Liverpool FC Forum

[Ciggy]

Now the premiership started around a month ago, and as a few have stated already its been extremely boring till now so is the problem really 5-4-1 or is the problem that teams are afraid to lose incase they fall further behind Chelsea?

The main culprits of this system last season where Bolton and the Bitters, getting scrappy 1-0 wins and defending with 10 men behind the ball.

Extremly hard to break down and also extremly boring but it didnt matter to them or their fans, whether it was boring or not as long as they got points.

Us as Liverpool fans love exciting attacking football I suppose we have been spoilt over the years with having excellent strikers at our Great club, Rush, Fowler, Owen etc, but now in the prem you are lucky if your striker gets 10 goals a season, so there is no wonder striker anymore, and most teams dont fear strikers as much as they used to.

Why has this happened? Is there no one out there to get 25 goals a season? Or is it that the english prem is the toughest in the world to play in, MO said the prem has changed alot in the year he was away, a player with one of the best records around will NOT get 20 goals for the toon this season.


Cisse for Auxere I think he got around 27 goals in one season in all comps over in France, but he will struggle to get 15 a season for us.

So what does everyone prefer? The old fashion way 4-4-2, I know I do, it was great stuff to watch instead of this boring sort of chess like game cancelling each other out, until someone makes a mistake and then its 1-0 then thats sort of it.

People pay an awful lot of money following their teams all over England tickets price's have rocketed, hotel accomodation, travel expenses etc etc, for the normal working class person whom after earning their hard earned cash all week and have their outlet going to watch the game they love at the weekend or midweek deserve more than this.

They want to see their teams work hard for their money score goals a plenty, not just turn up not to get beat, and its looking that way at the moment.

Now a new devil has rared its ugly head in the name of Roman Abramovich, no one can compete with there transfer dealings, but just because they have a bottomless pit of money it doesnt mean that every team in the prem should show them respect, afterall they are only 11 men V 11 men, I watched Real last night and Barca the night before.

The two of these games where the most broing load of rubbish I have ever seen, and look at how much money has been spent on players in these 2 clubs, ok Real have spent more than Barca but still, surely a team with such high quality players should not be getting beat by Bilbao, ok it was a Woodgate own goal, but Real should have been 2 up by then surely.?

I dont know whats happneing at the moment in the footballing world, and maybe over the next few games things will start to open up a bit more, than what we are seeing at the moment, who knows fanpower maybe just the key here, to make managers sit up and listen and be heard when we say we want to see football not a game of CHESS.

[Ace Ventura]

Some good points made cggy.
Although the formation everyone is playing is 4-5-1 not 5-4-1 
I think the lesser sides have looked at the bl@e sh@te and Bolton and what they achieved last season by playing that formation and thinking...even if we dont win most games, we wont lose many either...or if we lose it wont be a total hiding 4 or 5 nil.
Now imo it is going to come back and hurt a few teams cos if everyone plays it, there will just be a load of draws, and the attacking sides who have gone for it in games like West Ham might end up losing more, but they will also win more, and a big point...there stadium will be full.
Even the bigger sides ourself...and the manc scum are adopting the same type of formation which is resulting in again draws.
As you pointed out they are scared to lose because of how well Chelsea are doing...but they are not looking at it right, a draw is as bad as a loss if Chelsea keep winning.
They should be attacking especially at home, the mancs at home with the crowd behind us was an ideal oppurtunity to get a big win.
I can see where rafa was comin from, we didn't lose and have had a steady start to the season, if we beat Chelsea and win the games in hand we will be right there with them.
I would of preferred the gamble, but most premiership managers unfortunately havent got the same outlook.
Thats because a few defeats and the S (sack) word comes out.
I hope we adopt a more attacking outlook on our upcoming fixtures and that includes Chelsea, not gung ho...but taking the game to them.
Its not just the formation though, imo the players were far too deep against united and we need to be further up the field and putting the opposition on the back foot.
But i do agree with alot of what your saying cggy...and so do alot of fans not just lfc judging by the empty stadiums accross the country.

[Sabre]

Extremly hard to break down and also extremly boring but it didnt matter to them or their fans, whether it was boring or not as long as they got points.

Good post, really good post. But if I were you I wouldn't be that worried. At least in the Liga, all this stuff of preferring defensive systems rather than atacking ones is a matter of cycles.

When the most defensive football was being seen in Spain, Cruyff's Barcelona appeared with the 3-5-2 that seemed to have reinvented football (but it has it flaws needless to say).

Same applies to the 4-5-1, which I don't think it's a stuff of yesterday. J.B. Toshack (who keeps talking about Liverpool and modest Swansea in my local newspaper) brought that system to Spain back in the eighties, and, well, he earned a chance to be the coach of Real Madrid.

Bottomline, don't worry, it's not a linear tendency, but cycles. About not crowded stadiums, IMHO it has to do more with the abusive prices rather than the show provided. It's a travsty that they ask me (1)45 Euros to see a show of 90 minutes, every week, bloody Hell, U2 on tour with all those lights costed me that!!!

Sabre

(1) Season tickets are cheap though, I pay only 140 pounds a year to insult Beckham and all the major stars (cheapest yearly ticket stadium in Spain)

[teamleader1]

Although Everton and bolton survive on negative boring tactics
I think that a certain GH helped in no small way- how many of you like myself (plus friends) threatened not to go again until he was sacked
Does anyone think our treble under him helped germinate this safety before entertainment attitude?
Its definitley not the deciding factor but surely success of that magnitude playing negative football must surely influence other managers
I know Im putting myself up to be shot at but when we did the treble we all thought that the class football would follow
IMO it never did in fact it got worse, I feel that his time at the helm was by far the most sustained boring period ive ever had watching the reds
I can honestly say I never really looked forward to the next game

[Ola Mr Benitez]

It appears to be more important not to lose now, rather than to win games.

Football is now a business first and a sport/entertaing 90 mins second. 

And the reason why???  Simple MONEY!!! 

You then have to ask the question why has our great game gone this way, who is responsible for loading the game with unbelievable wealth.  The answer is SKY!

To get a peice of the SKY pie, you must be in the Premiership, which means it is now more improtant to not lose your premiership status than to actually have any desire to win it.  (apart from maybe 4 or 5 teams who actually have a chance)

Well thats my opinion anyway!

[SouthCoastShankly]

I think the problem lies in the worry of falling behind Chelsea, as you pointed out cggy.

In previous seasons where Man Utd and Arsenal we're champions there was always teams looking to lock horns with the top 2 and ready for a fight regardless if they we're to win. It seems now that ever since chelsea began to prolifically score, that teams are using a method of defending to get all the points you can against sides who are clearly better than you. Liverpool did this against Man Utd, the formation was cautious, and desinged to avoid defeat.

If one thing has come out of previous seasons is that when the premiership champions end up losing their dominance, i.e. Man Utd in the last few years, and now Arsenal, that th eteam who replaces them are the team willing to believe and show that they can beat them and be more consistent.

If Liverpool are to topple Chelsea, they need this attitude. I do not believe Rafa's intention is to push for  the league this season, This is the most cautious I have seen Liverpool be ever. I can only think that Rafa does not want a 'cricket style' collapse and want Liverpool to get the basics back and build on them.

Somehow this has had a nasty side-effect of 1 league goal all season, which is totally alien to LFC, we have always been a good scoring side.

Rafa needs to find the balance and a solution quick because his well intentioned caution, i.e. 4-5-1 systems, could well end us up in mid-table no-mans land

[hobbes]

Thats what I've been saying. Liv has to score.... Why worry about the rest of the Primiership teams... we score we go up ...let them achieve what they want by not conceding goals.

Something I have to admit. Liv game is not the worst in excitement. Though we dont score but we put on some show in attack with Man U and Borough.

The worst is of course Chelsea. I dont know why I am saying this... not only because I dont like them but truly with the squad they have.... scoring 1 goal or 2 is not exciting at all. When I say excitement.. I dont mean than 1 minute/ 2 when Chelsea score. Look at the their game in full 90 minutes.

[hawkmoon269]

It undeniable that Money is the root to all the problems in football.  But I can't blame the smaller teams from playing defensively.  You play to your strengths.  If the likes of Bolton need to pack the defence, and hold on to get a goal on the break away, then so be it.  It's up to the stronger teams to be able to break them down.

You're never going to get 20 teams playing fluid attractive football - because the smaller teams would never be able to match the attacking prowess of the mega spenders.

So we will always have smaller teams playing defensively, trying to hold and break up attacks from defensive positions.  It's up to the world class coaches and star players to counter this.

[SouthCoastShankly]

I agree somewhat but not entirely.

I reckon West Ham will stay up this season, I was surprised when they went down. West Ham have shown that lower teams that attack the top clubs eventually start winning and sometimes make the transistion into a good top-flight club, look at teams like Fulham and Newcastles of previous years.

[stmichael]

it's simple lynds, it's FEAR.

at the start of the season, about 12 of the 20 premiership teams are concerned about survival first and foremost. therefore they set their teams up to give nothing away and try and nick something on the break. every game has become "too important" in the modern age. look at the manure game last week, look at chelsea-arsenal a few weeks back. utter dross.

there are a lot of great players in the premiership but there are unfortunately too many average ones aswell. here's a question. how many players do you see in the modern game who actually run at defenders? henry, rooney, robben, duff, maybe SWP (who's hardly played this season). after this, i'm struggling. these types of players are dying out. managers want players who are physical and will "put their foot in" over players who have a bit of flair and are exciting to watch.

players also seem to be injured more than ever before. why? they've got the best facilities ever these days. every club's also got dieticians, nutritionalists, psychologists, you name it. yet every week we've got players pulling hamstrings. it's unbelievable.

[115-1073096938]

Football's boring?



Its not for girls.

[Ciggy]

Football's boring?



Its not for girls.

Who said its not for girls?  if you dont agree just dont post on it simple really.

[Fowler_E7]

RVN another good forward is struggling to find the back of the net, Henry another 20 goal a season man, will not be as effective this season for Arsenal either.

what a load of rubbish, RVN strugggling to score goals he has about 6 already and on what evidence do you say Henry will score less? he's already got a few this season and has scored over 20 premiership goals every year for about years in a row, teams have been packing defences against arsenal for years and he always seems to find a way through.

[stoney]

how many players do you see in the modern game who actually run at defenders? henry, rooney, robben, duff, maybe SWP (who's hardly played this season). after this, i'm struggling.

Hmm.. that c ronaldo cant beat a man to save his life.   Also SWP is a better dribbler than duff. (Duff just uses him pace mostly rather than actual skill). Im surprised that you were struggling to name more players that run at defenders in the prem as there are lots more including Thomas, Defoe, Routledge etc. and these players DO actually do it well. However if you just failed to mention these other players to show your point then i understand     

[Ciggy]

what a load of rubbish, RVN strugggling to score goals he has about 6 already and on what evidence do you say Henry will score less? he's already got a few this season and has scored over 20 premiership goals every year for about years in a row, teams have been packing defences against arsenal for years and he always seems to find a way through.

RVN has got 4 goals this season, and no I dont think Henry with get 20 odd goals this season.