Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:27 am

puroresu wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
puroresu wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well as I've already pointed out, Everton seem to be doing well with lower league players and local lads. In another of my posts, City have managed to bring their kids through, all of whom played in the same youth cup final, the same youth cup final they lost, so obviously our players were better. Villa seem to of found Agbongloahor. Ipswhich in the championship find quality youngsters every season.

I dont think it works like that though. Nigeria and Ghana have won and reached numerous Under 17 World Cup Finals. Damn Saudia Arabia even won in 1989. At such a young age results doesnt really indicate whether players will be able to play at the highest level.

There's 1 tried and tested method of seeing whether or not lads are good enough, give them a run in the side, and by run I mean 7/8 games, unlike two here and another 1 there, like Benitez did with Leto at the start of the year. He played in the Carling Cup and once or twice in Europe, haven't seen him even in the squad again. That doesn't prove if he can cut it or not, he may of just been nervous or having a bad game. Players at such a young age need to be given a sustained run in the side.

Again I'll refer to Agger, his 1st season (the back end of the 2005-06 season) he made a couple of errors, Birmingham at home is the one I can recall, but because he was playing reguarlly he was able to put it to the back of his mind and become the world class centre half we all admire today.

I agree. What happened to Leto? I do hope Rafa didnt just sign a bunch of youngsters last year and then hope a couple get through.

Leto has been performing for the reserves on a regular basis, but that doesn't tell you whether or not a player is capable of playing 1st team premiership football. I think these kids need to be given a go now, now that the title is out of reach again.

by **bigmick** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:43 am

Anyway you're both wrong and I'll tell you why

Often young players can improve out of all recognition when they get an opportunity, you can't ever tell for absolutely certain that a kid isn't going to make it. John is right in this sense and the history books are full of top players who were rejected then went on to make it, David Platt and Peter Beardsley for example and in this case, John is right.

That said, at a top club you can't just stick a bunch of kids in and hope they'll go off the improvement scale. You'll get relegated and in the end, none of them might make it. They have to show something first, and at a big club it has to be something pretty spectacular. In this sense, LFC is right.

A player like Agger is a good example. In the Brondby first team at a very young age and playing European football in all likelyhood long before he was ready. He's now learning his trade and is becoming a really good centre half. Would he have got a chance at Liverpool to become the player he now is were he here form the age of fifteen? NO. Should he get the chance were he here at 15? No again I'm afraid.

So although you're both wrong, you're kind of both right as well

What I do definately think, is that there are players in the Championship who are much superior to some of our squad players, and who would be worth a punt. Not just us, but all the bigger clubs seem reluctant to look under their noses for talent these days. Spurs and Chelsea are probably the exceptions to the rule, and it's high time we had a look at the odd non Premiership game ourselves.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:52 am

Mick, I'm not saying put every kid in, but one or two in an already strong side wouldn't hurt, plus they wouldn't have as much spotlight and media attention on them if they came into a side full of accomplished players. Take the right back situation (makes a change from me slaughtering Aurellio

) put young Darby in, with Carra beside him, he'll have more confidence in himself and his team because of a old campaigner like Carragher beside him. It can't hurt trust me.

Plus I like the fact you decided to put me right 1st

by **redtrader74** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:57 am

We can't afford to take any risks in the League, we need to finish in the top four. If the youngsters were ready, then they'd be playing.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:00 am

That's my whole point, you don't know if they're ready until they're given a go. Also let's be honest the players who "are ready" have got us into 5th and lucky to be there let me tell you. The kids can't do any worse. Plus one or two is all that is needed, not 6 or 7. But one or two with the rest of the regulars would benifit the side trust me.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:03 am

bigmick wrote:Anyway you're both wrong and I'll tell you why Often young players can improve out of all recognition when they get an opportunity, you can't ever tell for absolutely certain that a kid isn't going to make it. John is right in this sense and the history books are full of top players who were rejected then went on to make it, David Platt and Peter Beardsley for example and in this case, John is right.

That said, at a top club you can't just stick a bunch of kids in and hope they'll go off the improvement scale. You'll get relegated and in the end, none of them might make it. They have to show something first, and at a big club it has to be something pretty spectacular. In this sense, LFC is right.

B0llocks!

You give two examples of top players who were rejected, and then went on to make it, both of whom started their careers over 20 years ago.

Football has changed since then, most notably with the intoriduction of the FA charter for excellence in 1998, which established the academy system. Add to that societal changes such as an increase in obesity rates in part due to more little sh!ts playing computer games and listening to their 'i pod's' instead of playing sport, closures of parks, increase in convenience foods, greater development of supermarkets etc.

What you have is less people playing football, you don't get as often as you once did people playing in parks, or in streets. That's where kids develop technical skill, skills on the ball. Now, its all competition based, there isn't enough focus on technique and skill in age groups below 16 years.

Where you're wrong is when you say 'often' young players improve out of all recognition, nowadays that doesn't happen 'often'.

A player like Agger is a good example. In the Brondby first team at a very young age and playing European football in all likelyhood long before he was ready. He's now learning his trade and is becoming a really good centre half. Would he have got a chance at Liverpool to become the player he now is were he here form the age of fifteen? NO. Should he get the chance were he here at 15? No again I'm afraid.

He had the natural ability at the age of 15, and he probably would have got a chance here. You develop core ability at an early age, and I've no doubt that had he been in our reserves he would've proven that. Quality players rise to the top.

What I do definately think, is that there are players in the Championship who are much superior to some of our squad players, and who would be worth a punt. Not just us, but all the bigger clubs seem reluctant to look under their noses for talent these days. Spurs and Chelsea are probably the exceptions to the rule, and it's high time we had a look at the odd non Premiership game ourselves.

Some Championship players may well be better than some players in our squad, but that's not exactly hard though is it!

I can't think of many, if any, who'd be up to the required standard to play regularly. Who do you have in mind?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:16 am

Neil Mellor, can't do worse than Kuyt. Paul Robinson of West Brom could do better than Aurellio, as could Harding (ipswhich). Jonathon Walters from Ipswich is a better left winger than Kewell. Kevin Phillips even at his age would be a better choice to have coming off the bench than Kuyt or Voronin, as would Alan Lee (Ipswich), Mifsud (coventry), Ebanks-Blake (wolves) Keogh (wolves). Other than Lee and Phillips the rest are younger than 23, could all easily be great squad players, for a side of our ability, a natural goal-scorer like Ebanks-Blake or Mifsud would fit in perfectly. They'd appriciate they wouldn't be 1st choice, but as for an option on the bench they'd fill me with more confidence than Kuyt or Voronin.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:20 am

Absolutely, and that's exactly why Kuyt and Voronin aren't good enough for us.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:21 am

They're not good enough because they can't score. The lads I've mentioned CAN.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:24 am

In the Championship they CAN just as Kuyt was able to in Holland, they are however, NOT good enough for a team with title aspirations.

You need better players than those.

by **RedBlood** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:31 am

why try and buy lower league players?? why not just scout better players before we pay millions for them

i agree with giving or youngsters a chance but id wait until 4th spot is more concrete

insua, plesis, spearing, anderson, hammil, therfal, darby, el zahr, hobbs, nemeth, jose all have the ability to develope into very good prem players

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:34 am

How do you know these players aren't good enough until they're given a go?

I'm sure nobody thought Henry was good enough after his exploits in Italy. I remember hearing rave remarks about Kuyt and how he WAS GOING TO BE ABLE TO CUT IT AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF ENGLISH FOOTBALL. Nobody would of took a punt of Rush when we signed him, good thing we did though eh? Who in their right mind would of given a gangly 7 foot joke like Crouch a go, but he seems to be doing alright. You don't know unless you try. One of those lads I mentioned from the Championship could easily score more goals than Kuyt and Voronin have this season. Also I mentioned Phillips, who correct me if I'm wrong and when it comes to football knowledge I very rarely am wrong, wasn't he the top scorer in the Premiership once? So he's proven he can score at this level, because Sunderland took a chance on a non-league forward, like Phillips and it even earned him an England call up. The talent is there in lower league and to some extent non-league football, it's just managers would rather waste time and money on a no mark from abroad because they are "more technially gifted."

by **LFC2007** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:37 am

"You don't know until you try".

You could say that about any player who hasn't played at our level.

Kuyt was proven in Holland.

"Give him a try".

We gave him a try, he's not good enough.

The players you cite aren't good enough to play regularly at this level. Even as squad players the only one I'd take is Mifsud.

We can no longer afford to be taking punts, we need to get it nailed on. That means, players with real quality. Top quality players in the lower-leagues are very hard to come by.

Kevin Phillips?

Don't be silly.

by **RedBlood** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:41 am

LFC2007 wrote:"You don't know until you try".

You could say that about any player who hasn't played at our level.

Kuyt was proven in Holland.

"Give him a try".

We gave him a try, he's not good enough.

The players you cite aren't good enough to play regularly at this level. Even as squad players the only one I'd take is Mifsud.

We can no longer afford to be taking punts, we need to get it nailed on. That means, players with real quality.

Kevin Phillips?

Don't be silly.

kevin phillips loool that is a very bad suggestion

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:42 am

Kuyt was proven in Holland.

"Give him a try".

We gave him a try, he's not good enough.

His first season was good, since then he has just gone downhill.

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