Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:05 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I agree saint, it is all about the money, but even back then it's because we weren't buying the biggest names in the game. Ian Rush for example, he was a no mark from Chester, but he turns out to be our best ever forward. Emlyn Hughes (RIP) he played once for Blackpool before Shanks snapped them up. Pretty much like we did with Hobbs. But instead of putting them through their paces in the reserves, we're sending them out on loan nowadays, even Hobbs who's captained the reserves, insteading of putting faith in him, we take a punt on a more expensive and untried foriegner.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

If the quality doesn't exist locally or in our reserves, you have to look elsewhere. That's the reality of the modern day game.

So Kuyt is better than anything in our reserves?
Sissoko was better than every local lad?
Intandje is any better than Martin?
Skrtel is a million times better than Hobbs?
Voronin is doing something a local lad couldn't?
Aurellio is ten times the player Threllfall is?
Kewell has something that a youngster doesn't?

Don't be so fu.cking stupid, the reason these lads aren't given a real run in the side is because Benitez doesn't for whatever reason have faith in them. Dispite their successes. The talent is there, whether it's from a local lad like Spearing or from abroad like Nemeth. Probelm is there not given the chance. Nothing to do with quality because as I've already pointed out the players playing in place of these kids are doing a fantastic job.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:09 pm

s@int wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I agree saint, it is all about the money, but even back then it's because we weren't buying the biggest names in the game. Ian Rush for example, he was a no mark from Chester, but he turns out to be our best ever forward. Emlyn Hughes (RIP) he played once for Blackpool before Shanks snapped them up. Pretty much like we did with Hobbs. But instead of putting them through their paces in the reserves, we're sending them out on loan nowadays, even Hobbs who's captained the reserves, insteading of putting faith in him, we take a punt on a more expensive and untried foriegner.

I don't know if we even look in the lower divisions for players very much now, maybe its easier to scout for internationals abroad, than to scoure the lower reaches of the 3rd and fourth divisions for diamonds?

BTW Shanks TRIED to buy emlyn after 1 game , but it was the following season before he before he actually bought him, he played quite a few games for Blackpool, breaking Peter Osgoods leg in one of them. (seems strange to think they have both passed on now )

I know "Crazy Horse" wasn't bought after just one game, but we tried to sign him after that 1 game, that's the point i was making Mr Picky

Look at Everton's success, Jagielka, Lescott, Cahill, Vaughn, Hibbert and Osman. Either local lads or bought from a lower league side, now tell me that the talent doesn't exist LFC2007

by **LFC2007** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:45 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I agree saint, it is all about the money, but even back then it's because we weren't buying the biggest names in the game. Ian Rush for example, he was a no mark from Chester, but he turns out to be our best ever forward. Emlyn Hughes (RIP) he played once for Blackpool before Shanks snapped them up. Pretty much like we did with Hobbs. But instead of putting them through their paces in the reserves, we're sending them out on loan nowadays, even Hobbs who's captained the reserves, insteading of putting faith in him, we take a punt on a more expensive and untried foriegner.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

If the quality doesn't exist locally or in our reserves, you have to look elsewhere. That's the reality of the modern day game.

So Kuyt is better than anything in our reserves?
Sissoko was better than every local lad?
Intandje is any better than Martin?
Skrtel is a million times better than Hobbs?
Voronin is doing something a local lad couldn't?
Aurellio is ten times the player Threlfall is?
Kewell has something that a youngster doesn't?

Don't be so fu.cking stupid, the reason these lads aren't given a real run in the side is because Benitez doesn't for whatever reason have faith in them. Dispite their successes. The talent is there, whether it's from a local lad like Spearing or from abroad like Nemeth. Probelm is there not given the chance. Nothing to do with quality because as I've already pointed out the players playing in place of these kids are doing a fantastic job.

That wasn't my point.

However, of the players you mention I'd say that Voronin, Kuyt and Itandje are no better than what our reserves, or youth team might offer.

Sissoko was and is better than anything in our reserves.

Aurelio is and was better than Threllfall.

Kewell is and was a better option than anything we have in our reserves currently.

Time will tell if Skrtel is better than Hobbs, but just from seeing his touch and general play against Sunderland I'll confidently tell you now - in my view he's a better player than Hobbs.

One of the reasons our young lads aren't given much of a run out is because we too often find ourselves in a position where playing a young, inexperienced lad is too much of a risk.

In some cases, I'd have preferred to have seen a youngster given a place in the team or on the bench in place of a first team player. For example, one of our young forwards such as Nemeth in place of Voronin or Kuyt, or Insua in place of Riise or Aurelio.

Those instances should be limited though, in a large way down to the fact that there is a lack of talent, and that is the point.

In time, we'll see if the foreign youngsters brought to the club by Rafa are good enough to make the step up. If they are, they'll filter to the top, because they have the quality. If not, they'll drift away like many of our local lads have.

Our local youngsters have not been good enough in recent years, playing them in the first team more often will not remedy a lack of technical ability. I'll say it again, you cannot gain natural ability at a certain age, at the age of 15/16 you have a fair idea or not if that player has the ability to make it to the top. Only changing coaching methods, especially for those below the ages of 16, will lead to a long-term increase in the number of players who reach the first team.

The fact is, most of our young local lads are released between the ages of 18-21 because they simply don't have the ability. No amount of first team action will improve that core ability.

Some may well be better than a few of our first team players, but ultimately, it's a lack of talent due to incomplete training methods from an early age. It's of course not all about technical ability, much more is required to be a complete player, but whereas you cannot teach natural technical ability and skill, you can teach positional play and organisation.

Don't be so fu.cking stupid?

That coming from the fella who opened a thread preaching 'no snide remarks' or 'bickering'?

by **puroresu** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:55 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I agree saint, it is all about the money, but even back then it's because we weren't buying the biggest names in the game. Ian Rush for example, he was a no mark from Chester, but he turns out to be our best ever forward. Emlyn Hughes (RIP) he played once for Blackpool before Shanks snapped them up. Pretty much like we did with Hobbs. But instead of putting them through their paces in the reserves, we're sending them out on loan nowadays, even Hobbs who's captained the reserves, insteading of putting faith in him, we take a punt on a more expensive and untried foriegner.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

If the quality doesn't exist locally or in our reserves, you have to look elsewhere. That's the reality of the modern day game.

So Kuyt is better than anything in our reserves?
Sissoko was better than every local lad?
Intandje is any better than Martin?
Skrtel is a million times better than Hobbs?
Voronin is doing something a local lad couldn't?
Aurellio is ten times the player Threlfall is?
Kewell has something that a youngster doesn't?

Don't be so fu.cking stupid, the reason these lads aren't given a real run in the side is because Benitez doesn't for whatever reason have faith in them. Dispite their successes. The talent is there, whether it's from a local lad like Spearing or from abroad like Nemeth. Probelm is there not given the chance. Nothing to do with quality because as I've already pointed out the players playing in place of these kids are doing a fantastic job.

That wasn't my point.

However, of the players you mention I'd say that Voronin, Kuyt and Itandje are no better than what our reserves, or youth team might offer.

Sissoko was and is better than anything in our reserves.

Aurelio is and was better than Threllfall.

Kewell is and was a better option than anything we have in our reserves currently.

Time will tell if Skrtel is better than Hobbs, but just from seeing his touch and general play against Sunderland I'll confidently tell you now - in my view he's a better player than Hobbs.

One of the reasons our young lads aren't given much of a run out is because we too often find ourselves in a position where playing a young, inexperienced lad is too much of a risk.

In some cases, I'd have preferred to have seen a youngster given a place in the team or on the bench in place of a first team player. For example, one of our young forwards such as Nemeth in place of Voronin or Kuyt, or Insua in place of Riise or Aurelio.

Those instances should be limited though, in a large way down to the fact that there is a lack of talent, and that is the point.

In time, we'll see if the foreign youngsters brought to the club by Rafa are good enough to make the step up. If they are, they'll filter to the top, because they have the quality. If not, they'll drift away like many of our local lads have.

Our local youngsters have not been good enough in recent years, playing them in the first team more often will not remedy a lack of technical ability. I'll say it again, you cannot gain natural ability at a certain age, at the age of 15/16 you have a fair idea or not if that player has the ability to make it to the top. Only changing coaching methods, especially for those below the ages of 16, will lead to a long-term increase in the number of players who reach the first team.

The fact is, most of our young local lads are released between the ages of 18-21 because they simply don't have the ability. No amount of first team action will improve that core ability.

Some may well be better than a few of our first team players, but ultimately, it's a lack of talent due to incomplete training methods from an early age. It's of course not all about technical ability, much more is required to be a complete player, but whereas you cannot teach natural technical ability and skill, you can teach positional play and organisation.

Don't be so fu.cking stupid?

That coming from the fella who opened a thread preaching 'no snide remarks' or 'bickering'?

I have to agree. I dont believe Rafa keeps youngsters out of spite. Its more down to ability and the fact that kids breaking through is drying up all over the country is a sign that players just aint cutting the mustard. Its a problem which has been there for years yet the problem still has not been solved. Its v good winning FA youth cups but I'm afraid that isnt really a sign of whether a payer has what it takes to play at the very highest level. Rafa has his faults but I'm confident if there was players he thought could play now he would use them. Talented youngsters are priceless.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:55 pm

So Carragher is a gifted footballer? BOLLOX the fella is sh!t scared of a football and if he hadn't been given a go under Evans, would never of made over 500 games for the club. Dirk Kuyt plays, I don't particuarlly see his ball skills. Voronin, Kewell, Aurellio none have eexactly set the world alight with there "footballing skills".

As for telling you to stop being stupid isn't snide, nor is it bickering, it's a generalisation of how stupid you sound will all due respect. Trying to tell me that our kids aren't as good as who's being put in their place is nonesense. As for trying to tell me that a player can't learn quality from playing is nonesense also. You put Agger in the side at a tender age and look at what he's become, would he of learnt that being loaned out to Scunthorpe? I doubt it, he's learnt from Carra and Sami. Just like a young central midfielder i.e. Lucas will learn more from playing along side Gerrard week in week out than he would playing along side Sissoko. Also as for players need to be gifted before, then how come Aurellio plays, I don't see anything in him, nor do half the people on here, nor do the majority of the 40-45 thousand at Anfield week in week out. What's his "natural ability"? Is it to be absoloutely useless? Or maybe it's to try a 100 free kicks a game and get 50 off target, a further 45 over hit and go out for a throw in and the other 5 to hit the wall? Great ability eh?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:58 pm

Well as I've already pointed out, Everton seem to be doing well with lower league players and local lads. In another of my posts, City have managed to bring their kids through, all of whom played in the same youth cup final, the same youth cup final they lost, so obviously our players were better. Villa seem to of found Agbongloahor. Ipswhich in the championship find quality youngsters every season.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:59 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Look at Everton's success, Jagielka, Lescott, Cahill, Vaughn, Hibbert and Osman. Either local lads or bought from a lower league side, now tell me that the talent doesn't exist LFC2007

They're decent players, in my view though, only Cahill and possibly Lescott are good enough to play for us regularly if we want to make the step up in being title challengers, but Australia is hardly local.

Osman is a neat little player, but not top quality.

Jagielka is decent, nothing special, and not technically good enough to be in a title challenging team who plays Champions league football year in year out.

Hibbert isn't good enough.

Vaughan is still very young, he'd get a place on our bench at least right now, but if you want to challenge for the title, you need better players than him.

I'm not saying there aren't young players good enough in England to make the step up to the required level, there just aren't nearly enough.

There are those out there who are better than what we currently have, for example, I'd take Lescott ahead of any of our left-backs, but those examples are limited.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:05 am

1) I didn't say Cahill was local, I did however say, EITHER local lads or from LOWER LEAGUE SIDES, Cahill was brought from Millwall, a side at the time in the championship which is a division LOWER than the premiership, which is the division Everton and ourselves are in.

2) It isn't doing Everton any problems, as they're above us, got them into a cup semi final and they've progressed in Europe.

3) I'm not saying we go and buy the Everton squad, but look at how it's doing them. We bring a few local players in, and/or some from a lower league side, with the quality we already have in our strongest starting 11, we'd mount a serious challenge. It's the fact that instead of bringing a hungry lad who's looking to prove himself on we're bringing the likes of Kuyt and Aurellio on. People who don't care because they're still picking up between 40-70 grand a week.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:07 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:So Carragher is a gifted footballer? BOLLOX the fella is sh!t scared of a football and if he hadn't been given a go under Evans, would never of made over 500 games for the club. Dirk Kuyt plays, I don't particuarlly see his ball skills. Voronin, Kewell, Aurellio none have eexactly set the world alight with there "footballing skills".

As for telling you to stop being stupid isn't snide, nor is it bickering, it's a generalisation of how stupid you sound will all due respect. Trying to tell me that our kids aren't as good as who's being put in their place is nonesense. As for trying to tell me that a player can't learn quality from playing is nonesense also. You put Agger in the side at a tender age and look at what he's become, would he of learnt that being loaned out to Scunthorpe? I doubt it, he's learnt from Carra and Sami. Just like a young central midfielder i.e. Lucas will learn more from playing along side Gerrard week in week out than he would playing along side Sissoko. Also as for players need to be gifted before, then how come Aurellio plays, I don't see anything in him, nor do half the people on here, nor do the majority of the 40-45 thousand at Anfield week in week out. What's his "natural ability"? Is it to be absoloutely useless? Or maybe it's to try a 100 free kicks a game and get 50 off target, a further 45 over hit and go out for a throw in and the other 5 to hit the wall? Great ability eh?

As I said in my post;

"It's of course not all about technical ability, much more is required to be a complete player, but whereas you cannot teach natural technical ability and skill, you can teach positional play and organisation."

Playing at centre-half doesn't usually require a great deal of technical ability, you can usually get away with one of your centre-halves not being great on the ball if they are such a great defender in virtually every other way - Carragher is.

Agger had the ability, that's why he played, and that's why he stayed in the team.

I didn't say Aurelio had great ability - far from it, long-term we need a new left-back but Threlfall isn't an improvement on him in my view, Insua is a better bet.

If you think simply playing youngsters in the first team will make them gain ability that they don't have, and will never have, you are deluded.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:10 am

Fair enough, but we need to give Insua a go NOW. This season as far as the Premiership is well and truly over, so give the youngsters more of a run in the side, to get them ready for next season and for future years to come. Lucas and Babel in my eyes should be playing every Premiership game from this moment on, they're going to be huge players for us next year, give them 3 or 4 months in the side now, so they are ready for next year.

by **puroresu** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:11 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well as I've already pointed out, Everton seem to be doing well with lower league players and local lads. In another of my posts, City have managed to bring their kids through, all of whom played in the same youth cup final, the same youth cup final they lost, so obviously our players were better. Villa seem to of found Agbongloahor. Ipswhich in the championship find quality youngsters every season.

I dont think it works like that though. Nigeria and Ghana have won and reached numerous Under 17 World Cup Finals. Damn Saudia Arabia even won in 1989. At such a young age results doesnt really indicate whether players will be able to play at the highest level.

by **LFC2007** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:12 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:3) I'm not saying we go and buy the Everton squad, but look at how it's doing them. We bring a few local players in, and/or some from a lower league side, with the quality we already have in our strongest starting 11, we'd mount a serious challenge. It's the fact that instead of bringing a hungry lad who's looking to prove himself on we're bringing the likes of Kuyt and Aurellio on. People who don't care because they're still picking up between 40-70 grand a week.

And I'm saying, we don't have enough quality in our starting 11 to mount a title challenge, and we still wouldn't if we looked to the lower leagues or reserves. Players from lower-league sides who are good enough to play for us (above all else, attacking players) are very hard to come by, and whether or not we have the quality in our reserves remains to be seen.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:15 am

Reina, Finnan, Carra, Agger, Arbeloa, Pennant, Gerrard, any other of the 3 central mids, Babel, Torres, Crouch baring injuries or suspsension or any new signings, that at the start of next season will be as good as we can offer IMO. That should be capable of challenging, no question. Along with a bit of quality and HUNGER on the bench, we should be doing everything in our power to challenge.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:19 am

puroresu wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well as I've already pointed out, Everton seem to be doing well with lower league players and local lads. In another of my posts, City have managed to bring their kids through, all of whom played in the same youth cup final, the same youth cup final they lost, so obviously our players were better. Villa seem to of found Agbongloahor. Ipswhich in the championship find quality youngsters every season.

I dont think it works like that though. Nigeria and Ghana have won and reached numerous Under 17 World Cup Finals. Damn Saudia Arabia even won in 1989. At such a young age results doesnt really indicate whether players will be able to play at the highest level.

There's 1 tried and tested method of seeing whether or not lads are good enough, give them a run in the side, and by run I mean 7/8 games, unlike two here and another 1 there, like Benitez did with Leto at the start of the year. He played in the Carling Cup and once or twice in Europe, haven't seen him even in the squad again. That doesn't prove if he can cut it or not, he may of just been nervous or having a bad game. Players at such a young age need to be given a sustained run in the side.

Again I'll refer to Agger, his 1st season (the back end of the 2005-06 season) he made a couple of errors, Birmingham at home is the one I can recall, but because he was playing reguarlly he was able to put it to the back of his mind and become the world class centre half we all admire today.

by **puroresu** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:25 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
puroresu wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well as I've already pointed out, Everton seem to be doing well with lower league players and local lads. In another of my posts, City have managed to bring their kids through, all of whom played in the same youth cup final, the same youth cup final they lost, so obviously our players were better. Villa seem to of found Agbongloahor. Ipswhich in the championship find quality youngsters every season.

I dont think it works like that though. Nigeria and Ghana have won and reached numerous Under 17 World Cup Finals. Damn Saudia Arabia even won in 1989. At such a young age results doesnt really indicate whether players will be able to play at the highest level.

There's 1 tried and tested method of seeing whether or not lads are good enough, give them a run in the side, and by run I mean 7/8 games, unlike two here and another 1 there, like Benitez did with Leto at the start of the year. He played in the Carling Cup and once or twice in Europe, haven't seen him even in the squad again. That doesn't prove if he can cut it or not, he may of just been nervous or having a bad game. Players at such a young age need to be given a sustained run in the side.

Again I'll refer to Agger, his 1st season (the back end of the 2005-06 season) he made a couple of errors, Birmingham at home is the one I can recall, but because he was playing reguarlly he was able to put it to the back of his mind and become the world class centre half we all admire today.

I agree. What happened to Leto? I do hope Rafa didnt just sign a bunch of youngsters last year and then hope a couple get through.

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