Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:20 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well I personally think the money's he's been given he should be head and shoulders above the rest. And as it's proven the players aren't good enough, I simplelly said at the start of the season, our strongest 11 could give any a run for their money, what a surprise 6 or 7 of the 11 I chose haven't been picked on a regular basis this season, injuries played a part but still, those who haven't been injured are being dropped for Kuyt and Aurellio. Also with the money Benitez has been given, to only bring in 6 or 7 world stars isn't great managing.

So our players aren't good enough, yet you believe we have a team as good as any other in the league?

Work that one out.

with hindsight they're not good enough, and even then I don't think it's the actuall players who aren't good enough.

I'm sorry mate, I really don't follow you here. With hindisght they're not good enough, but even then you don't believe it's the players that aren't good enough?

Players generally don't lose ability to any great degree in the space of 6 months or so, the quality of the team at the beginning of the season, is effectively the same as it is now.

You can't have a go at Rafa for his transfer record if you believe our team is as good as any other in the league. It doesn't add up. You either believe at the very least he has a decent transfer record, and that's why you believe we have a team capable of challenging for the league title, or, you believe his transfer record is sh!te and as a consequence our team is not good enough to be challenging.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:25 am

GBJH the seasons not over, and with at least a little stability and less speculation in recent days i'm still confident we will secure at least 4th place, not great i know. Other than in the League, we have competed in all competitions. The League being the hardest one to crack would clearly take the greater amount of time, investment and luck to do well in.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:27 am

The players who Benitez has brought in are generally not good enough. A lot of his buys have been proven to be useless, which is why he sells the majority of them on. His world stars are obviously gonna be top players, and one or two of his average buys have looked to be decent buys, Crouch, Pennant and Arbeloa. I still don't think his record in transfers is great, but the decent to world stars, with the right management could be challengeing. It's been poor management why we're not up there.

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:28 am

redtrader74 wrote:I am surprised at how little stick Moores has recieved for selling up to G&H. Every man and his dog is lining up round the corner to kick in Rafa, who is at least trying his best, even under the circumstances, but Moores' action have actually jeopardised the future of the Club.

IMO there is a very real possibility of us 'doing a Leeds', and Moores allowed this to happen, he could have easily put in conditions in the deal which could have limited the scale of debt, and checked to see if these two actually had any real money. As i understand it our debt to turnover ration is the worst in the premiership, and will only get worse if further debt is added to build the stadium.

I couldnt agree more Red i think Moores is getting off lightly in all this palava, Whats bugging me is if fans can find out about Hicks finacial situation by just seaching the net what does that say about Moores buisiness acumen, Yes i believe he loves the club but i also think he was taken in by the dollar,

How much more did Gillette and Hicks pay on what was agreed with DIC. I said ages ago this could turn into another Leeds fiasco and got slated. Well if these two dont get out as soon as that worry could become a reality.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:36 am

redtrader74 wrote:GBJH the seasons not over, and with at least a little stability and less speculation in recent days i'm still confident we will secure at least 4th place, not great i know. Other than in the League, we have competed in all competitions. The League being the hardest one to crack would clearly take the greater amount of time, investment and luck to do well in.

We may of performed in all, but performed below standards without a question. Just about qualified in the Champions League, needed a replay to beat Luton in the FA and then conceeded 2 to Havant, and in the League Cup we were given a run for our money by Reading, and then knocked out (allbeit to chelsea)

So although we're still in two competitions we've been below par in everything this year.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:36 am

NANNY RED wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:I am surprised at how little stick Moores has recieved for selling up to G&H. Every man and his dog is lining up round the corner to kick in Rafa, who is at least trying his best, even under the circumstances, but Moores' action have actually jeopardised the future of the Club.

IMO there is a very real possibility of us 'doing a Leeds', and Moores allowed this to happen, he could have easily put in conditions in the deal which could have limited the scale of debt, and checked to see if these two actually had any real money. As i understand it our debt to turnover ration is the worst in the premiership, and will only get worse if further debt is added to build the stadium.

I couldnt agree more Red i think Moores is getting off lightly in all this palava, Whats bugging me is if fans can find out about Hicks finacial situation by just seaching the net what does that say about Moores buisiness acumen, Yes i believe he loves the club but i also think he was taken in by the dollar,

How much more did Gillette and Hicks pay on what was agreed with DIC. I said ages ago this could turn into another Leeds fiasco and got slated. Well if these two dont get out as soon as that worry could become a reality.

Nanny i'm good at sums and G&H sums don't add up. Unless they intend on dipping into their own pockets (as Lando put it, when Satan goes to work on skates :laugh:

), to build us a new stadium they will need to borrow further, another £300m or so, how on earth will we service that debt? at current rates that will mean interest payments of just under £60m, OMG. So either we have the biggest mortgage in football, or we don't get a new stadium, and therefore another lie, and without a bigger stadium the £30m we already have to pay each year will become very difficult, and will eat into our transfer budget.

We could quite easily fall into recievership, if the expected slowdown in the economy occurs, which will in turn reduce our turnover.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:36 am

The players who Benitez has brought in are generally not good enough. A lot of his buys have been proven to be useless, which is why he sells the majority of them on. His world stars are obviously gonna be top players, and one or two of his average buys have looked to be decent buys, Crouch, Pennant and Arbeloa. I still don't think his record in transfers is great, but the decent to world stars, with the right management could be challengeing. It's been poor management why we're not up there.

To some extent, but in my view, off the pitch this season's been unlike any other, and I don't think it's a season that represents his true managerial abilities. The squad isn't quite up to standard, and nor is the team. If you believe it is, then his transfer record clearly isn't as bad you're making out.

You can't list all of our players and praise them, and then slate Rafa for having a poor transfer record. If they're good enough to challenge for the league, his transfer record obviously isn't that bad.

It's not just about the quality we had in the squad at the beginning of the season, it's about the balance of the squad, i.e. in which positions did we have the correct players. We didn't sign a natural left winger, and we didn't sign a natural right winger, and they're my main criticisms of Rafa's transfer record last summer. Babel is quality, and in time I think he'll make it as a forward, and Benayoun is more than good enough to play in 15-25 games a season, but we really needed quality in the right places.

by **Pedro Maradona** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:42 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Pedro Maradona wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Bollox Pedro, Moores did all he could for the club, he was competeting with United when they had the best side in the division. We had to buy Babb, while they could bring in Pallister. They got Keane, we got Leohardsen. As for Chelsea everyone fell behind them because of Ambrovich and I don't think we've fell behind Arsenal in a finicial way.

He's sold us to the yanks because like us, he's a fan, and at the time near enough everyone expected them to deliver what they promised. With heinsight we can sit here and say they've proven to be clowns, but at the time it looked like a great bit of buisiness.

Its not bollox, he has been a disaster. Liverpool spent massive money on some very average players since 1991 for example we got dean saunders when Man utd bought roy keane. It wasnt a question of availabilty of funds it was a question of bringing in the right coaching staff and as a conciquence the right players. Utd won there first league in 1993. We were on the slippery slope well before 1993. Lets get one thing straight. Moores employed managers to buy players, moores didnt buy them. We paid top dollar for the likes of Babb Leonardsen etc because Evans bought them. He also let Souness buy the likes of Paul Stewart, Dean Saunders etc. (granted in hindsight easy to say they were all bad buys) Its very simple, Moores made a lot of bad decisions during his time as Chairman and im basing this on off the pitch not on the pitch. Its not a coincidence that Man Utd became the dominant club when Sky got involved and the money stakes in the game changed. Why because they were better run than Liverpool FC were run. we were left behind and we are playing catch up since. In the meantime the likes of Arsenal have won leagues in a smaller stadium and managed to built the emirates without being whored out to some billionare. Chelsea have overtaken us because of abramavich so what does Moores do he whores us to the new owner of man city, and when that falls thru he decides to turn down DIC to sell to the yanks when prior to this Doug Ellis wouldnt sell to Gillett coz he didnt trust him (who instead sold to Randy Lerner for less money.) Look under Moores Liverpool stagnated as a club. his time at the helm can be described as a period of inertia. when we needed to change and progress with the likes of Utd he did nothing. His idea was to bring in Rick Parry, yet another good move eh?
Look it is no coincidence we didnt win a league under his stewardship. it wasnt about money until the likes of Abramovich bought into the Premiership, dont be fooled by that we cudnt compete financially with the likes of Utd in the 1990s bollox because we were able to do it in the 60s, 70s and 80s, we simply got left behind in the 1990s and I put the blame at Moores door.
And in relation to the hindsight of bringing in Hicks and Gillett, Doug Ellis saw it, so why couldnt Moores?

I agree United were probably better run, but let's not forget, in the early 90s (94 to be exact) we were changing the ground when the Kop was becoming an all seater. We were still a firm believer in our youth policy in those days as well as taking gambles because United could offer all the major stars of the day more money.

Souness wrecked the club and took us backward, Moores tried to buy back the success by giving managers all the money they wanted. Unfortunately we were a long way behind catching United in the 90s (no where as far as we are now) I don't blame Moores for us not winning the league, we won our first European Cup in 21 years under Moores, is that his fault as well?

I'll always credit and fault people, but I think trying to lay all the blame on Mr. Moores is unfair. He did great things for this club, and with all the right intentions sold to the yanks. He, more than anyone is probably regretting that decision.

what great things did moores actually do?
he sat on his :censored:

and did nothing and we got left behind.
Utd werent the best club in 1991 when he took over.
You say we couldnt compete with Utd in the 1990s but we could have we just didnt. the damage was done between 1991 and 1995. we have been playing catch up since the mid 1990s on. (all under his moore stewardship)
We built the centenary stand in 1992 and refitted the Kop in 1994 it wasnt about money.
He brought in the wrong managers who bought the wrong players. By the mid 1990s the damage was done, Utd grew finacially whereas we stayed the same. they also went from strength to strength from the mid 1990s to the late 1990s. They marketed their team better and it made more money for them. we were left behind. What did Moores do....bring in Parry....wonderful.
Hindsight is a great thing but realistically we should have moved out of Anfield at the time when we were rebuilding the Centenary stand in 1992. Utd were able to keep building there stadium bigger because Old Trafford is not in a residential area and not contsrained by planning issues whereas Anfield is. Do you not think though that Moores should perhaps have realised that we were loosing revenue in the early 90s because of Anfield wasnt big enough back then?
Why is it that Arsenal were able to build the Emirates without having to resort to selling to the likes of Hicks etc? (Granted they were selling Highbury and made a lot of money because the land there is valuable and they get the likes of Brazil to supplement their income by playing there friendly matches there.) but do you not think that Arsenal are better run than us?
As for saying Moores is to blame for us winning the first European Cup in 21 years? Thats a stupid arguement and you know it. This club has been in decline since 1990 we have managed to win cups despite the incompetance of Moores. But lets be fair all the cup wins FA Cup 1992, 2001, 2006, Uefa Cup 2001, Champions League 2005 )have merely papered over the cracks of what is a badly run club under Moores.

by **redtrader74** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:46 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:GBJH the seasons not over, and with at least a little stability and less speculation in recent days i'm still confident we will secure at least 4th place, not great i know. Other than in the League, we have competed in all competitions. The League being the hardest one to crack would clearly take the greater amount of time, investment and luck to do well in.

We may of performed in all, but performed below standards without a question. Just about qualified in the Champions League, needed a replay to beat Luton in the FA and then conceeded 2 to Havant, and in the League Cup we were given a run for our money by Reading, and then knocked out (allbeit to chelsea)

So although we're still in two competitions we've been below par in everything this year.

Would you complain if we won the League by a goal difference of one, with that goal being scored off Kuyts knob, and by having won 6 penalties awarded to us in the last minute of games at 1-1 with a SG dive, and we only won because Rooney, Ronaldo, Adebayor, Fabregas, Drogba, Terry and Cech were injured all season? No i doubt it.

You are so pis sed off at Rafa that you won't acknowledge any achievements. Every trophy won, or challenged for has an element of luck involved. Never heard the Mancs knocking their CL win in 99, for having been outplayed all game.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:51 am

LFC2007 wrote:
The players who Benitez has brought in are generally not good enough. A lot of his buys have been proven to be useless, which is why he sells the majority of them on. His world stars are obviously gonna be top players, and one or two of his average buys have looked to be decent buys, Crouch, Pennant and Arbeloa. I still don't think his record in transfers is great, but the decent to world stars, with the right management could be challengeing. It's been poor management why we're not up there.

To some extent, but in my view, off the pitch this season's been unlike any other, and I don't think it's a season that represents his true managerial abilities. The squad isn't quite up to standard, and nor is the team. If you believe it is, then his transfer record clearly isn't as bad you're making out.

You can't list all of our players and praise them, and then slate Rafa for having a poor transfer record. If they're good enough to challenge for the league, his transfer record obviously isn't that bad.

It's not just about the quality we had in the squad at the beginning of the season, it's about the balance of the squad, i.e. in which positions did we have the correct players. We didn't sign a natural left winger, and we didn't sign a natural right winger, and they're my main criticisms of Rafa's transfer record last summer. Babel is quality, and in time I think he'll make it as a forward, and Benayoun is more than good enough to play in 15-25 games a season, but we really needed quality in the right places.

I think you can say Benitez has got a pretty poor transfer record, in the fact he's brought in around 40-50 players, and about 7 are actually worth keeping. That's not great. He's made good buys, but just because you make good buys doesn't mean you have a great transfer record.

Houllier brought in some quality players, but is still slaughtered for his transfer record, but because of the likes of Hyypia, Henchoz, Babbel, Finnan does that mean he had a great transfer record also? I doubt it.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:58 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
The players who Benitez has brought in are generally not good enough. A lot of his buys have been proven to be useless, which is why he sells the majority of them on. His world stars are obviously gonna be top players, and one or two of his average buys have looked to be decent buys, Crouch, Pennant and Arbeloa. I still don't think his record in transfers is great, but the decent to world stars, with the right management could be challengeing. It's been poor management why we're not up there.

To some extent, but in my view, off the pitch this season's been unlike any other, and I don't think it's a season that represents his true managerial abilities. The squad isn't quite up to standard, and nor is the team. If you believe it is, then his transfer record clearly isn't as bad you're making out.

You can't list all of our players and praise them, and then slate Rafa for having a poor transfer record. If they're good enough to challenge for the league, his transfer record obviously isn't that bad.

It's not just about the quality we had in the squad at the beginning of the season, it's about the balance of the squad, i.e. in which positions did we have the correct players. We didn't sign a natural left winger, and we didn't sign a natural right winger, and they're my main criticisms of Rafa's transfer record last summer. Babel is quality, and in time I think he'll make it as a forward, and Benayoun is more than good enough to play in 15-25 games a season, but we really needed quality in the right places.

I think you can say Benitez has got a pretty poor transfer record, in the fact he's brought in around 40-50 players, and about 7 are actually worth keeping. That's not great. He's made good buys, but just because you make good buys doesn't mean you have a great transfer record.

Houllier brought in some quality players, but is still slaughtered for his transfer record, but because of the likes of Hyypia, Henchoz, Babbel, Finnan does that mean he had a great transfer record also? I doubt it.

That's just b0llocks, I'm not even going to bother trying to justify myself this time, it's like talking to a brick wall.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:00 am

redtrader74 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:GBJH the seasons not over, and with at least a little stability and less speculation in recent days i'm still confident we will secure at least 4th place, not great i know. Other than in the League, we have competed in all competitions. The League being the hardest one to crack would clearly take the greater amount of time, investment and luck to do well in.

We may of performed in all, but performed below standards without a question. Just about qualified in the Champions League, needed a replay to beat Luton in the FA and then conceeded 2 to Havant, and in the League Cup we were given a run for our money by Reading, and then knocked out (allbeit to chelsea)

So although we're still in two competitions we've been below par in everything this year.

Would you complain if we won the League by a goal difference of one, with that goal being scored by Kuyts knob, and by having won 6 penalties awarded to us in the last minute of games at 1-1 with a SG dive, and we only won because Rooney, Ronaldo, Adebayor, Fabregas, Drogba, Terry and Cech were injured all season? No i doubt it.

You are so pis sed off at Rafa that you won't acknowledge any achievements. Every trophy won, or challenged for has an element of luck involved. Never heard the Mancs knocking their CL win in 99, for having been outplayed all game.

If you go and read an earlier post in anothe thread you'll see I've said we need luck to win anything.

My point here is this season, we're below par completely. It's not as if we're playing well and getting the odd bit of luck, it's like we're depending solely on luck this year to pull us through.

As for me being so cheesed off with Benitez I won't acknowledge any success is nonesense. I'll praise Benitez to the heaven's for certain things, I think he's done right. But I won't be dragged into this bullsh!t of him being a genius

by **redtrader74** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:10 am

I have never said Rafa is a genius (i think), there are no genius' as football managers, Einstein was a genius, not managers of a group of men who kick a ball around all day.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:01 am

redtrader74 wrote:I have never said Rafa is a genius (i think), there are no genius' as football managers, Einstein was a genius, not managers of a group of men who kick a ball around all day.

So that guy in your avatar was not a genius? :no

by **Ciggy** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:33 am

He's still alive.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports....6404844

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