiped. I get to know a lot of results much before hand and every single time they are true. Most of the games are fixed and most of the players accept money.

There is more curroption in Cricket than there is in Football.

... and personally, I hate Cricket.

[Leonmc0708]

Hopefully this weekend will see a classic Liverpool/Man Utd encounter. Hopefully there will be goals, controversy, talking points and a passion to fuel the fires of the oncoming Autumnal chill. I hope so because football needs it in my view.

Personally Michael, I will be happy to see a boring game of clashing styles and formations settled by a flukey 99th minute freak of a goal scored off PEter Crouch's Ar.se past Van Der Saar.

[Chelsea forever.]

... and if that happens I will not watch football again!




























Well now I cant do that can I? Im just another stupid football fan!