TAKEOVER COMPLETE - H & G Finally Jibbed!

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby lakes10 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:18 pm

Redman in wales wrote:from BBC:
Liverpool owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett believe they can complete a £350m refinancing deal by Thursday to secure their immediate Anfield future.

City observers said on Wednesday the deal was under threat, with Dubai International Capital (DIC) waiting in the wings for a possible takeover.

But BBC Sport has learned the pair are convinced the deal is imminent.

The package is expected to help the American duo repay money borrowed for their £218.9m takeover in March 2007.

It will also go towards signing new players in the summer, as well as to finance work on a redesigned new stadium in Stanley Park.  606: DEBATE
What do you think of what is going on at Liverpool?

Hicks and Gillett were the target of crowd demonstrations from Liverpool supporters unhappy with their regime during Monday's televised game against Aston Villa, with banners calling for DIC to mount a bid for control.

But Hicks, in particular, has remained defiant in the face of protests and insisted he had no intention of selling his 50% share in the club.

"I've not received any offer to purchase the club from DIC or anyone else, much less accepted any such offer," Hicks said on Monday.

It remains to be seen whether DIC, the investment arm of the Dubai government, will now pull out of a proposed bid to take control at Anfield, with the refinancing package unlikely to clear all the clouds of uncertainty over the club.

Some City sources believe the new deal, and its interest payments, will only be a financial "sticking plaster" and DIC will wait to see if there are further problems for Hicks and Gillett while maintaining an interest in buying Liverpool.

Liverpool decided to sell to Hicks and Gillett instead of DIC in March 2007 but the American businessmen in particular Hicks, have been criticised for the way they have run the club.

Hicks admitted to talks last November with Jurgen Klinsmann about the German taking over from Rafael Benitez as manager.

The owners and Benitez have also had a very public spat after the Spaniard criticised their transfer policy.

If Hicks has cemented his position via the loan, Benitez's long-term prospects look bleak.

i have just seen your post, it backs up what i just said in my post i have just made.

G&H get the money and then sell us.
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Postby Rush Job » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:34 pm

lakes10 wrote:
Rush Job wrote:
lakes10 wrote:i dont give a :censored: what they do with the money they make from the club as long as we always get what we need out of them.

And have they? We dont even get a bit of honesty, do you really think Rafa's going to get the money to compete with the top three? we will be lucky to compete with the like's of city and villa. If this situation isnt sorted soon ive a very real fear we'll not only lose pace with the top but also the chasing pack who are all being backed by their owners. Wake up Lakes, your the first to stick the boot into Rafa, yet you see no fault with the owners? even though SG has admited its been effecting them.

i think you should look at some of my other posts on here before saying that i am sticking up for the Yanks.
the yanks can :censored: off.
I am talking about the real world mate and not about the things we would like to happen.

And you should maybe take a look at my post mate i only asked a question!
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Postby lakes10 » Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:54 pm

Rush Job wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
Rush Job wrote:
lakes10 wrote:i dont give a :censored: what they do with the money they make from the club as long as we always get what we need out of them.

And have they? We dont even get a bit of honesty, do you really think Rafa's going to get the money to compete with the top three? we will be lucky to compete with the like's of city and villa. If this situation isnt sorted soon ive a very real fear we'll not only lose pace with the top but also the chasing pack who are all being backed by their owners. Wake up Lakes, your the first to stick the boot into Rafa, yet you see no fault with the owners? even though SG has admited its been effecting them.

i think you should look at some of my other posts on here before saying that i am sticking up for the Yanks.
the yanks can :censored: off.
I am talking about the real world mate and not about the things we would like to happen.

And you should maybe take a look at my post mate i only asked a question!

Wake up Lakes, your the first to stick the boot into Rafa, yet you see no fault with the owners? even though SG has admited its been effecting them


this was the bit i put the reply to.
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Postby hishhish » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:50 am

Well, I am really confused. Hick seems adamant that he is not selling... All the sites say there are discussions to sell. I'm sorry but I personally don't buy it.
I think a month from now, we will still be owned by the yanks, DIC will be just a distant memory. I think Hicks has just dug his heels in more. Although I cannot see him supporting rafa or any other manager for that matter.
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Postby tel » Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:56 am

We had problems well before the Yank owners were not acting in the best interests of the club in the past week.

We were out of the race for the league well before Hicks admitted he spoke to Klinsman.

Facts are that if had won games we'd drawn at home against Spurs, Birmingham and Wigan and not fielded a 2nd string side against Reading, we'd be up there challenging, everyone would be happy, and all this speculation about who owns the club and whether they care about it would never have happened.

We have bought great players in Torres and Babel to top up and stengthen our goal scoring. We should have taken the next step this season by any account.

Rafa can blame the owners not giving him more money, but not many clubs chelanging for the league topped up in January (Chelsea, Utd or Arsenal). Fact is we have not played good football, we have dropped easy points, and rafa brought this on himself with his rotation and substitutions. Torres not starting games, Gerrard being subbed in key games because he was playing with too much emotion, and signing Babel for 12m, and tunring him into Diouf or Cisse by making him a sub and never playing him in his striker position.

If Rafa sold Kuyt, Kewell, Pennant, Carson and Aurelio, he'd have enough money to strengthen further in January. Crouch along would bring in 10m.

Not being given money for new players is an excuse for bad performances and retaining bad players that are not good enough for this club
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Postby Bad Bob » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:05 am

tel wrote:We had problems well before the Yank owners were not acting in the best interests of the club in the past week.

We were out of the race for the league well before Hicks admitted he spoke to Klinsman.

Facts are that if had won games we'd drawn at home against Spurs, Birmingham and Wigan and not fielded a 2nd string side against Reading, we'd be up there challenging, everyone would be happy, and all this speculation about who owns the club and whether they care about it would never have happened.

We have bought great players in Torres and Babel to top up and stengthen our goal scoring. We should have taken the next step this season by any account.

Rafa can blame the owners not giving him more money, but not many clubs chelanging for the league topped up in January (Chelsea, Utd or Arsenal). Fact is we have not played good football, we have dropped easy points, and rafa brought this on himself with his rotation and substitutions. Torres not starting games, Gerrard being subbed in key games because he was playing with too much emotion, and signing Babel for 12m, and tunring him into Diouf or Cisse by making him a sub and never playing him in his striker position.

If Rafa sold Kuyt, Kewell, Pennant, Carson and Aurelio, he'd have enough money to strengthen further in January. Crouch along would bring in 10m.

Not being given money for new players is an excuse for bad performances and retaining bad players that are not good enough for this club

Isn't it possible that the owners are not permitting Rafa to sell anyone?  That's certainly been implied from both sides over the last month and a bit.  As for some of the performances, no question they have been below standard but, knowing what we know now about affairs behind the scenes, it's difficult to judge.  The Reading game is a case in point.  We know now that the owners had approached Klinsmann at that point and had told Rafa to stick with coaching and training.  It's entirely possible that they had let him know about their approach to Klinsmann and told him to qualify for the knockout stages in Europe or else.  What effect might that have had on Rafa's decision making before and during the Reading match?

I'm not trying to lay all of our indifferent form at the feet of the Yanks this term but the more we learn about the way they've been operating behind the scenes the more I'm convinced that everyone associated with our play on the pitch--players and coaching staff alike--has been distracted for far longer than just the past week or so.
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Postby redtrader74 » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:19 am

Big Niall wrote:
nobybob wrote:I think we are all agreed to yanks need to go ( except maybe BIG Niall) who i suspect is probably an illegitimate son of HICKS , even his name is a clue these yanks all love to put BIG before their name for some reason.

I'm waiting for inheritance, and then when I own the club I'll pick myself as a player. I am tall,slow and a poor finisher so Rafa will play me up front beside torres. :D

and look like a gargoyle.....?? :p
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Postby tel » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:26 am

Bad Bob wrote:
tel wrote:We had problems well before the Yank owners were not acting in the best interests of the club in the past week.

We were out of the race for the league well before Hicks admitted he spoke to Klinsman.

Facts are that if had won games we'd drawn at home against Spurs, Birmingham and Wigan and not fielded a 2nd string side against Reading, we'd be up there challenging, everyone would be happy, and all this speculation about who owns the club and whether they care about it would never have happened.

We have bought great players in Torres and Babel to top up and stengthen our goal scoring. We should have taken the next step this season by any account.

Rafa can blame the owners not giving him more money, but not many clubs chelanging for the league topped up in January (Chelsea, Utd or Arsenal). Fact is we have not played good football, we have dropped easy points, and rafa brought this on himself with his rotation and substitutions. Torres not starting games, Gerrard being subbed in key games because he was playing with too much emotion, and signing Babel for 12m, and tunring him into Diouf or Cisse by making him a sub and never playing him in his striker position.

If Rafa sold Kuyt, Kewell, Pennant, Carson and Aurelio, he'd have enough money to strengthen further in January. Crouch along would bring in 10m.

Not being given money for new players is an excuse for bad performances and retaining bad players that are not good enough for this club

Isn't it possible that the owners are not permitting Rafa to sell anyone?  That's certainly been implied from both sides over the last month and a bit.  As for some of the performances, no question they have been below standard but, knowing what we know now about affairs behind the scenes, it's difficult to judge.  The Reading game is a case in point.  We know now that the owners had approached Klinsmann at that point and had told Rafa to stick with coaching and training.  It's entirely possible that they had let him know about their approach to Klinsmann and told him to qualify for the knockout stages in Europe or else.  What effect might that have had on Rafa's decision making before and during the Reading match?

I'm not trying to lay all of our indifferent form at the feet of the Yanks this term but the more we learn about the way they've been operating behind the scenes the more I'm convinced that everyone associated with our play on the pitch--players and coaching staff alike--has been distracted for far longer than just the past week or so.

That's entirely possible. More likely that Rafa thought there was more money available beyond what he bought with pre-season, and then he was told lets see how you go first with what we've already given you, he felt misled.

Would he have speculated 12m on young Babel (due to age not talent) if he knew there was no more money coming?

I cant see under any scenario why rafa wouldnt be allowed to sell players.

As far as I'm concerned, Rafa has been misled, but he was naive to think he could spend 26m on Torres, 7m on Benyaoun and 12 on Babel and then lose at home to Marseille and draw with Birmingham and get away with it.

Maybe if we hadnt given away 9 points and he told the owners if he had 2 more players in January we'd win the league for sure, things would have been very different. If he got a no in such a scenario, he would have every reason to push the defcon 4 button and launch nuclear war.

As far as i'm concerned I hate the Yanks for miselading the club, but its Parry's job to make sure they deliver on their promises. He chose them.

But its Rafa's job to ensure the team is challenging, and this team with the addition of Torres should be challenging, not going backwards.

Parry, Rafa and the Yanks are all to blame for this disgrace to the good name of the LFC and its history and traditions.
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Postby redtrader74 » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:31 am

Bad Bob wrote:
tel wrote:We had problems well before the Yank owners were not acting in the best interests of the club in the past week.

We were out of the race for the league well before Hicks admitted he spoke to Klinsman.

Facts are that if had won games we'd drawn at home against Spurs, Birmingham and Wigan and not fielded a 2nd string side against Reading, we'd be up there challenging, everyone would be happy, and all this speculation about who owns the club and whether they care about it would never have happened.

We have bought great players in Torres and Babel to top up and stengthen our goal scoring. We should have taken the next step this season by any account.

Rafa can blame the owners not giving him more money, but not many clubs chelanging for the league topped up in January (Chelsea, Utd or Arsenal). Fact is we have not played good football, we have dropped easy points, and rafa brought this on himself with his rotation and substitutions. Torres not starting games, Gerrard being subbed in key games because he was playing with too much emotion, and signing Babel for 12m, and tunring him into Diouf or Cisse by making him a sub and never playing him in his striker position.

If Rafa sold Kuyt, Kewell, Pennant, Carson and Aurelio, he'd have enough money to strengthen further in January. Crouch along would bring in 10m.

Not being given money for new players is an excuse for bad performances and retaining bad players that are not good enough for this club

Isn't it possible that the owners are not permitting Rafa to sell anyone?  That's certainly been implied from both sides over the last month and a bit.  As for some of the performances, no question they have been below standard but, knowing what we know now about affairs behind the scenes, it's difficult to judge.  The Reading game is a case in point.  We know now that the owners had approached Klinsmann at that point and had told Rafa to stick with coaching and training.  It's entirely possible that they had let him know about their approach to Klinsmann and told him to qualify for the knockout stages in Europe or else.  What effect might that have had on Rafa's decision making before and during the Reading match?

I'm not trying to lay all of our indifferent form at the feet of the Yanks this term but the more we learn about the way they've been operating behind the scenes the more I'm convinced that everyone associated with our play on the pitch--players and coaching staff alike--has been distracted for far longer than just the past week or so.

Although clearly plausible Bob and identified by Gerrard himself, those that can not see beyond rotation will no doubt berate you with a 1000 words! that you are clinging to that belief because we are so far off the pace. I'm sure it can be manipulated to blame even the current misery with the owners on Rafa. :shifty
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Postby Bad Bob » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:46 am

I know how this whole 'blame the owners' thing must look to some who want Rafa out--a convenient excuse for those of us who support Rafa to try and absolve him of all responsibility for a poor season so far.  For the die-hard Rafa-outers, this will never be more than another excuse and I doubt I'll convince them to change their minds about Benitez.  But, I know there are others who have been critical of Rafa so far this season but have not yet made up their minds.  To them I ask, do you think this season is really a fair reflection of Rafa's managerial skills?  He's been openly at odds with the owners for a couple months now, which suggests that he's had private struggles with them before that.  In such a backroom climate, can we honestly believe we're getting the best out of our manager or indeed, out of the players?  For me, I find it very hard to judge Rafa on the basis of this season, knowing what we know now about the obstacles he's faced from the Yanks.

Personally, I think one of three things will happen.  In one scenario, the Yanks will stay and that'll mean the end of Rafa as Liverpool manager come May (if not sooner).  In a second scenario, DIC comes in and decides to replace Rafa at the end of the season.  In the final scenario, DIC come in and look to give Rafa another crack at the whip next season.  Personally, I'm in total support of the latter scenario because with the presumed boardroom stability and financial backing that DIC would bring, we might actually get to see what Benitez can accomplish with this club.  If the title challenge goes t!ts up during a season where he doesn't have the off-field distractions, I'll be more than prepared to join the ranks of the Rafa-outers.
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Postby account deleted by request » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:46 am

Liverpool now want their saviours to walk on alone
Less than a year after being welcomed with open arms, the club’s American owners are finding themselves the target for hostility
Oliver Kay
“Let our relationship and our performance speak for itself. We’re either going to satisfy you or disappoint you” – George Gillett Jr, Liverpool co-chairman

Say what you like about the people of Merseyside, but they are welcoming. If the time-worn image is of an inward-looking city, hostile to outsiders, it does not tally with the experience of the two American tycoons who bought Liverpool last February and, to their surprise and apparent humility, were instantly cast as saviours of what they called “this wonderful, storied franchise”. In the weeks that followed their arrival, the odd star-spangled banner was spotted on the Kop. On their regular visits to Merseyside, they were told to “keep up the good work”.

They were even applauded as they took their seats at the Champions League final in Athens. Liverpool had had time to get used to the idea of foreign ownership and Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr seemed to have their hearts in the right place. But over the course of a turbulent 12 months, warmth has given way to outright hostility. During the 2-2 draw at home to Aston Villa on Monday night, there were angry demonstrations and chants of “Get out of our club”.

Satisfied or disappointed? Emotions at Anfield run rather deeper than that at present. Now it is Dubai International Capital (DIC), gazumped by Hicks and Gillett a year ago, which is a would-be saviour. Most supporters are praying for a swift resolution — hopes that could sink or soar over the coming days, depending on whether Hicks succeeds or fails to stabilise his troubled regime with a £350 million refinancing plan — and for the Americans to ride off into the sunset, consigned to the briefest, if one of the most chaotic, chapters in the history of English football’s most successful club.


“It is about reaching the right conclusion for the next 100 years. You only sell the family silver once” — Rick Parry, Liverpool chief executive

There had been no shortage of potential buyers for Liverpool. Hicks and Gillett were unlikely winners from a field that, as well as DIC, included Robert Kraft, a far wealthier American, Steve Morgan, the Merseyside-born property tycoon, Thaksin Shinawatra, who is now in charge of Manchester City, a Belfast-based multimillionaire, a pair of Norwegian chancers and even a couple of Hollywood-based movie moguls eager to get back to their Liverpudlian roots.

In December 2006, the race to own Liverpool seemed to be over as David Moores, the chairman, accepted DIC’s £80 million offer for his 51.6 per cent stake in the club, but, as the due diligence dragged on beyond Christmas into late January, doubts emerged about whether the deal would go ahead. As tensions grew, with DIC dithering and the club fretting as deadlines loomed over funding for their proposed new stadium, there was a breakdown in communication and DIC angrily pulled the plug on negotiations.

Almost by default, Gillett and Hicks — the latter having arrived on the scene at the last minute, seemingly as a silent partner — had secured ownership of Liverpool. Moores made more from the deal, £89.8 million, than he would have done had he sold to DIC, but he, Parry and their fellow directors agreed that Liverpool had found the “custodians” — note, not owners — that they were looking for.

“They don’t care about Rafa. They don’t care about fans. Liverpool Football Club is in the wrong hands” — the Kop

The first cracks appeared in the summer. Shortly after Rafael Benítez challenged them to get to work in the transfer market, there were rumours, initially denied, that the co-chairmen were clashing behind the scenes. It also became clear that their transfer plans did not match those of Benítez, whose net spending in the summer was a little less than £25 million, with the club-record purchase of Fernando Torres largely offset by sales.

“In asset terms, they might — might — be billionaires,” one source said, “but football clubs require cash. They don’t have anything like the resources to invest in it. And they know it.”

Then there was the fiasco over the new stadium. In July, amid fanfare, they unveiled their spectacular new plans for the facility in Stanley Park. By mid-December, those plans had been dropped because the projected cost had spiralled beyond £400 million. “It was ridiculous,” the source continued. “Anyone could see just looking at the plans that it wasn’t going to work. There was too much bent steel for one thing. Considering the lack of finance in place, it was simply unfundable.”

Behind the scenes, relations between Benítez and the owners were becoming fraught, with Foster Gillett, son of George, struggling to ease communication, not least because of his frequent absences from his Merseyside office. In mid-November, after a terse exchange of e-mails, the manager was told by Hicks to “quit talking and focus on preparing the team”.

That same week, Hicks and Gillett tried to line up Jürgen Klinsmann, the former Germany coach, as “an insurance option” against Benítez’s sudden departure to Real Madrid or, more likely, against his dismissal. In the eyes of Liverpool’s supporters, this was an act of betrayal.

“We’re a very very modest club. We don’t talk. We don’t boast. But we’re very professional” — Sir John Smith, Liverpool chairman 1973-90

There is something that they call “The Liverpool Way”. It is an ethos, an unwritten constitution based on principles such as humility, modesty and continuity. From the boardroom to the boot room, there was a shared belief that Liverpool were a club that should be seen and not heard. Sir John Smith and Peter Robinson would keep the club ticking over, while Bob Paisley and, later, Joe Fagan and Kenny Dalglish would get on quietly with the business of winning trophies.

Hicks comes from a different culture. When Benítez antagonised him in November, he rushed out statements that served only to expose the extent of the rift. While he may have had a point in saying it was “time for Rafa to quit talking”, that point was lost amid the shock at seeing a Liverpool chairman undermining the manager in this way.

That shock was surpassed only when Hicks confirmed that he and Gillett had held talks with Klinsmann. It may have been true, but why admit it rather than leave it in the realms of “speculation”?

For the past three months, Hicks has regularly proclaimed that he and Gillett will be announcing their refinancing deal with Royal Bank of Scotland “by the end of the week”. The end of the week always comes and goes with no deal in place. With pressure from the bank mounting, we are assured that this week will be different. We shall see.

The relationship between Liverpool and the club’s owners is at breaking point. Hicks firmly intends to proceed with the refinancing plan, despite growing uncertainty in the global financial markets, but that, according to one source, will merely postpone a sale to DIC. “It won’t solve the problems,” the source said. “It’s not about putting the right financial structure in place for Liverpool. It’s about giving them breathing space, so they can sell it on.”

For now, Hicks and Gillett struggle on, but, in stark contrast to the message from the club’s anthem and to the warm welcome they received less than a year ago, they walk very much alone.
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Postby holylamb2006 » Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:46 am

Maybe if we say that Liverpool are in war with Manchester United ...

They might give us money ?? :D
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Postby holylamb2006 » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:01 am

And by the way Saint thats a damn good read :) thanks
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Postby Kharhaz » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:14 am

holylamb2006 wrote:And by the way Saint thats a damn good read :) thanks

Interesting read but always with the "one source said" and "this source said". WE WANT NAMES ! Lets face it, any supporter could bitch about the owners to the media and would be known as a source.
Bill Shankly: “I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I’d break my wife’s legs if I played against her, but I’d never cheat her.”
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Postby LFC2007 » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:28 am

Bad Bob wrote:Personally, I think one of three things will happen.  In one scenario, the Yanks will stay and that'll mean the end of Rafa as Liverpool manager come May (if not sooner).  In a second scenario, DIC comes in and decides to replace Rafa at the end of the season.  In the final scenario, DIC come in and look to give Rafa another crack at the whip next season.  Personally, I'm in total support of the latter scenario because with the presumed boardroom stability and financial backing that DIC would bring, we might actually get to see what Benitez can accomplish with this club.  If the title challenge goes t!ts up during a season where he doesn't have the off-field distractions, I'll be more than prepared to join the ranks of the Rafa-outers.

How likely do you think it is that DIC will takeover?, and when do you think they would be more likely to takoever, now or in the summer?

If they took over in the summer, do you think Rafa would be gone by then?, if so do you think it would be of his own accord i.e. a resignation?

My view is that Rafa will not walk, every recent indication points to him persisting in the job - his love for the club, he's settled in Liverpool, his signings to whom he owes a duty of responsibility having brought them here, his comments that reinforce this, players' comments - Torres' for example. In the current climate, I just can't for the life of me see Hicks and Gillett getting rid of Rafa any time soon. They'd probably get lynched, I think they're now aware of this hostility. If our performances were so poor that we ultimately finished outside the top four (god forbid), they have a ready made excuse to sack him. I think we will finish in the top four though, and have a run in one of the cups. In which case, what happens next?

I don't think Rafa would leave, and I don't think he'd be sacked.
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