Liverpool FC Forum

holylamb2006 wrote:Tis a weird situation going on here ....

Dnt kno y there is so much pressure on Rafa ...

Unless the 2 owners talk with each other and wanted to get another manager such as mourinho thats y they are puttin alot of pressure on benitez to make him look bad and suddenly sack him ...

i dunno thats wat i think .....

can anyone translate this into English please?

peewee wrote:

holylamb2006 wrote:Tis a weird situation going on here ....

Dnt kno y there is so much pressure on Rafa ...

Unless the 2 owners talk with each other and wanted to get another manager such as mourinho thats y they are puttin alot of pressure on benitez to make him look bad and suddenly sack him ...

i dunno thats wat i think .....

can anyone translate this into English please?

s@int wrote:Sven talking to Thaksin Shinawatra " I think it will take about £100million to get a title winning team."
Thaksin Shinawatra "I don't like to talk figures Sven, but here's £150million, win me a cup as well! "

  , eben man city are gonna spend more then us , dam those stingy americans , now i really wished that the shiek had bought us

s@int wrote:Facts For a Time Capsule

The distorting lens of the past is one of the most deceptive things in football; it’s easy to forget, with the foreshortening of time, how long it took rival managers to build their empires.

I thought it would be advisable to write an article before the United game, that would still apply after it –– win, lose or draw.

Because whatever happens, it’s just one game. A very important game, which will set some kind of marker and invoke a lot of passion and pride, but not a cup final, and not a title decider. And some things
in football are not fundamentally changed by the result of one game in the first half of the season. The aim was to write something not distorted by either victory or defeat, particularly with the
manager’s job said to still be in the balance.

Alex Ferguson and Arsene Wenger, English football’s two outstanding managers since Bob Paisley’s retirement, remain in place for people to use as examples of Benítez’s “failure”, while there have also been
some bizarrely unfavourable comparisons with Gérard Houllier (the most recent being by Ian Ridley of the Mail, on Sky’s Sunday Supplement; I know Ridley is a pal of Houllier’s, but what had he been smoking? HE
said “Houllier was sacked for finishing 15 points behind Arsenal”, when it was the small matter of 30 points).

But since Mourinho departed*, Rafa is compared most with two heavily-established managers, despite still being in the initial stages of his time regarding building an empire at Liverpool. Plenty has changed in
the last two decades, but it is unfair to judge Benítez against men who’ve sorted every last details at their clubs over a decade or two, rather than when they were at the same stage of their tenures.

(*Mourinho is perhaps the only modern exception. But he didn’t really build an empire: merely breezed in, spent megabucks on an already expensive squad, taking it up to around the £300m mark, and blitzed his way to two titles. He did a great job, but it wasn’t a comparable situation to that at Liverpool. Avram Grant has done well so far, but he’s not had to build an empire, merely take control of someone else’s.)

Anyone who’s read my pieces or books knows that I’m a big fan of Arsene Wenger. And I have a grudging respect for Alex Ferguson that, even when typing, I note through gritted teeth. But the media have locked in on some lazy stereotypes: Benítez, with his crazy rotation and barmy zonal marking (which just happens to lead to hardly any set-piece goals being conceded each season, but let’s ignore that), purveys purely pragmatic football, while his tactics work only in European games.

Football is a subjective issue, but let’s concentrate on some facts:


Alex Ferguson’s first five seasons, after inheriting a team which
had just finished 4th, were as follows: 11th*, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th.
Rafa Benítez also inherited a team that had finished 4th, albeit a
whopping 30 points behind the champions (compared with the United of
’86, who were just 12 points behind Dalglish’s champions), but
subsequently finished 5th, 3rd and 3rd. (*In Ferguson’s defence, that
first 11th-place finish came after he took charge in November 1986,
roughly a third of the way into the season.)

So in his first five seasons, Ferguson took United so far
backwards it’s almost farcical. Perhaps part of this was essential ––
the idea of one step backwards, two steps forward. But those first
years were five steps backwards to only one step forward. Manchester
United had spent the previous five seasons in the top four before he
arrived. In the five seasons following his arrival, they averaged 9th
in the table. In the five years before Ferguson was appointed, United
were averaging 75 points a season. In the five years after, they
averaged an abysmal 59 –– just one point more than in Benítez’s
Premier League annus horribilis, in year one.

Alex Ferguson won nothing until the end of his fourth season,
when he landed an FA Cup. He followed this with a Cup Winners’ Cup in
his fifth season. Benítez won a European Cup in his first season and
an FA Cup in his second. He also made two other cup finals in his
first three years, including a second in the Champions League.

In 1989, Ferguson broke the transfer record on Gary Pallister,
spending £2.3m. Steve Bruce and Paul Ince were also fairly expensive
signings around that time, while in 1988 the Red Devils paid what was
then a club record £1.8m to buy back Mark Hughes. Ferguson’s capture
of Roy Keane, at £3.75m in 1992, also broke the British transfer
record. These fees may not seem stellar now, but they were the £30m
deals of their day –– more expensive, by current terms, than Fernando
Torres, who is more than £10m below the current British record, with
roughly a dozen other players (including Ferguson purchases Rooney,
Ferdinand and Veron) also costing significantly more than the Spanish
striker. It took Ferguson four years after this initial heavy
expenditure, and with a lot more further investment, to win the league
title –– his first ‘major’ honour (league titles and European Cups
obviously being the two major ones big clubs look to win). The season
when Ferguson signed Pallister and Ince, United finished in 13th
place, with a paltry 48 points. 

It took Ferguson between six and nine years to start reaping the
dividends of his revamped youth system. The emergence of Giggs in 1991
was the one early bonus, but Scholes, Butt, Beckham Neville and
Neville first appeared between 1992 and 1995. Even now, in 2007, his
team relies on three of those players. In those terms, Benítez would
be relying on Gérard Houllier’s youth recruitments; alas, none proved
good enough.

Only now, after 11 years in charge, is Arsene Wenger enjoying
more than the occasional bud blossoming from his famed youth set-up,
with half a team constructed from canny scouting work commenced many
years ago. During his first eight years, the only youngsters to be
regulars were Vieira, Anelka and, from 2000 onwards, Ashley Cole. Kolo
Toure arrived aged 20 in Wenger’s sixth season, Fabregas aged 16 in
his eighth.

By contrast, Benítez only began his youth procurement policy in
earnest in 2005; there wasn’t time in 2004, when he arrived. With many
of the key players turning out to be Benítez’s signings (Hobbs,
Anderson, Antwi, Roque, Hansen, Ajdarevic), Liverpool won the two most
recent FA Youth Cups.

Wenger, meanwhile, has spent far more money on certain players
than he’s given credit (debit?) for. For instance, look at his major
buys, costing £8m* or more: Jeffers (£8m), Hleb (£10m), Wiltord
(£13m), Reyes (deal rising to £17m), Van Bronkhurst (£8.5m), Henry
(£10.5m), Walcott (fee rising to £12m), da Silva (reportedly between
£8m-£16.5m). Not a high amount for 11 years, but not a low one,
either. (*Prices ‘factually’ correct based on the most reliable
media sources. Bear in mind that, because of football’s almost ten-
fold inflation since 1992, and two-fold inflation since the late ‘90s,
£8m spent in 1999 is closer to £15m in 2007. £8m in 1999 was roughly
half the transfer record in England, while £15m is half the current
one.) Benítez has only thus far signed four players for £8m or more:
Kuyt (£9.5m), Alonso (£10.5m), Babel (£11.5m) and Torres (£20m). And
while Kuyt has slightly disappointed when it comes to his goal return,
there is not a flop like Jeffers in sight.

If we’re talking about net spend due to recouping money,
then Wenger has done extremely well. But of course, Benítez, who has
also recouped a fair amount of money (his net spend this summer was
only around £25m), is in a disadvantaged position when it comes to
comparing transfers this way, as a) after just three years, he’s still
building his first true team, not dismantling it; b) none of his best
players or main signings have asked to leave, unlike Anelka,
Overmars, Petit, Vieira, Ashley Cole and Henry, whose sales netted
Wenger almost all of his transfer income. Some of those players
leaving hindered Arsenal, but of course gave Wenger a lot of money to
reinvest, while others, like Henry and Vieira, left when approaching
their sell-by dates.

If Benítez wished to sell Gerrard, Carragher, Torres, Reina,
Agger, Alonso and Babel (or was forced to by transfer requests,
neither of which is the case), he could raise £120m and be trading at
a big profit; thankfully that’s not his aim. Hopefully they’ll all
leave for a small fee, on account of old age, in a decade’s time, when
success has given them TLF (Trophy Lifting Fatigue). When it comes to
selling inherited players, Benítez was also unlucky to be in a
position to get only £16m in total for Owen and Cissé (whose combined
values were £40m in 2003) due to contract length and horrific injuries
respectively.

Arsene Wenger’s first five seasons resulted in the following
finishes: 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd and 2nd. Very impressive. But ‘only’ one
league title and no other ‘major’ trophies, so while ahead of him on
average league position, on a par with Benítez after just three
seasons in terms of major honours. I also feel that the rival managers
to Ferguson and Wenger at the top of the league in the late ‘90s were
inferior to what we now find: Roy Evans was a great backroom man but
never proved himself as a top-class manager, while Ruud Gullit,
Gianluca Vialli, and David O’Leary are all still relatively young but
unable to get near a top job, having gone into high-profile positions
in the late ‘90s without any real management experience or coaching
pedigree. This was also the era of pre-Roman Abramovich Chelsea.

Wenger’s points tallies in his first five seasons were 68, 78, 78,
73 and 70. Benítez managed a superior 82 in just his second season. It
doesn’t mean that 2006 Liverpool were better than 1998 Arsenal, who
won the league with just 78 points, but it does show, with the use of
those pesky facts, that Benítez is not this naive man who struggles to
win games in the Premier League while Wenger understands everything about
English football. Additionally, in the last two seasons Benítez has
finished above Wenger in the league.

Wenger’s Champions League record is not a patch on Benítez’s. In
just three seasons, Benítez has reached twice the number of finals
(two to one), and unlike Wenger, has actually won one. In 15
successive years of qualifying (in itself a notable achievement),
United have only made it to one solitary final. Until Benítez started
doing so incredibly well in the European Cup, it was seen as being of
massive importance to the big clubs; it may be coincidental, but it’s
as if his success has led critics to downgrade that importance.
Perhaps it’s my paranoia (and not necessarily a fact), but if Alex
Ferguson had made two finals in three years, even his pet labrador
would have been knighted by now.

Benítez has yet to fail to qualify for the Champions League, and
has made the knockout stages for the fourth successive time, halfway
through his fourth year. Before he arrived, Liverpool had failed to
reach the competition at all (2003/04) and gone out in embarrassment
in the group stage the year before (2002/03).

Wenger is a world-class manager, but it does seem strange that he
has somehow ‘never signed a flop’, and that all his young signings
have been ‘inspired’. In July 2007 The Times ran a piece about how
Benítez had pipped Arsenal for Ryan Babel, which also intimated that
Arsenal had lost interest in the Dutchman. Its author, having praised
Wenger’s record in scouting young players as “proven and largely
unblemished”, suggested that: “As a procurer of young talent, Rafael
Benítez’s record has been somewhat hit and miss since he took over as
Liverpool manager three years ago. Daniel Agger, the accomplished
young Denmark defender, may be one of Benítez’s better acquisitions,
but the failures ring a little louder than the successes. Gabriel
Paletta anyone?”

If we’re talking about players in their late teens and early 20s,
then as well as Agger, what about Xabi Alonso, Pepe Reina and Javier
Mascherano, all just 22 when signed? Or Scott Carson, who’s now worth
ten times his original fee? Even Momo Sissoko, whose stock is low at
the moment, had two excellent seasons aged 20 and 21. How does
Paletta’s name, alongside that of the disappointing Mark Gonzalez,
outweigh all the successes when it comes to players aged 22 or under?
Meanwhile, teenagers like Jack Hobbs, Emiliano Insua, Gerardo Bruna,
Marvin Poure, Sebastian Leto and Daniel Pacheco have not had time to
prove themselves; but each has looked the part at either youth or
reserve level. After three and a half years in charge, Wenger had only
fully blooded Anelka and Vieira, while relying heavily on older
players he inherited, like Bergkamp and the back five. Since the
Times’ piece, Babel has proved a big hit at Liverpool, as has another
20-year-old, Lucas Leiva.

Which brings us back to perceptions; or perhaps just
misconceptions. How does the £10-17m failure of José Antonio Reyes, 21
when signed, fit in with this picture of Wenger, the master, and
Benítez, the failure in the art of procuring young talent? Wenger’s
judgement is undoubtedly up there with the very best, but would even
he call his judgement ‘largely unblemished’ when thinking of Cygan,
Stepanovs, Wreh, Diawara, Chukwunyelu-Obinna, Danilevicious, Luzhny,
Volz, van Bronckhurst, Boa Morte, Wright, Jeffers and Wiltord? –– many
of whom were youngsters when they signed for the Gunners, and plenty
of whom weren’t cheap. And the list doesn’t even include those who
came and went without even being noticed, or only proved medium-level
successes, like Senderos.

So, just a few facts to bear in mind, both before and after the United game, about where Benítez ranks against his main rivals at the same stage of their tenures.

Quite simply, Rafa Benítez has to be the man to lead this club forward, for two more seasons at the very least (unless things go really pear-shaped). Arsene Wenger, after one early success, only made Arsenal a truly great side in his 6th season, and Ferguson –– a man who also laboured under two-decades of pressure to win the league title –– took until his 7th to do just that.

If Rafa is going to be under pressure to keep his job following every defeat –– and here I’m only going on what’s said in the papers, which may or may not be reliable –– the club is in grave danger of shooting itself in the foot. All managers lose games; it’s an inescapable part of football. No manager is perfect.

Liverpool FC needs strong and consistent leadership right now. It has it on the pitch and in the dugout, and now is the time to prove that it’s the case behind the scenes, too.

Until genuine peace is officially (and festively) announced at Anfield, I’ll continue to throw a few facts around and call for common sense. I am not saying that anyone within Liverpool’s hierarchy lacks this crucial trait –– in my heart I want to believe they don’t –– but if Rafa is sacked, or made to work under unbearable pressure and with unreasonable demands, then I’ll have to revise that conclusion.

© Paul Tomkins 2007


Another happy clappy article from Tomkins for you to enjoy Sabre

peewee wrote:sorry but i just dont buy into that one, i mean how exactly does it work, so we beat a team that beat us last season then that makes us better, but then if we lose against a team that we beat last season then that makes us worse, how exactly does it work

maguskwt wrote:

Emerald Red wrote:

peewee wrote:sorry but i just dont buy into that one, i mean how exactly does it work, so we beat a team that beat us last season then that makes us better, but then if we lose against a team that we beat last season then that makes us worse, how exactly does it work

People - including well publicized pundits - seem to draw the comparison of Ferguson every time we get a new manager that doesn't deliver the goods in the respective time window of at least three seasons. After those three years are up, however they deduced them in the first place, they keep that trump card of "Oh, but Ferguson took so many years, blah blah blah to do this and now look at them!" Fact is, we'd be folly to believe that. It's almost as if some people think it's a given that if Rafa had the same amount of time as Fergie did, that the same results would take place eventually. Not going to happen IMO. I just think the legacy Ferguson made for himself was built around a long forgotten tradition of bedding in young home grown players and letting them bloom around each other into the professionals they are today. Until we start bringing through more Gerrard's Owen's and Fowler's up through the ranks, then we'll most likely never have stability. Though I'm sure this has been duly noted a million and one times before.

Ferguson's Fledgelings were one batch mate... one batch... who are they relying right now? Ronaldo, Rooney, Hargreaves, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Carrick, Nani, Anderson.... etc etc etc... all bought with top notch dollars...

and why is it 'not going to happen' for Rafa? Even now you can see he's been paying alot of attention to the development of youth players... our reserve team is already looking promising...

when was the last time a liverpool manager looks at all these other aspects?

not being patient enough and sacking managers every 1-3 years is the folly of today's management...

by all means sack the manager if we as liverpool football club is fighting for relegation... but NOT when we're clearly making progress...