Liverpool FC Forum

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:16 am

Rafael Benitez has been told what to do so often by people who turned out to be wrong that it is no surprise that he believes he is the only one who can be right.

If Liverpool's crisis could be solved by beating Manchester United today or by removing beach balls from the goalkeeper's line of sight, then their problems would be simple and easily resolved.

But their problems are deeper and more grave than that and have inevitably affected Benitez's side. Liverpool's existence is in peril and that is not the fault of Rafael Benitez.

George Gillett and Tom Hicks will be at Anfield this lunchtime, perhaps having encountered the protest march against them before kick-off. These public displays are now as much a part of the big occasion for Hicks and Gillett as 'You'll Never Walk Alone' and the sight of Benitez prowling on the touchline, demanding more and more and more. At the moment, Liverpool look like they have had enough.

Liverpool slipped officially into crisis as Lyon rampaged at Anfield last Tuesday. The crowd jeered as Yossi Benayoun was inexplicably substituted. Once more the time had come for all those who have never comprehended Benitez to tell him what he was doing wrong.

Liverpool fans who have phone-in shows on speed dial are always prone to hysteria. They began shrieking on Tuesday night and have not stopped since. They have been joined by a media which has always felt that Benitez is not as much one defeat away from a crisis as one Champions League triumph away from being found out.

They thrive on their own short-term memory loss, dismissing and forgetting all that Benitez has achieved and forgetting, too, that he has in the past emerged from crises as bad as this one on the field.

He has, in fact, revitalised the club. He has made the European Cup a special part of Liverool's calendar again, when they had only reached the knock-out stages on one occasion before he took over and failed to qualify for the tournament at all more often than they made it. He has never had the financial power to compete with Manchester United and Chelsea, who have won every league title since he arrived in England. Last season, he finished ahead of Roman Abramovich's Chelsea. Alex Ferguson may have been right when he said Liverpool could not do that again.

Benitez, however, does not have the power to take away Liverpool's current problems. He has prevented the disintegration of the club having an even more detrimental affect on his team and that is one of the great managerial achievements of the age.

There are those who like to separate the problems caused by Hicks and Gillet from those caused by David Ngog. When they talk of the inexplicable substitution of Benayoun -- another outstanding Benitez signing -- the preference for Lucas and at times the pessimistic words falling from Benitez's mouth then they are right to suggest that the manager must alone be blamed for these mistakes.

Yet everything else is misunderstood or ignored. The fault lines created by Hicks and Gillett are the true cause for concern at Liverpool. The doomsday scenario that next summer another marquee player will be sold to allow Benitez to rebuild, but primarily to deal with the club's debt, is the reality. Those players -- Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano -- are, of course, more likely to stay if the team is doing well, but the team is more likely to do well if Benitez was able to spend on somebody other than Andriy Voronin.

In the last week of this summer's transfer window, Benitez rejected a £3m offer for Voronin from Hertha Berlin. He wanted to sell the player and he wanted to take a similar offer for Andrea Dossena (one of the few Benitez signings on whom he may lose money). But Benitez suspected that the money he received wouldn't trickle down to him. He has full control over transfers at Anfield but no money. Deals for David Silva and Matthew Upson were vetoed by the money men who now control Anfield. Instead he had to hold onto Voronin, even if at times the prospect of playing with ten men would seem more appealing.

This is not a complex issue. Two guys with no money and a lot of leverage buy a football club. Then the highly leveraged arena they work in collapses, bringing the world and Liverpool with it. They are left with just two guys with no money and an asset which they have saddled with a lot of debt.

Benitez learned last summer that, if he signed Robbie Keane, he would not necessarily have the money to bring in his prime target Gareth Barry. At that stage, Benitez tried to back out of the Keane deal but it was too late. Now he would force through the sale of Xabi Alonso. Benitez had grown exasperated with Alonso after a couple of seasons of poor form and the player's decision to miss a crucial game against Inter Milan to stay with his heavily pregnant wife.

Alonso changed his mind and decided to go with the team but Benitez stubbornly refused to alter his squad. In his ruthless fashion, Benitez then decided he could move him on and replace him with Barry.

Barry may be a better player than Alonso but Alonso had something Barry never could. Alonso was the player who, before Istanbul, allowed the supporters to believe in Benitez's project. When he arrived on Merseyside he had immediately grasped the culture and he offered a bridge between the Spanish world and Merseyside. Alonso was a visionary on the field and a missionary off it. Without him, there would have been no Pepe Reina and no Fernando Torres.

At his best, he was a player of rare vision. At his worst, he could disappear, lose touch with the game and become a distant and stale presence. On those days, he was invariably better than Lucas.

Benitez's refusal to consider other, more pastoral, methods to rediscover Alonso's form is characteristic and is a failing.

But every failing is a strength and Benitez was determined this summer that he would ensure that Real Madrid would pay for his falling out with the player who was once called "Son of Rafa" by the other Liverpool players.

Having made a £20m profit an Alonso, Benitez hoped to bring four players in, one of whom was Alberto Aquilani, a player who was injured when Benitez signed him as Wayne Rooney was when Alex Ferguson signed him for Manchester United. Aquilani's long-term injury record is more of a concern and points again to another gamble by a club which has become used to them.

Benitez has always been scrambling for money. Once Hicks and Gillett came rolling into town, whispering sweet nothings which have become increasingly sour and which always amounted to nothing, Benitez quickly realised the problems had intensified. He has traded extravagantly, but bad players are moved on quickly and the good ones have had to be sold to fund the arrival of the best. Benitez would have liked to keep Craig Bellamy and Luis Garcia but they were sold to allow Torres to sign.

He has spent a net figure of less than £80m or, if you want to use bald and clumsy sums, the combined reported fees for Nani, Anderson, Owen Hargreaves and Michael Carrick.

But those nuances are not considered. Benitez is paid not to listen, it is one of his jobs to ignore the phone-in shows and the media commentators who now seem to match the hysterics for shrillness. He is an expert at not listening. He has, for now, commanded the loyalty of his fans but he needs to establish quickly if his players can still tolerate his methods.

Joining the confederacy of dunces summa cum laude is Jermaine Pennant who announced from Spain that Benitez didn't give him the freedom to express himself. Pennant certainly seemed full of expression when he was pictured last season outside a night-club drinking from a bottle of Jack Daniel's.

Pennant is such an implausible figure he may have done Benitez a favour. He is not as implausible as Liverpool's owners. Benitez, in fact, may have the safest job in football. Who can sack him? Gillett? Hicks? If one did it, the other might veto it, or maybe they would come together to do the deed if somehow they could find the money. The legitimacy of any new appointment would be questioned too. The two flimflam men protect him from the sack but Benitez is a perfectionist and he knows they prevent him doing his job too.

The scale of the crisis at Liverpool is that four defeats in a row is not something Hicks and Gillett can even be concerned about. They are undoubtedly worried about revenue streams if they exit the Champions League or fail to finish in the top four, but other than that there is nothing they can do. If it keeps Benitez in a job, then their paralysis is a good thing

"The ideal board of directors should comprise of three men," Brian Clough said, "two dead and the other dying." Clough presumably needed the dying man to sign the cheques. Liverpool's atrophy is more severe than that. Benitez will endure even if Manchester United win today. Liverpool's problems have allowed United's uncertain performances to be ignored. Unlike Liverpool they have continued to pick up points despite not always playing well. Today's game is perfect for Ferguson who has almost always prospered when the goal is the short-term humiliation of Liverpool.

United's long-term mission was accomplished some time ago and they can play without pressure today knowing that Liverpool are haunted by the fear of what Michael Owen could do and their own self-destructive ways.

In 2005, Ferguson was in a worse position than Benitez is now because he had lost the fans who thought his time was up and were furious he had backed the Glazers. He survived and United prospered.

But Liverpool was built on defiance and Benitez has never been short of it either. It is one of the many reasons he has been embraced on Merseyside and why the city, like Benitez, has always been misunderstood. Defiance has always been Liverpool and Benitez's gateway to confidence. They will need both today. If Fernando Torres is fit, Liverpool will beat Manchester United and Benitez's side will be back dealing in figures even the simplest can understand

by **DAV** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:00 pm

Benny The Noon - you are so wrong.
you love the RAFA which is fine.
but the guy is not a saint,our current failings have come from various places, and one is RAFA.
Thats all i have to say about it

by **Benny The Noon** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:08 pm

DAV wrote:Benny The Noon - you are so wrong.
you love the RAFA which is fine.
but the guy is not a saint,our current failings have come from various places, and one is RAFA.
Thats all i have to say about it

by **DAV** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:10 pm

interesting response you posted their
well done and well thought out

by **Octsky** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:14 am

Our love hate relationship with Rafa continues. Sometimes he made us frustrated when he is rigid with his selection / formation that arent working, sometimes he bring us up the sky with famous victories/ Istanbul etc etc.
Well, Now the RM sc.ums wants Rafa, after their 4-0 trashing by a div 3 side. Rumors have been flying since the last 2 seasons. First they want our key player now they want our manager.
As for me, it is simple, i will need to see the team with a drive regardless of results, if we cant get the results, fine, but we must be shown giving 110% for every game.
We have been underdog since R. Evans era or earlier, going into GH era, we were the underdog that can win (Roma, Barca; Uefa cup) and in Rafa's era i will like to see us throwing away the underdog tab and become giants.

to be frank, i am truly truly sick of Real Madrid treating us like a feeder club, we are LFC for crying out loud. it like we need to whack them again 4-0 to show it to the world.

by **The_Rock** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:30 am

Octsky wrote:Our love hate relationship with Rafa continues. Sometimes he made us frustrated when he is rigid with his selection / formation that arent working, sometimes he bring us up the sky with famous victories/ Istanbul etc etc.
Well, Now the RM sc.ums wants Rafa, after their 4-0 trashing by a div 3 side. Rumors have been flying since the last 2 seasons. First they want our key player now they want our manager.
As for me, it is simple, i will need to see the team with a drive regardless of results, if we cant get the results, fine, but we must be shown giving 110% for every game.
We have been underdog since R. Evans era or earlier, going into GH era, we were the underdog that can win (Roma, Barca; Uefa cup) and in Rafa's era i will like to see us throwing away the underdog tab and become giants.

to be frank, i am truly truly sick of Real Madrid treating us like a feeder club, we are LFC for crying out loud. it like we need to whack them again 4-0 to show it to the world.

I really can't understand where these "Real madrid want Benitez" rumours are coming from. Do you seriously think Real Madrid will go after Benitez ?

They sacked Capello because they thought he was too defensive and his football wasn't pleasing to the eyes. This immediately after winning the league for them. So how in the world are they intrested in benitez ?

Unless these are the yearly "real madrid wants benitez" rumours which always seems to come out during certain "strategic" moments... :glare:

by **Emerald Red** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:34 am

The_Rock wrote:
Octsky wrote:Our love hate relationship with Rafa continues. Sometimes he made us frustrated when he is rigid with his selection / formation that arent working, sometimes he bring us up the sky with famous victories/ Istanbul etc etc.
Well, Now the RM sc.ums wants Rafa, after their 4-0 trashing by a div 3 side. Rumors have been flying since the last 2 seasons. First they want our key player now they want our manager.
As for me, it is simple, i will need to see the team with a drive regardless of results, if we cant get the results, fine, but we must be shown giving 110% for every game.
We have been underdog since R. Evans era or earlier, going into GH era, we were the underdog that can win (Roma, Barca; Uefa cup) and in Rafa's era i will like to see us throwing away the underdog tab and become giants.

to be frank, i am truly truly sick of Real Madrid treating us like a feeder club, we are LFC for crying out loud. it like we need to whack them again 4-0 to show it to the world.

I really can't understand where these "Real madrid want Benitez" rumours are coming from. Do you seriously think Real Madrid will go after Benitez ?

They sacked Capello because they thought he was too defensive and his football wasn't pleasing to the eyes. This immediately after winning the league for them. So how in the world are they intrested in benitez ?

Unless these are the yearly "real madrid wants benitez" rumours which always seems to come out during certain "strategic" moments...

No, Madrid would never want Rafa. After the last three times they tried to prize him away from Anfield, I'd assume they just gave in. Or was that made up? Who knows.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe winning the league twice with an unfancied team and breaking up the usual two horse race there has something to do with it? For example, imagine if another team outside of the Old Firm in the SPL won the title. Hard to imagine, right? Maybe his record in the CL has something to do with it also? Maybe he IS a top class manager, one of the best around, and the fact that his heart is in Madrid also has something to do with it?

You don't half spout some shyte at times, Rock.

by **Reg** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:01 pm

After Everything, Is Rafael Benitez Off To Real Madrid? by Willie Gannon

Who is most likely to succeed Pellegrino at Real Madrid?

Rafael Benitez Arsene Wenger Jose Mourinho Raul Gonzalez ...other vote to see results Every Liverpool fans worst nightmare has moved one step closer as Real Madrid have confirmed that Manuel Pelligrini only has one week to save his job, or he will be replaced. And Rafael Benitez is the favourite...

The Liverpool faithful have been through the mill lately.

The clubs worst league run in 22 years and a poor start to the Champions League have not been enough for them to turn on their manager. With whom they have always enjoyed a great rapport.

Benitez is a much loved figure at Anfield.

Since joining Liverpool from Valencia in Summer 2004, Rafa has been seen by many in Red as a kindred spirit. Someone who loves the club as much as they. And that he would give his heart and soul to bring the glory years back to Anfield.

His cause was helped by the Reds winning the Champions League in his first year as manager, beating AC Milan on penalties in Instanbul. That first year, Liverpool also got to the Carling Cup Final only to lose to Chelsea after extra time.

While Liverpool were doing well in the cup competitions their league form dipped badly and they finished fifth after a poor end to the season.

But that Champions League win endeared him to the clubs fans forever, that magical fifth win, that their English rivals haven't even come close to achieving.

The following year Liverpool finished a credible third and won the FA Cup, and Rafa became the first Liverpool manager ever to win a trophy in each of his first two seasons.

In his third year as manager Liverpool were expected to challenge for the league, but horrendous form away from home brought that title tilt to a stop by mid November, while the club were knocked out of both domestic cup competitions by Arsenal.

It was after this poor run of results that the first rumblings of Benitez's departure took place. Bookmakers even went as far as suspending betting after the placement of huge bets on Rafa to leave, but he re-affirmed his desire to stay with the club and even got the club to another Champions League Final where AC Milan exacted revenge with a 2-0 win.

The start to the 2007/08 season was disrupted by trouble in the boot room at Melwood as both Pako Ayestrian and Steve Heighway parted company with the club over Benitez wanting to take control over the youth and reserve team set-up.

While that was going on the club was entering into it's boardroom war phase after George Gillett and Tom Hicks took over the club amid huge fan-fare.

The American duo mortgaged the club for some £500 million, including £220 million that was going to be spent on a new stadium, which has yet to materialize.

It then began to emerge that Benitez was in the middle of a conflict regarding transfer spending with the two owners, and in the run up to Liverpool's crucial CL clash with Porto, bookmakers again refused to take any more bets on Rafa leaving his job.

Fearing their beloved manager was about to leave, the fans staged a massive show of support for Rafa before the game, Liverpool ran out 4-1 winners and Benitez stayed in the job. But not before it became known that Rick Parry had approached Jurgen Klinnsmann to become the clubs manager.

Benitez was devastated to hear that Parry had approached another manager, as Rafa felt that the man who brokered the deal to bring him to Liverpool was one of his closest allies, and the following season Benitez set about undermining his new adversary and forcing him to resign.

Their league campaign was over was before Christmas and Liverpool were knocked out of every cup competition so 2007/08 proved to be a barren year in more ways than one.

Last season Liverpool produced their best ever finish to a league campaign under Benitez, 2nd.

But as ever the season was an eventful one in the boardroom. Chief Executive, Rick Parry, deemed Rafa's first choice transfer of Gareth Barry too expensive at £18 million for a player with only two years left on his contract so the pair decided to go for Tottenham captain, Robbie Keane instead.

The £20 million deal was pushed through but it was then that Rafa chose to move against Parry. Benitez practically shunned Keane, and less than six months later the striker was on his way back to Spurs as Rafa complained bitterly to the board about not having full control of transfers.

With the club in it's best in their best position in some time, and the manager as popular as ever, the board relented and gave Benitez charge of the purse strings and Parry was forced to resign.

It was during the week that Parry tended his resignation, that Liverpool were set to face Real Madrid and Manchester United. Lose one or both and Rafa's future was on the line.

However, the team put in two amazing performances and won both games 4-1 and Parry ended up leaving, but again bookmakers had suspended betting.

All was not well though as there were more rumblings in the boardroom, and Benitez was openly questioned on his transfer record of having spent £170 million on 48 players in less than five years.

It was this kind of talk that led to the transfer kitty being reduced to practically nothing the following season, and with this combined to the clubs poor start to the year, betting has become rife that Benitez will not last the year at Anfield.

Following Madrid's shock 4-0 defeat to third division side Alcorcon it now appears that Manuel Pellegrino is to face the axe at Real Madrid, and the distinct possibility has arisen that Benitez could move to the Bernabeau.

Before Pellegrino was surprisingly given the job, Florentino Perez approached three managers from his four man shortlist. The others being, Arsene Wenger, Carlo Ancellotti, and Jose Mourinho.

All three turned the offer down for a variety of reasons, but Benitez was never approached as the compensation required to bring him to Madrid could have cost somewhere in the region of £20 million.

As it was Madrid chose to pay Villareal some £10 million for Pellegrino's services, and now face a bill of another £10 million to sack him.

With battling in the boardroom intensifying at Anfield, this could prove the opportune moment for all concerned if Real Madrid were to offer Benitez the managers role.

The chances of Wenger, Mourinho, or Ancellotti being offered the job again this season are astronomical never mind them actually taking the job, so Benitez at Real has taken on a distinct possibility.

If the offer was good enough it would suit the Liverpool board who would no longer have to deal with a manager they obviously don't rate or want, and who is backed to the hilt by the fans which weakens their position.

The offer might also suit Benitez as he would be moving to a club where the transfer spending dwarfs every other club, and if given time he would be able to build a team.

But time is a commodity that is rarely given at the most pressurised club in football, saying that Madrid should still realistically finish 2nd in La Liga this season, and have a good run in the Champions League so Rafa could well be tempted.

The chance of managing a club like Real only comes once in a lifetime for most, and when the offer comes while you're fighting fires set by your own board, it becomes more than tempting.

Madrid's next two games are away to city rivals Getafe and AC Milan in the San Siro, and Pellegrino has to produce not only two wins but performances of real substance from his team.

It would seem that with only one win from his last five games, Pellegrino's time at Real Madrid is at an end.

And that Florentino Perez is most likely to use the conflict at Liverpool to move for Benitez, with his current record of only one win in six being overlooked as a side effect of the turmoil.

The big losers in all of this will be Liverpool's fans. Many have backed their manager to the hilt.

And if he does leave, Anfield's boardroom could become a vacuum, with both American's trying to position themselves as the dominant force at the club, as at the moment Benitez is without doubt the most powerful figure.

The owners will then undoubtedly bicker over who would replace him and the Liverpool faithful would suffer many sleepless nights if the new appointee was a "yes-man" to the board.

None would begrudge Benitez a move, especially considering the circumstances that he operates under, but begging him to stay might be best for the club in the long run.

by **Owzat** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:16 pm

The_Rock wrote:I really can't understand where these "Real madrid want Benitez" rumours are coming from. Do you seriously think Real Madrid will go after Benitez ?

Depends which media it is coming from, our's or their's. But they do change managers regularly, Benitez is Spanish and so there is bound to be an inevitable link even though you'd think Benitez would be relatively low profile at the moment, not so much "flavour of the month"

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:22 pm

Owzat wrote:
The_Rock wrote:I really can't understand where these "Real madrid want Benitez" rumours are coming from. Do you seriously think Real Madrid will go after Benitez ?

Depends which media it is coming from, our's or their's. But they do change managers regularly, Benitez is Spanish and so there is bound to be an inevitable link even though you'd think Benitez would be relatively low profile at the moment, not so much "flavour of the month"

This is the club that appointed 'Magic' Juande Ramos last season just over a month after he was sacked for leading Spurs to their worst league start ever. No, I think Madrid know they can do A LOT worse than Rafa and have!

by **Owzat** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Owzat wrote:
The_Rock wrote:I really can't understand where these "Real madrid want Benitez" rumours are coming from. Do you seriously think Real Madrid will go after Benitez ?

Depends which media it is coming from, our's or their's. But they do change managers regularly, Benitez is Spanish and so there is bound to be an inevitable link even though you'd think Benitez would be relatively low profile at the moment, not so much "flavour of the month"

This is the club that appointed 'Magic' Juande Ramos last season just over a month after he was sacked for leading Spurs to their worst league start ever. No, I think Madrid know they can do A LOT worse than Rafa and have!

I wasn't meaning to imply he couldn't do the job, what I'm saying is he's Spanish and a high profile manager so links to Real Madrid are inevitable. The latter part was merely that our start to the season is hardly one that would or should suggest he'd be top of their christmas list.

You can always make the case that Rafa might simply be out of his comfort zone, that Spanish football is more suited to his managerial style. Has there been a title winning Spanish manager in the English top flight?

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:45 pm

Owzat wrote:The latter part was merely that our start to the season is hardly one that would or should suggest he'd be top of their christmas list.

That's the point I was questioning. Are we really doing so poorly this season that they'd now pass on a chance to have Rafa as manager (despite plenty of interest in the past)? Well, Ramos--who has much less experience and success at a top club than Rafa--had a far worse start for Spurs last season (2 pts from 8 matches & bottom of the table) and he still got hired. I'm certain Madrid will still love to have Rafa, regardless of our tepid form at times this season.

by **Owzat** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:53 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Owzat wrote:The latter part was merely that our start to the season is hardly one that would or should suggest he'd be top of their christmas list.

That's the point I was questioning. Are we really doing so poorly this season that they'd now pass on a chance to have Rafa as manager (despite plenty of interest in the past)? Well, Ramos--who has much less experience and success at a top club than Rafa--had a far worse start for Spurs last season (2 pts from 8 matches & bottom of the table) and he still got hired. I'm certain Madrid will still love to have Rafa, regardless of our tepid form at times this season.

Maybe, maybe not. But then Ramos was available at the time, we'd have to sack Rafa for the situations to be remotely comparable.

On the flip side, one 'argument' not uncommon for not sacking a manager is "who would you get in?". Well that works on the assumption contracts are unbreakable when in fact the paper they're written on is worth more

by **lakes10** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:48 pm

i am with you lot now, no more chances, sack him, i dont care about the CL game midweek, he madeus look a joke today.

bye bye Rafa, you had the money you had the time and you still could not get the CL out of your mind, you never understood it the PREM the liverpool fans after.

yes you were short of players today but you made some bad subsand i think your time is up.

by **puroresu** » Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:01 pm

Disgraceful result and the subs were insulting. A win over Man Utd in a torrid season so far isnt enough. Rafa has to go now.

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