Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:58 am

Kharhaz wrote:
s@int wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:I personally look at the Reading match as the turning point in our season as I just cannot for the life of me figure out what was in rafas mind during that match.

I'm pretty sure the upcoming Marseille match was foremost on his mind that day, especially given the likelihood that he had been informed about the Klinsmann approach by the owners and made to understand that failure to qualify for the knock-out round would cost him his job. Hicks has basically implied as much in his recent admissions.

But surely if he was well aware of the Klinsmann approach he would do everything he could to show he is irreplacable? No the position of the players he played in that match, and the fact he gave up trying to win it shows something more to me. If he knows that we are unbeaten in the league up until that point, if he knows all us supporters want the league more than anything, why give up in a match against reading?

If it was a choice between upsetting the supporters (who can't sack him) or the owners (who can sack him) who would you expect him to try to satisfy? A calculated gamble failed at Reading, but enabled him to retain his job by fielding a reasonably fresh side successfully against Marseille, qualifying for the knockout stages and the extra revenue, AND also against the mancs,with unfortunately less success.

Id like to think he sticks to his principles and put the supporters first. Many on here complained that we were on our way out of the champs league and many said "so what, concentrate on league" It would appear its not only rafa in two minds. For the record I would love rafa to stay but he really must find an assistant to share the burden. Get things stable on the playing field that way he has some weight to carry when hes trying to bargain with the board.

I think sometimes you have to put principles aside in the short term, for the longer term gain.

I strongly agree with you that an assistant to Rafa should be a priority, but as we are still (as far as I know ) paying Pako, maybe thats not possible till the end of the season?

I am not too sure how Paco's misadventure with Sociadad has affected things.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:13 am

LFC2007 wrote:
s@int wrote:
This business has to do with fan affinity and brand devotion. It doesn't necessarily have to do with winning."

1) I think even if we manage to qualify they will probably look at what he has achieved and the amount of money he has spent and think that they can get better value for money with someone else.

2) As for the above quote I think they are talking about winning games, not winning the the huge rewards that come from the CL. I think they showed this by their impatience in speaking to Klinsmann when we looked out of this years comp, while we still had everything to play for.

1) I don't think they're qualified to make that sort of judgement, but would they have the audacity to do so, I think so but it wouldn't be legitimate as far as I'm concerned.

2) What I'm saying is; in the short-term the point at which their financial planning for the future would be affected is if we didn't qualify for the UCL this season. Nothing else comes into the equation, and if winning games doesn't necessarily equate to having a successful business they can't use poor results this season (outside of qualifying for the UCL) as an excuse to sack Rafa on the basis that he is harming their investment (I have to stress - short-term).

To take it to its extreme, how unhappy would they be with a manager that got them into the CL every season but never really challenged for the title. Had the odd good cup run, BUT NEVER ASKED FOR MUCH in the way of transfer fees.

I think as long as the fans would put up with it H&G would be very happy. I don't think they see Rafa as much different to that, just that he wants more money for transfers. So then it becomes a question of would Rafa settle for that?

I don't think he would, and I think he would speak out, and we are back where we started

Unfortunately for Rafa and for us the fans they don't need to justify their actions or seek excuses. They have already lost their popularity so what else need they worry about in the short term.

To try to see it from their side. When they bought the club we had just won the FA cup, and finished third in the league. We had a relatively young but still quite experienced team and a successful manager.

They probably expected that we were a couple of signings away from challenging for the title, with no expensive rebuilding required. (I am sure those points will have been mentioned before they bought the club)

We reach and lose in the CL final, with the addition of only a loan player (Mascherano) and a cheap defender (Arbeloa). In the summer they may have expected perhaps minimal outgoings on players transfers. They probably thought they had done a great job buying Torres, and were upset and angry that they had to spend yet more money on other players.

Gritting their teeth they buy the other players, expecting that at least the title in their first full season as owners would be of some recompense for all their expenditure.

The next thing they know, we are almost out of the CL, our title challenge is on a knifes edge and Rafa is on the phone asking for more money!!

Just another way of looking at it.

by **tel** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:32 am

bigmick wrote:I'll try and keep it less than 1000 words. If the owners are still here by the Summer, I hope Rafa is too because he has a lovely knack of getting under their skin. If however we have changed ownership, I will be advocating a change of manager before next season barring a seeing of the light moment on team selection, squad building and game approach.

And what makes you think that your conclusions regarding Rafa on team selection, squad building and game approach are not also shared by the owners?

Do you think they're also shared by Parry? Because he's the one the owners listen to.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:48 am

tel wrote:And what makes you think that your conclusions regarding Rafa on team selection, squad building and game approach are not also shared by the owners?

Do you think they're also shared by Parry? Because he's the one the owners listen to.

I've absolutely no way of knowing what the owners think Tel to be perfectly honest, they could be ardent pro-rotationialists for all I know.

I was just offering my own view on it in the extremely unlikely event that anyone either gives a feck or is interested

by **tel** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:10 am

bigmick wrote:
tel wrote:And what makes you think that your conclusions regarding Rafa on team selection, squad building and game approach are not also shared by the owners?

Do you think they're also shared by Parry? Because he's the one the owners listen to.

I've absolutely no way of knowing what the owners think Tel to be perfectly honest, they could be ardent pro-rotationialists for all I know.

I was just offering my own view on it in the extremely unlikely event that anyone either gives a feck or is interested

Nicely diffused big man.

Regardless since I'm clearly interested in your view, would you be so kind as to speculate then?

Is it beyond the realm of all possibility that the owners, just like everyone else in the entire football world, thought Rafa was making strange team selections, was not focused on managing the football team and winning games, that he dug in, things went too far and the Yanks thought they may need a plan B and spoke to Klinsman?

You take me back to the everton game when he subbed Gerrard and I wanted Rafa slapped down from that very moment. He had the look of a man out of control, dug in and refusing to abide by any common sense. Torres scoring a hatrick in the carling cup mid week and not guarentees to start the next league game. WTF!??!!??

Rafa needs to know, as every manager in football needs to know, the club is bigger than the man. Just ask Jose Mourinho.

If its Rafa's way unconditionally, meaning living with his team selections and rotations, or the higway, he's now staring at the open door and not walking through it. And he'll be a better manager for it, and we'll be closer to winning the league as a result.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:32 am

Well there's no more ardent anti-rotationer on these boards than me Tel I wouldn't have thought. The Gerrard substitution against Everton was ill-judged in my opinion. Lucas caused the winning goal in the dying seconds admittedly, but only a curious oversight by the referee in truth allowed us to keep the three points. I actually think that this was the first time that we "settled for the result" and rested players actually during a game. I know we did it at Reading when all was lost which many people found incredible (not me funnily enough but anyway) but Everton was no tactical masterstroke as some painted it at the time, not in my view anyway.

The Torres "resting" in consecutive League games was done to death at the time (by me mostly) and it seems amazing in the light of what we know now, that we were a bit surprised that we failed to score in either game. This would of course particularly apply in the Pompey away game where we didn't play Gerrard either. As for Torres then being played on a wet and windy Wednesday night in the Carling Cup at Reading, well I think it was as near to an admission that we had made a bit of a nonsense of the whole thing as you are likely to get.

I think FWIW it's extremely likely bordering on a certainty that the two owners have got a couple of people advising them on football matters. It's probably the case as well that whoever that/those people are think that Rafa possibly, slightly, fractionally, just occasionally by a smidge, overdoes the rotation a bit as well. I say that only because if you did a straw poll of football followers in general/professionals past or present/football writers or pundits, my guess is that a majority would be of that view. How big that majority is of course is anybodies guess. I would have thought though that you'd have to search around for quite a long time to find somebody who thinks that our selection ideas this season have helped greatly. At best I would guess you might find somebody who feels that it hasn't made much difference as we aren't good enough anyway.

My feeling is that Rafa isn't going to change his methods enough to make a challenge for the League title a possibility. I think it is impossible to challenge for the League over here using his methods, and therefore come the end of the season I will be advocating a change.

by **nobybob** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:41 am

bigmick wrote:I'll try and keep it less than 1000 words. If the owners are still here by the Summer, I hope Rafa is too because he has a lovely knack of getting under their skin. If however we have changed ownership, I will be advocating a change of manager before next season barring a seeing of the light moment on team selection, squad building and game approach.

I think it is really unfair to judge Rafa on this season. Team building takes time you only need to look at fergie to realise that. In the time he has been here his achievements have been nothing short of fantastic if we take the league out of the equation. But lets face it last season we were missing a world class striker and that really hurt our challenge (or lack of ) for the league. Rafa has in my opinion definitely rectified that problem with the purchase of torres, and with the backing of the owners there may have been a couple more telling signings. This season has been a nightmare for Rafa i think the loss of pako had a big impact, several players have badly underachieved ,not naming names but we all know who they are. Then came the real biggy, any hopes Rafa had to buy and sell his way out of the situation he was in were swiftly kicked in the head when our American friends told Rafa he could not sell or buy even on a bossman. This rendered the poor man more or less impotent so to speak to add to this he new his job was on the line and he was being undermined by the yanks at every turn, because he"d had the ordacity to inform the fans of the restrictions he had been placed under. The pressure must have been immense and OK he has made a few mistakes at times, and he has plain been unlucky at others when we have dominated games only to succumb to some late sucker punch. These are just the things we know about imagine the goings on behind the scenes that we are not privy to. And now just to add salt to the wounds the voice of the Rafa out brigade fans is becoming louder, how quickly they forget the many fantastic nights this man has given us , nights that other teams fans would die for. Give the man a chance , in my book he more than deserves that!! :buttrock

by **nobybob** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:53 am

PS
I can kind of accept the yanks wanting to get rid of rafa they are at the end of the day ignorant of what Liverpool really is. OK they may have been to a few games they may have seen a few videos spoke to a few ex players etc but that's it.

But us the fans we have no excuse we have lived the history we have been there , we've felt the ecstasy and at times the pain. For most of us LFC is an integral part of our lives ,like family and friends , how could the yanks ever understand that???

Now some fans are turning on RAFA. One question who would you replace him with ?? who has done as much for us as RAFA?? who could give us that instant success we crave?? is there some one can give us all what we want with no mistakes, i seriously doubt it.
has Rafa made mistakes !most definitely, but he has something that maureen and the other names being spouted don't have THE MAN LOVES THE CLUB,THE FANS ,THE CITY, enough to put up with all the sh-t he has taken and guess what i love the man right back if only for that.

by **Ciggy** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:25 am

Oh feckinell

Liverpool City Council would like all this instability to open up renewed discussions about a shared stadium

by **tubby** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:45 am

Looks like the yanks may have hit a snag

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpo....0378930

Trouble hits Liverpool's plans for huge loan
Jan 22 2008 by Tony Barrett, Liverpool Echo

CONTROVERSIAL plans by the owners of Liverpool FC to restructure their debt have hit a problem.

City sources said today that the proposed £350m deal with the Royal Bank of Scotland could collapse, and DIC is waiting in the wings to make a move for the club should that happen.

Tom Hicks says the deal is on course, but speculation is growing about George Gillett's ability to secure the loan.

The source said: "There is no doubt that Hicks is ready to put up the money that the RBS has asked for. But the situation may not be the same with Gillett."

The situation is also clouded by the ongoing crisis in the US and Canadian stock markets.

Financial experts now believe a recession is almost inevitable.

With Hicks and Gillett having secured the initial loan to buy Liverpool against assets in American and Canada, their financial position is not as strong today as it was just 24 hours ago.

The source added: "This crash could not have come at a worse time for Hicks and Gillett, there is no question about that.

"Every bank and lending agency will be tightening its belt and RBS maybe more than most because they suffered big losses in yesterday's downturn.

"That means anyone seeking a major loan will have to prove to them that they have the necessary assets to secure it against and Gillett could have a hard time proving this is the case – and that's if he wants to prove it."

Tom Hicks recently promised to have financial restructuring – which would heap around £350m of debt onto the club – completed by the end of last week.

With that deadline now having passed, he is facing a race against time to get it done because the initial one-year loan the duo took out with the RBS to buy the club a year ago expires in a fortnight.

DIC is watching events unfold with interest and, should refinancing not take place, is ready to bid for the club.

Meanwhile, fans’ movement Reclaim The Kop is to ask supporters to boycott RBS and its products should the bank push ahead with the loan to Hicks and Gillett.

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:02 am

This is doin my head in, i wish DIC would actualy come out and make it known that they do wanna buy us off the yanks. Put us out of our misery and just say yes if they are willin to sell we will buy end of.

there should have been four chairs empty at Anfield on monday i dont know how Parry had the bare faced cheek to actualy take his seat that :censored:

is the cause if all of this i blame him anyway cause it was him who recommended to Moores that we go with these two. Should never be allowed anywhere near Anfield again imo

by **Redman in wales** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:04 am

unfortunately bav i think thats the same sort of article on pages 94 and 95 of this topic... but more recent articles suggest that it is going ahead.

by **Ciggy** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:08 am

I have one tiny bit of hope DIC arnt out the question yet.

But they would be totally crazy to pay way over the odds for us, they baulked at the price last year, its doubled now it just doesnt make sense.
The DIC story is not going away though so we have to have some hope.

Last year there was a list as long as your arm with potential investors wanting to buy us where are they now?

And why is no one else apart from DIC interested?

Moores should not have sold us to Hinge & Bracket in the first place, we all know he done it for the money its there in black & white why he did however when he cleary didnt need to is another question.

Hicks looks like the main problem in this investment I know Parry & Moores where talking to Gillett for a very long time, maybe if Gillett had brought in another partner and not one that shoots from the hip and had a clue about us we would not be in this situation right now.

No research seems to have gone into Tom Hicks background it looks like Moores took Gilletts word for it.

A few members of an internet forum such as this one and others are flabagasted at what this man has said and what he could potentially do to our club.

After all this fella thought Man Ham where are biggest rivals, and compared us to bleedin Weetabix.

So far Gillett has said fu.ck all, his son has done one and our club has been run by email for the past 8 months.

If they are to stay one or both have to move to the UK and be seen as active owners, the other clubs that have been taken over have their new owners present at most games.

But them two being the other side of the Atlantic has contributed to this shambolic mess that we are in.

Something has to give, one goes or they both go, Rafa goes, new owners come in.
This cannot go on any longer its about time they got off their big fat @rse and got over here and sorted this out once and for all.

by **Emerald Red** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:27 am

Boycott the RBS? How the f*ck is that possible? It's not like you're going to turn down a 100 quid note, now is it? Unless they make cuddly toys and action figures?

by **Ciggy** » Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:29 am

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/wineformymen/HicksTheEnd.gif

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