Sack Him - All Venting In Here Please
by Rush Job » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:19 am
Isnt it typical after the week we have had and all the sh!t sensible posters have had to put up with that we beat the mancs and the forum goes down.
Dont judge a book by the cover, unless you cover just another, because blind exceptance is a sign,
Of stupid fools who stand in line...... Like..
Of stupid fools who stand in line...... Like..
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Rush Job - >> LFC Elite Member <<
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by Benny The Noon » Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:10 pm
Rafael Benitez has been told what to do so often by people who turned out to be wrong that it is no surprise that he believes he is the only one who can be right.
If Liverpool's crisis could be solved by beating Manchester United today or by removing beach balls from the goalkeeper's line of sight, then their problems would be simple and easily resolved.
But their problems are deeper and more grave than that and have inevitably affected Benitez's side. Liverpool's existence is in peril and that is not the fault of Rafael Benitez.
George Gillett and Tom Hicks will be at Anfield this lunchtime, perhaps having encountered the protest march against them before kick-off. These public displays are now as much a part of the big occasion for Hicks and Gillett as 'You'll Never Walk Alone' and the sight of Benitez prowling on the touchline, demanding more and more and more. At the moment, Liverpool look like they have had enough.
Liverpool slipped officially into crisis as Lyon rampaged at Anfield last Tuesday. The crowd jeered as Yossi Benayoun was inexplicably substituted. Once more the time had come for all those who have never comprehended Benitez to tell him what he was doing wrong.
Liverpool fans who have phone-in shows on speed dial are always prone to hysteria. They began shrieking on Tuesday night and have not stopped since. They have been joined by a media which has always felt that Benitez is not as much one defeat away from a crisis as one Champions League triumph away from being found out.
They thrive on their own short-term memory loss, dismissing and forgetting all that Benitez has achieved and forgetting, too, that he has in the past emerged from crises as bad as this one on the field.
He has, in fact, revitalised the club. He has made the European Cup a special part of Liverool's calendar again, when they had only reached the knock-out stages on one occasion before he took over and failed to qualify for the tournament at all more often than they made it. He has never had the financial power to compete with Manchester United and Chelsea, who have won every league title since he arrived in England. Last season, he finished ahead of Roman Abramovich's Chelsea. Alex Ferguson may have been right when he said Liverpool could not do that again.
Benitez, however, does not have the power to take away Liverpool's current problems. He has prevented the disintegration of the club having an even more detrimental affect on his team and that is one of the great managerial achievements of the age.
There are those who like to separate the problems caused by Hicks and Gillet from those caused by David Ngog. When they talk of the inexplicable substitution of Benayoun -- another outstanding Benitez signing -- the preference for Lucas and at times the pessimistic words falling from Benitez's mouth then they are right to suggest that the manager must alone be blamed for these mistakes.
Yet everything else is misunderstood or ignored. The fault lines created by Hicks and Gillett are the true cause for concern at Liverpool. The doomsday scenario that next summer another marquee player will be sold to allow Benitez to rebuild, but primarily to deal with the club's debt, is the reality. Those players -- Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano -- are, of course, more likely to stay if the team is doing well, but the team is more likely to do well if Benitez was able to spend on somebody other than Andriy Voronin.
In the last week of this summer's transfer window, Benitez rejected a £3m offer for Voronin from Hertha Berlin. He wanted to sell the player and he wanted to take a similar offer for Andrea Dossena (one of the few Benitez signings on whom he may lose money). But Benitez suspected that the money he received wouldn't trickle down to him. He has full control over transfers at Anfield but no money. Deals for David Silva and Matthew Upson were vetoed by the money men who now control Anfield. Instead he had to hold onto Voronin, even if at times the prospect of playing with ten men would seem more appealing.
This is not a complex issue. Two guys with no money and a lot of leverage buy a football club. Then the highly leveraged arena they work in collapses, bringing the world and Liverpool with it. They are left with just two guys with no money and an asset which they have saddled with a lot of debt.
Benitez learned last summer that, if he signed Robbie Keane, he would not necessarily have the money to bring in his prime target Gareth Barry. At that stage, Benitez tried to back out of the Keane deal but it was too late. Now he would force through the sale of Xabi Alonso. Benitez had grown exasperated with Alonso after a couple of seasons of poor form and the player's decision to miss a crucial game against Inter Milan to stay with his heavily pregnant wife.
Alonso changed his mind and decided to go with the team but Benitez stubbornly refused to alter his squad. In his ruthless fashion, Benitez then decided he could move him on and replace him with Barry.
Barry may be a better player than Alonso but Alonso had something Barry never could. Alonso was the player who, before Istanbul, allowed the supporters to believe in Benitez's project. When he arrived on Merseyside he had immediately grasped the culture and he offered a bridge between the Spanish world and Merseyside. Alonso was a visionary on the field and a missionary off it. Without him, there would have been no Pepe Reina and no Fernando Torres.
At his best, he was a player of rare vision. At his worst, he could disappear, lose touch with the game and become a distant and stale presence. On those days, he was invariably better than Lucas.
Benitez's refusal to consider other, more pastoral, methods to rediscover Alonso's form is characteristic and is a failing.
But every failing is a strength and Benitez was determined this summer that he would ensure that Real Madrid would pay for his falling out with the player who was once called "Son of Rafa" by the other Liverpool players.
Having made a £20m profit an Alonso, Benitez hoped to bring four players in, one of whom was Alberto Aquilani, a player who was injured when Benitez signed him as Wayne Rooney was when Alex Ferguson signed him for Manchester United. Aquilani's long-term injury record is more of a concern and points again to another gamble by a club which has become used to them.
Benitez has always been scrambling for money. Once Hicks and Gillett came rolling into town, whispering sweet nothings which have become increasingly sour and which always amounted to nothing, Benitez quickly realised the problems had intensified. He has traded extravagantly, but bad players are moved on quickly and the good ones have had to be sold to fund the arrival of the best. Benitez would have liked to keep Craig Bellamy and Luis Garcia but they were sold to allow Torres to sign.
He has spent a net figure of less than £80m or, if you want to use bald and clumsy sums, the combined reported fees for Nani, Anderson, Owen Hargreaves and Michael Carrick.
But those nuances are not considered. Benitez is paid not to listen, it is one of his jobs to ignore the phone-in shows and the media commentators who now seem to match the hysterics for shrillness. He is an expert at not listening. He has, for now, commanded the loyalty of his fans but he needs to establish quickly if his players can still tolerate his methods.
Joining the confederacy of dunces summa cum laude is Jermaine Pennant who announced from Spain that Benitez didn't give him the freedom to express himself. Pennant certainly seemed full of expression when he was pictured last season outside a night-club drinking from a bottle of Jack Daniel's.
Pennant is such an implausible figure he may have done Benitez a favour. He is not as implausible as Liverpool's owners. Benitez, in fact, may have the safest job in football. Who can sack him? Gillett? Hicks? If one did it, the other might veto it, or maybe they would come together to do the deed if somehow they could find the money. The legitimacy of any new appointment would be questioned too. The two flimflam men protect him from the sack but Benitez is a perfectionist and he knows they prevent him doing his job too.
The scale of the crisis at Liverpool is that four defeats in a row is not something Hicks and Gillett can even be concerned about. They are undoubtedly worried about revenue streams if they exit the Champions League or fail to finish in the top four, but other than that there is nothing they can do. If it keeps Benitez in a job, then their paralysis is a good thing
"The ideal board of directors should comprise of three men," Brian Clough said, "two dead and the other dying." Clough presumably needed the dying man to sign the cheques. Liverpool's atrophy is more severe than that. Benitez will endure even if Manchester United win today. Liverpool's problems have allowed United's uncertain performances to be ignored. Unlike Liverpool they have continued to pick up points despite not always playing well. Today's game is perfect for Ferguson who has almost always prospered when the goal is the short-term humiliation of Liverpool.
United's long-term mission was accomplished some time ago and they can play without pressure today knowing that Liverpool are haunted by the fear of what Michael Owen could do and their own self-destructive ways.
In 2005, Ferguson was in a worse position than Benitez is now because he had lost the fans who thought his time was up and were furious he had backed the Glazers. He survived and United prospered.
But Liverpool was built on defiance and Benitez has never been short of it either. It is one of the many reasons he has been embraced on Merseyside and why the city, like Benitez, has always been misunderstood. Defiance has always been Liverpool and Benitez's gateway to confidence. They will need both today. If Fernando Torres is fit, Liverpool will beat Manchester United and Benitez's side will be back dealing in figures even the simplest can understand
If Liverpool's crisis could be solved by beating Manchester United today or by removing beach balls from the goalkeeper's line of sight, then their problems would be simple and easily resolved.
But their problems are deeper and more grave than that and have inevitably affected Benitez's side. Liverpool's existence is in peril and that is not the fault of Rafael Benitez.
George Gillett and Tom Hicks will be at Anfield this lunchtime, perhaps having encountered the protest march against them before kick-off. These public displays are now as much a part of the big occasion for Hicks and Gillett as 'You'll Never Walk Alone' and the sight of Benitez prowling on the touchline, demanding more and more and more. At the moment, Liverpool look like they have had enough.
Liverpool slipped officially into crisis as Lyon rampaged at Anfield last Tuesday. The crowd jeered as Yossi Benayoun was inexplicably substituted. Once more the time had come for all those who have never comprehended Benitez to tell him what he was doing wrong.
Liverpool fans who have phone-in shows on speed dial are always prone to hysteria. They began shrieking on Tuesday night and have not stopped since. They have been joined by a media which has always felt that Benitez is not as much one defeat away from a crisis as one Champions League triumph away from being found out.
They thrive on their own short-term memory loss, dismissing and forgetting all that Benitez has achieved and forgetting, too, that he has in the past emerged from crises as bad as this one on the field.
He has, in fact, revitalised the club. He has made the European Cup a special part of Liverool's calendar again, when they had only reached the knock-out stages on one occasion before he took over and failed to qualify for the tournament at all more often than they made it. He has never had the financial power to compete with Manchester United and Chelsea, who have won every league title since he arrived in England. Last season, he finished ahead of Roman Abramovich's Chelsea. Alex Ferguson may have been right when he said Liverpool could not do that again.
Benitez, however, does not have the power to take away Liverpool's current problems. He has prevented the disintegration of the club having an even more detrimental affect on his team and that is one of the great managerial achievements of the age.
There are those who like to separate the problems caused by Hicks and Gillet from those caused by David Ngog. When they talk of the inexplicable substitution of Benayoun -- another outstanding Benitez signing -- the preference for Lucas and at times the pessimistic words falling from Benitez's mouth then they are right to suggest that the manager must alone be blamed for these mistakes.
Yet everything else is misunderstood or ignored. The fault lines created by Hicks and Gillett are the true cause for concern at Liverpool. The doomsday scenario that next summer another marquee player will be sold to allow Benitez to rebuild, but primarily to deal with the club's debt, is the reality. Those players -- Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano -- are, of course, more likely to stay if the team is doing well, but the team is more likely to do well if Benitez was able to spend on somebody other than Andriy Voronin.
In the last week of this summer's transfer window, Benitez rejected a £3m offer for Voronin from Hertha Berlin. He wanted to sell the player and he wanted to take a similar offer for Andrea Dossena (one of the few Benitez signings on whom he may lose money). But Benitez suspected that the money he received wouldn't trickle down to him. He has full control over transfers at Anfield but no money. Deals for David Silva and Matthew Upson were vetoed by the money men who now control Anfield. Instead he had to hold onto Voronin, even if at times the prospect of playing with ten men would seem more appealing.
This is not a complex issue. Two guys with no money and a lot of leverage buy a football club. Then the highly leveraged arena they work in collapses, bringing the world and Liverpool with it. They are left with just two guys with no money and an asset which they have saddled with a lot of debt.
Benitez learned last summer that, if he signed Robbie Keane, he would not necessarily have the money to bring in his prime target Gareth Barry. At that stage, Benitez tried to back out of the Keane deal but it was too late. Now he would force through the sale of Xabi Alonso. Benitez had grown exasperated with Alonso after a couple of seasons of poor form and the player's decision to miss a crucial game against Inter Milan to stay with his heavily pregnant wife.
Alonso changed his mind and decided to go with the team but Benitez stubbornly refused to alter his squad. In his ruthless fashion, Benitez then decided he could move him on and replace him with Barry.
Barry may be a better player than Alonso but Alonso had something Barry never could. Alonso was the player who, before Istanbul, allowed the supporters to believe in Benitez's project. When he arrived on Merseyside he had immediately grasped the culture and he offered a bridge between the Spanish world and Merseyside. Alonso was a visionary on the field and a missionary off it. Without him, there would have been no Pepe Reina and no Fernando Torres.
At his best, he was a player of rare vision. At his worst, he could disappear, lose touch with the game and become a distant and stale presence. On those days, he was invariably better than Lucas.
Benitez's refusal to consider other, more pastoral, methods to rediscover Alonso's form is characteristic and is a failing.
But every failing is a strength and Benitez was determined this summer that he would ensure that Real Madrid would pay for his falling out with the player who was once called "Son of Rafa" by the other Liverpool players.
Having made a £20m profit an Alonso, Benitez hoped to bring four players in, one of whom was Alberto Aquilani, a player who was injured when Benitez signed him as Wayne Rooney was when Alex Ferguson signed him for Manchester United. Aquilani's long-term injury record is more of a concern and points again to another gamble by a club which has become used to them.
Benitez has always been scrambling for money. Once Hicks and Gillett came rolling into town, whispering sweet nothings which have become increasingly sour and which always amounted to nothing, Benitez quickly realised the problems had intensified. He has traded extravagantly, but bad players are moved on quickly and the good ones have had to be sold to fund the arrival of the best. Benitez would have liked to keep Craig Bellamy and Luis Garcia but they were sold to allow Torres to sign.
He has spent a net figure of less than £80m or, if you want to use bald and clumsy sums, the combined reported fees for Nani, Anderson, Owen Hargreaves and Michael Carrick.
But those nuances are not considered. Benitez is paid not to listen, it is one of his jobs to ignore the phone-in shows and the media commentators who now seem to match the hysterics for shrillness. He is an expert at not listening. He has, for now, commanded the loyalty of his fans but he needs to establish quickly if his players can still tolerate his methods.
Joining the confederacy of dunces summa cum laude is Jermaine Pennant who announced from Spain that Benitez didn't give him the freedom to express himself. Pennant certainly seemed full of expression when he was pictured last season outside a night-club drinking from a bottle of Jack Daniel's.
Pennant is such an implausible figure he may have done Benitez a favour. He is not as implausible as Liverpool's owners. Benitez, in fact, may have the safest job in football. Who can sack him? Gillett? Hicks? If one did it, the other might veto it, or maybe they would come together to do the deed if somehow they could find the money. The legitimacy of any new appointment would be questioned too. The two flimflam men protect him from the sack but Benitez is a perfectionist and he knows they prevent him doing his job too.
The scale of the crisis at Liverpool is that four defeats in a row is not something Hicks and Gillett can even be concerned about. They are undoubtedly worried about revenue streams if they exit the Champions League or fail to finish in the top four, but other than that there is nothing they can do. If it keeps Benitez in a job, then their paralysis is a good thing
"The ideal board of directors should comprise of three men," Brian Clough said, "two dead and the other dying." Clough presumably needed the dying man to sign the cheques. Liverpool's atrophy is more severe than that. Benitez will endure even if Manchester United win today. Liverpool's problems have allowed United's uncertain performances to be ignored. Unlike Liverpool they have continued to pick up points despite not always playing well. Today's game is perfect for Ferguson who has almost always prospered when the goal is the short-term humiliation of Liverpool.
United's long-term mission was accomplished some time ago and they can play without pressure today knowing that Liverpool are haunted by the fear of what Michael Owen could do and their own self-destructive ways.
In 2005, Ferguson was in a worse position than Benitez is now because he had lost the fans who thought his time was up and were furious he had backed the Glazers. He survived and United prospered.
But Liverpool was built on defiance and Benitez has never been short of it either. It is one of the many reasons he has been embraced on Merseyside and why the city, like Benitez, has always been misunderstood. Defiance has always been Liverpool and Benitez's gateway to confidence. They will need both today. If Fernando Torres is fit, Liverpool will beat Manchester United and Benitez's side will be back dealing in figures even the simplest can understand
- Benny The Noon
by DAV » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:12 pm
Well we beat Man Utd, posts after the Man Utd game on this thread seem to think all is well again.
Well its not.
I have changed my opinion on sacking RAFA. Only because we cannot afford to. If and when he goes, he must walk, his choice.
I edited my post because i have just noticed another sack him thread, mods do something about it please its pointless, by someone who just wants to make a name for him or her self with a new thread
Well its not.
I have changed my opinion on sacking RAFA. Only because we cannot afford to. If and when he goes, he must walk, his choice.
I edited my post because i have just noticed another sack him thread, mods do something about it please its pointless, by someone who just wants to make a name for him or her self with a new thread
Last edited by DAV on Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DAV - >> LFC Elite Member <<
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by Igor Zidane » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:28 pm
DAV wrote:Well we beat Man Utd, posts after the Man Utd game on this thread seem to think all is well again.
Well its not.
I have changed my opinion on sacking RAFA. Only because we cannot afford to. If and when he goes, he must walk, his choice.
I edited my post because i have just noticed another sack him thread, mods do something about it please its pointless, by someone who just wants to make a name for him or her self with a new thread
So why have you changed your mind , stick to yer guns yer fickle sod and argue the toss . Typical , start a thread wanting to sack the manager and after one win you change your mind .
Atleast the likes of heimdall sticks with it .
UP THE PURPS !!!
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
- Igor Zidane
- >> LFC Elite Member <<
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by DAV » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:31 pm
The reason i have changed my mind on the sacking, is for the good of the club, 20million or what ever it is, is an amount we cannot aford. I want him to walk away and now.
See no abuse, you should try that when discussing something. It does not make you big and clever throwing abuse around.
See no abuse, you should try that when discussing something. It does not make you big and clever throwing abuse around.
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DAV - >> LFC Elite Member <<
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- Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 11:21 am
by Igor Zidane » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:33 pm
DAV wrote:The reason i have changed my mind on the sacking, is for the good of the club, 20million or what ever it is, is an amount we cannot aford. I want him to walk away and now.
See no abuse, you should try that when discussing something. It does not make you big and clever throwing abuse around.
Woah there matey , where have i abused you ?
UP THE PURPS !!!
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
- Igor Zidane
- >> LFC Elite Member <<
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by account deleted by request » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:36 pm
Igor Zidane wrote:DAV wrote:The reason i have changed my mind on the sacking, is for the good of the club, 20million or what ever it is, is an amount we cannot aford. I want him to walk away and now.
See no abuse, you should try that when discussing something. It does not make you big and clever throwing abuse around.
Woah there matey , where have i abused you ?
beast
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by Igor Zidane » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:39 pm
s@int wrote:Igor Zidane wrote:DAV wrote:The reason i have changed my mind on the sacking, is for the good of the club, 20million or what ever it is, is an amount we cannot aford. I want him to walk away and now.
See no abuse, you should try that when discussing something. It does not make you big and clever throwing abuse around.
Woah there matey , where have i abused you ?
beast
Ahh yer friggin shItehawk , welcome back saint lad , everthing ok . Missed yer posts mate .
UP THE PURPS !!!
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
- Igor Zidane
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by Igor Zidane » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:46 pm
DAV wrote:just for the record
The definition of SOD is "Fool, idiot or General swear word, like F***"
fickle -erratic changeableness or instability
Well it wasn't intended as abuse so i apologise if you took it that way . If you look at the vorinin thread Dav ,that's abuse mate.
UP THE PURPS !!!
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
- Igor Zidane
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by DAV » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:50 pm
ok no problem.
but as i said the reason i changed my opinion, is because i would sooner see our limited resources spent on new players. To be honest until i read it the other day i had no idea what pay off rafa what recieve.
I want to believe in the guy, but struggle of late.
I hope im proved wrong on everything i have said about the guy as of late.
And please, when we win the league all pm me with abuse of what an idiot i am.
but as i said the reason i changed my opinion, is because i would sooner see our limited resources spent on new players. To be honest until i read it the other day i had no idea what pay off rafa what recieve.
I want to believe in the guy, but struggle of late.
I hope im proved wrong on everything i have said about the guy as of late.
And please, when we win the league all pm me with abuse of what an idiot i am.
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DAV - >> LFC Elite Member <<
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by Igor Zidane » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:55 pm
DAV wrote:ok no problem.
but as i said the reason i changed my opinion, is because i would sooner see our limited resources spent on new players. To be honest until i read it the other day i had no idea what pay off rafa what recieve.
I want to believe in the guy, but struggle of late.
I hope im proved wrong on everything i have said about the guy as of late.
And please, when we win the league all pm me with abuse of what an idiot i am.
Listen your not the only one with doubts about rafa , there's shedloads of people . Were not a sacking club though it's not the LFC way . If by the end of the season we're still in the same posistion , he will walk anyway . Lets just see how the season pans out , it's a great rollercoatser ride and anything can happen .We of all clubs know that.
UP THE PURPS !!!
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
https://www.colfc.co.uk/
- Igor Zidane
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by DAV » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:03 pm
agreed.
just expect random angry threads from time to time when alcohol is involved by me and others. Mainly after a horrid night at anfield like when this was posted.
lets face it, sacking a manager when their is no transfer window is suicide. i no that. but after that game reasonable thought went a miss. If no money is available in the next transfer window, it is also pointless losing your manager.
Call me a hypacrit (thats spelt wrong i think)
but for me the only time to get rid of a manger is at the end of a season. and i mean as soon as it ends to give a new guy a chance. that applys to all football teams in my view.
so other than the odd angry thread after what hopefully wont happen again this season. Rashinable debate will hopefully be the way.
just expect random angry threads from time to time when alcohol is involved by me and others. Mainly after a horrid night at anfield like when this was posted.
lets face it, sacking a manager when their is no transfer window is suicide. i no that. but after that game reasonable thought went a miss. If no money is available in the next transfer window, it is also pointless losing your manager.
Call me a hypacrit (thats spelt wrong i think)
but for me the only time to get rid of a manger is at the end of a season. and i mean as soon as it ends to give a new guy a chance. that applys to all football teams in my view.
so other than the odd angry thread after what hopefully wont happen again this season. Rashinable debate will hopefully be the way.
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by zarababe » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:51 am
Reg wrote:Welcome back Zarababe, the lunatics have taken over the asylum..........
thanks reg'babe', seems a taste of big sam is what these loons need
THE BRENDAN REVOLUTION IS UPON US !
KING KENNY.. Always LEGEND !
RAFA.. MADE THE PEOPLE HAPPY !
Miss YOU Phil-Drummer - RIP YNWA
KING KENNY.. Always LEGEND !
RAFA.. MADE THE PEOPLE HAPPY !
Miss YOU Phil-Drummer - RIP YNWA
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